The Judging Eye V

[Nerdanel]

Re: Sorweel

If Sorweel is indeed the White-Luck Warrior the aging would have been a purely spiritual in nature, giving him more maturity without changing his physical appearance. Nannaferi thinks earlier in the chapter that Yatwer is about giving, not give-and-take. The ritual looks to be directly against that. Would Yatwer really exchange years of life for experience? I think it would be more in the style of giving to make Nannaferi young and beautiful and Sorweel mentally mature at the same time, with neither suffering any ill effects. Did Nannaferi become young and stupid or just young?

Re: Mekeritrig

If you are thinking about the scene in the beginning of TTT where Akka dreams of the wall of the dead in Dagliash, it doesn't mean anything that he recognized Mekeritrig there. It's unlikely that there were many Nonmen Ishroi around to confuse him with. Things like location and behavior can help a lot with that kind of thing. Of course it does leave one open to say, Mekeritrig changing places with another Nonman with a deep Mark, but most of the time what would be the point?

By the way, I have prosopagnosia and it's given me less trouble than you might think.

Re: Erratic

The idea is that Erraticism is a progressive condition. Both Akka and Kellhus seem more short-tempered and prone to solving problems by throwing destructive magic at them in this book. However, becoming a full-blown Erratic like Mekeritrig takes far more magic use than normally happens in a single mortal lifespan. Kellhus with his second inutteral is a special case, and he's using magic constantly too, which could explain his rapid personality change.

My earlier observation about the Seswatha dreams was explicitly confirmed in this book: the dreams are about the most traumatic parts of Seswatha's life while the other parts are curiously absent. Perhaps the traumatic parts are all that Seswatha now remembers? By the way, I think the "mundane" Seswatha dreams Akka has in TJE were plausible fakes sent by Mekeritrig in order to send Akka on his quest without making him suspicious.

[Rhadamanth]

I used to think Mekeritrig was Cleric but the evidence is against this. Mekeritrig is far too insane to be Cleric who seems much less erratic than Mekeritrig was when we last saw him in his battle against Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness.

I like your ideas Nerdanel, but I don't think they are quite right. The No-God, IMHO, doesn't possess the ability to affect the world like you think. I think of him as almost a force of nature, unthinking (mostly) and really powerful. If you wish to find a spider at the center of your web, there are really only three choices: Kellhus, the Consult, and now the Gods. Kellhus seems the most likely choice because of his intellect, which looks to surpass even the Gods. His motives are the most mysterious as well. We know the Gods are mainly trying to keep their power and the Consult is trying to save their souls. Kellhus actually seems to be duplicating his mastery of the Holy War, just on a much larger scale. Hmmm... gotta think about this some more.

[Jacen]

Please let Cleric be Ninjanjin. He's gotta be the leader in the clubhouse. As Kal said, it ain't Mek.

I haven't followed this thread in MONTHS and we are still talking about that?

We need the new book Scott!

[Nerdanel]

I changed my mind. After a night's sleep to reorganize my brain, I now think the unnamed man in Iothiah is the White-Luck Warrior. The collapsing building with the woman and the baby was about the death's of the man's wife and infant child. This shook the man enough to go meekly along with the ritual.

Yatwer is all about (supposedly) unconditional giving by OTHER PEOPLE, making her just like Kellhus in that respect. According to TTT, she doesn't give her reward in the afterlife to just anyone and tilling the soil requires tons of work... I'm thinking the Fanim could have been right about her, and Nannaferi is just a fanatic and in the wrong.

--

I think you shouldn't exclude the possibility of other manipulators besides Kellhus, the Consult, and the Gods. (Although I think Mekeritrig is currently working for the No-God. so that might count.)

Who did Kellhus meet on the road that changed his worldview and thus future path crucially? Mekeritrig.

Why was Kellhus sent from Ishuäl? Moënghus summoned him. Why was Moënghus there to summon him? He had been exiled from Ishuäl. Why was Moënghus exiled from Ishuäl? He had been considered tainted by the outside world. How did Moënghus get tainted by the outside world? He was sent to investigate the threat to their isolation after some Sranc intruded and apparently found something that didn't fit the Dûnyain worldview. (Mekeritrig?) How did the Sranc intrude past the magic protecting Ishuäl? It could have been chance, depending on how the wards work, but it's more likely that they were led by someone who knew how to get past the wards but didn't show himself to be attacked. I suspect that was Mekeritrig again.

How did the Dûnyain get to Ishuäl? The coincidence of it all would be too big to be believed, so I think they were led. Led by whom? Remember that Mekeritrig has been known to lead people, like the Mangaecca, past glamour wards, so he could have done it.

Where do the Dûnyain come from? Their philosophy is foreign to both human and Nonman lines of thought from that time period. However, Achamian notices a connection to Cleric's philosophy. Cleric is certainly old enough to have been alive at the time to found the Dûnyain, and I think Cleric is Mekeritrig.

And why don't the Consult know about the Dûnyain? Simple. Mekeritrig hasn't told them. He might not have even told them that he doesn't work for them any more.

[red snow]

If I were to bet on the identity of the White-luck Warrior my money would be on Sorweel but not because of a "long distence blessing" (great phrase Nerdanel). If he's not, then something worthwhile has to happen to him. The scene where the priestess gets her youth back is up there with the first Consult scene in terms of WTFery, and therefore open to a few interpretations, but I think it was just another front of Yatwer's plans.

I never even considered the fact that Kellhus was able to kill someone wearing a chorae with magic. It could be that he has developed a new type of magic of his own - a bit like the cishaurim but better. I tend to think that the chorae is more symbolic of manifest superstition (a popular theme in the series) whereby the belief that chorae works is the reason they work. Maybe Kellhus with his intellect and will has decided "Chorae can't affect me" and so they do? I always thought it was slightly odd how Mimara had no real problem with the chorae (although maybe her basic training wasn't enough to trigger the effects). There's a whole lot going on with Mimara and her judging eye though.

[Nerdanel]

Kellhus is still affected by Chorae. Sorweel sees that his arm has salted somewhat when he sees him for the first time. I just think Kellhus's magic can affect people wearing Chorae, which is a different thing. Mimara hadn't actually cast a spell by herself yet. She had learned some of the basics that would eventually allow her to cast a spell, but language training doesn't leave a Mark. She even explicitly thinks about that.

I don't think simple belief can make one immune to Chorae. If that was the case, someone delusional would already have stumbled into it. In general, I don't think belief defines reality in Eärwa.

Just think the Wight-in-the-Mountain. I think a Ciphrang like him has the power to override the local reality of the Outside to suit his (insane) whim. The wishes of the living masses of the Three Seas don't get to it, and the Wight-in-the-Mountain is strong enough to override the wills of the lesser dead and most intruding mortals from affecting the surroundings, in effect making the lesser souls his playthings. The only thing that can override his will is a greater will, like one of the big gods, coming near.

By the way, I wonder if there will ever be a scene where Kellhus travels to the Outside to kill Yatwer and finds out that the "Goddess" is actually a male pretending to be female for PR reasons. That could certainly explain a little something about Yatwer's patriarchal bent...

[Happy Ent]

I just think Kellhus's magic can affect people wearing Chorae, which is a different thing.

Could you explain why you think this? I’d never come across the idea before.

[Nerdanel]

Could you explain why you think this? I’d never come across the idea before.

It's either that or a continuity error.

Sorweel thinks that his father was killed by sorcerous fire, although he doesn't get to witness it. The chances that Harweel was wearing a Chorae are about 100%, as he is the King of Sakarpus (of the Chorae Hoard fame) and would have prepared himself appropriately. Thus either Bakker forgot about Harweel wearing a Chorae or Kellhus was able to affect him despite it.

By the way, I've noticed that most people don't like Sorweel that much. I'm the exception. I can really connect with Sorweel while Mimara leaves me cold.

[Happy Ent]

Thus either Bakker forgot about Harweel wearing a Chorae or Kellhus was able to affect him despite it.

— but Sorweel, not Bakker, seems to be making the mistake.

Anyway, could you point us to the passage? I’m really curious, and can’t find it. I do note that Kellhus attacks Sorweel’s bodygard with a sword, instead of just blasting him to pieces, which would have been a lot more sensible. Even the short-range contact with the bodyguard seems to be enough to salt Kellhus’s bare sword hand, so why not just fireball the man? (Or is all of Kellhus salting because of the Chorae worn by Sorweel?)

[jurble]

By the way, I wonder if there will ever be a scene where Kellhus travels to the Outside to kill Yatwer and finds out that the "Goddess" is actually a male pretending to be female for PR reasons. That could certainly explain a little something about Yatwer's patriarchal bent...

...what?

Cleric is not Mekeritig, that is impossible.

Erraticism is not caused by magic use, it's caused by having your wives and daughters entirely wiped out, along with losing your friends through centuries of war, along with the development of what appears to be a mild form of what the dude from Memento had. I wouldn't be surprised if the the womb plague induced psychosis in Nonmen.

Mekeritig is most definitely insane, and probably spends his time riding around the area of Golgotterath killing humans for fun and cutting off their faces.

My wild the No-God = Su'juroit (of the two inutterals fame) theory is looking a lot more plausible now that we got to meet the Wight-in-the-Mountain.

What? The No-God is a creation. He was built by the Consult. The Wight-in-the-Mountain is just a ghost. The souls of the dead go to the Outside when they die. If the outside is like a film overtop reality, then souls take the shortest path. Since the place was a Topos, it was actually the Outside leaking into reality. When the Non-man king died, his soul didn't fly off anywhere - it didn't have to, since he effectively died in the Outside.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Re: Sorweel

If Sorweel is indeed the White-Luck Warrior the aging would have been a purely spiritual in nature, giving him more maturity without changing his physical appearance. Nannaferi thinks earlier in the chapter that Yatwer is about giving, not give-and-take. The ritual looks to be directly against that. Would Yatwer really exchange years of life for experience? I think it would be more in the style of giving to make Nannaferi young and beautiful and Sorweel mentally mature at the same time, with neither suffering any ill effects. Did Nannaferi become young and stupid or just young?

What evidence do we have that Sorweel suddenly gained experience and/or maturity? None.

The man in Iothiah gave his youth to Nannaferi without receiving anything in return. He, and not Nannaferi, was the embodiment of the ideology of Yatwer in this case.

Re: Mekeritrig

If you are thinking about the scene in the beginning of TTT where Akka dreams of the wall of the dead in Dagliash, it doesn't mean anything that he recognized Mekeritrig there. It's unlikely that there were many Nonmen Ishroi around to confuse him with. Things like location and behavior can help a lot with that kind of thing. Of course it does leave one open to say, Mekeritrig changing places with another Nonman with a deep Mark, but most of the time what would be the point?

A few things here. First, the inability of Men to perceive the faces of Nonmen as different is totally subjective. Akka, as a Mandate Schoolman, has a lot of experience with Nonmen. Most Men do not. It logically follows that he is able to distinguish them, and if not by face, then by mannerisms and voice.

Second, Mek is not Nin-janjin. He is, according to the index of TTT, Cet'ingira. Cleric being Nin-janjin is a theory, but an extremely plausible and well-founded one. Further, Mek is extremely unstable, was last seen in the far far north, and was accompanied by Sranc. The chances of him acquiring normalcy, or even the facade thereof, and sticking with the Skin-Eaters are almost too minuscule to measure. Possible, I suppose, but I'd be reallyyyyy surprised.

Re: Erratic

The idea is that Erraticism is a progressive condition. Both Akka and Kellhus seem more short-tempered and prone to solving problems by throwing destructive magic at them in this book. However, becoming a full-blown Erratic like Mekeritrig takes far more magic use than normally happens in a single mortal lifespan. Kellhus with his second inutteral is a special case, and he's using magic constantly too, which could explain his rapid personality change.

From what we've seen, even if you are correct it would have to take hundreds of years. Our brains, especially a superhuman one like Kell's, is designed on some level to store the memories of a human lifetime. The Nonmen became Erratic, I believe, because they had outlived their natural lifespans to the point that they were no longer able to store any but the strongest memories, and those memories were the memories of pain, betrayal, and despair.

My earlier observation about the Seswatha dreams was explicitly confirmed in this book: the dreams are about the most traumatic parts of Seswatha's life while the other parts are curiously absent. Perhaps the traumatic parts are all that Seswatha now remembers? By the way, I think the "mundane" Seswatha dreams Akka has in TJE were plausible fakes sent by Mekeritrig in order to send Akka on his quest without making him suspicious.

Sewatha's dreams recount only the horrible things because those are precisely the things he was warning about. It wouldn't exactly instill a fear of the Second Apocalypse to dream of Seswatha trimming his toenails night after night.

As for the second thought of yours, we have no evidence of any kind to suggest that it is true or even plausible, and I will leave it at that.

I think you shouldn't exclude the possibility of other manipulators besides Kellhus, the Consult, and the Gods. (Although I think Mekeritrig is currently working for the No-God. so that might count.)

*snip*

And why don't the Consult know about the Dûnyain? Simple. Mekeritrig hasn't told them. He might not have even told them that he doesn't work for them any more.

That is a lot of assuming, and we've no evidence that any of it is true. The biggest hole in it is that Mekeritrig would have had to know of Ishual and its whereabouts for any of this to be true, and there's nothing to suggest that this is the case. Ishual was perfectly hidden, discoverable only by chance, it would seem. As for the original Dunyain, my theory is that they simply followed the royal party and then waited for an opportunity to enter, which they found after the plague devastated Ishual's populace.

It's either that or a continuity error.

Not necessarily.

Sorweel thinks that his father was killed by sorcerous fire, although he doesn't get to witness it. The chances that Harweel was wearing a Chorae are about 100%, as he is the King of Sakarpus (of the Chorae Hoard fame) and would have prepared himself appropriately. Thus either Bakker forgot about Harweel wearing a Chorae or Kellhus was able to affect him despite it.

Harweel was last seen near the gates, fighting amongst the priests of Gilgaol against Kellhus. Sorcerous fire near massive stone gates could destroy those gates, sleeting stone all over everyone, including Harweel. Chorae don't protect well against falling rocks.

That's just one possibility. I've always wondered why Chorae were such an impediment to sorcerers, anyway. Why not just fling some spears at the Chorae wielders from a mile away? Once the magic has propelled something, it is moving on its own and Chorae shouldn't stop it.

[jurble]

I think most Sorcerers don't have that sort of finesse (Anagogics) or if they do (Gnosis users), they generally use their weird as lazer light shows more effectively. However, Inrau's whole pulling a heart out of a chest, I think that sort of thing would work regardless if you were wearing a Chorae.

Kellhus does use that debris shield against Chorae. The Chorae hit the debris, and do nothing, object in motion stays in motion and all. So the concept is there.

[Nerdanel]

I'm going to have to check on the Sorweel quote to see if I misremembered, but not now, as I don't have the book with me.

...what?

Cleric is not Mekeritig, that is impossible.

Erraticism is not caused by magic use, it's caused by having your wives and daughters entirely wiped out, along with losing your friends through centuries of war, along with the development of what appears to be a mild form of what the dude from Memento had. I wouldn't be surprised if the the womb plague induced psychosis in Nonmen.

Mekeritig is most definitely insane, and probably spends his time riding around the area of Golgotterath killing humans for fun and cutting off their faces.

Mekeritrig seems coherent enough to function in the Seswatha dream at the beginning of TTT. On the other hand, Cleric certainly is not devoid of nuttiness. Mekeritrig somehow managed to be a high-ranking Consult member, so he couldn't have lost it completely, at least during the First Apocalypse, but it has been only mere 2000 years since that.

But really, we are reading a series with a great emphasis on subtle manipulation, which means that appearances are suspect. Mekeritrig could have acted a tad crazier than he really was in the scene with Kellhus so that Kellhus would later see him as Generic Nonman Erratic #1 instead of one of the powers of the world and therefore a rival, as Kellhus wants to manipulate others, not himself be manipulated.

What? The No-God is a creation. He was built by the Consult.

Are you sure about that? I remember there was something about him having been summoned.

The Wight-in-the-Mountain is just a ghost. The souls of the dead go to the Outside when they die. If the outside is like a film overtop reality, then souls take the shortest path. Since the place was a Topos, it was actually the Outside leaking into reality. When the Non-man king died, his soul didn't fly off anywhere - it didn't have to, since he effectively died in the Outside.

If the Wight-in-the-Mountain is "just a ghost" he's a remarkably powerful one. In fact, I'd go as far as say that there's no difference between a ghost like him and a demon lord.

And I do think the No-God transitioned into the Outside. I think the process of summoning him went as follows:

1. The Consult gets a ton of captives and brings them to Golgotterath.

2. The Consult gets serious about making the captives as miserable as possible.

3. When enough suffering has accumulated, a topos gradually forms, Cil-Aujas style but if anything, worse.

4. With a door to Hell fully open, the Consult nicely asks the most powerful demon lord they could find, the damned spirit of Su'juroit, to walk through and he accepts.

5. The Consult puts Su'juroit into an elaborate protective shell since it would be really awkward if he were to be re-killed all of a sudden.

6. Su'juroit assumes control of the Consult by the virtue of being stronger than all of them put together. However, since he is a Nonman Erratic despite his great intelligence, he doesn't want to do the sensible thing and wait for the humans to die out. This eventually gets him lasered by the Heron Spear and sent back to Hell.

[Curethan]

So we have seen what Yatwer has been up to in TJE. Gilgaol popped up towards the end of TTT, piggybacking on Cnaiur. That leaves Husyelt as the only other god with a signicant entry in the glossary who hasn't shown up in the narrative yet. He's described as exteremly anthropocentric so I expect that I may have missed some foreshadowing or subtle machinations. Any ideas?

[Kalbear]

Mekeritrig seems coherent enough to function in the Seswatha dream at the beginning of TTT. On the other hand, Cleric certainly is not devoid of nuttiness. Mekeritrig somehow managed to be a high-ranking Consult member, so he couldn't have lost it completely, at least during the First Apocalypse, but it has been only mere 2000 years since that.

Yes, he was vaguely functional 2000 years ago.

Grats, that's a real slam dunk, that.

Also: the WLW did get something. He gained experience. That was the point of the ritual; a young strong man wasn't going to be enough going up against Kellhus. They needed someone with experience and old wounds and real strength. That's what he gained. Nannaferi getting younger was actually something of a detriment; she was giving up that experience. She's the giving one here. The WLW simply took.

5. The Consult puts Su'juroit into an elaborate protective shell since it would be really awkward if he were to be re-killed all of a sudden.

6. Su'juroit assumes control of the Consult by the virtue of being stronger than all of them put together. However, since he is a Nonman Erratic despite his great intelligence, he doesn't want to do the sensible thing and wait for the humans to die out. This eventually gets him lasered by the Heron Spear and sent back to Hell.

Easily disproven:

Demons are subject to salt via chorae.

The No-God was surrounded by chorae. Thus, any power it did have would instantly be dissipated if it were magical (much like Su'juroit's was) and there's a good chance that he'd just be salted.

Thus, No-God can't be that.

Furthermore the characteristics are all wrong; Suj knew exactly who and what he was. What does the No-God think he is?

Really, Nerdanel, I wonder if you're reading the same books I am.

[Ski the Swift]

So we have seen what Yatwer has been up to in TJE. Gilgaol popped up towards the end of TTT, piggybacking on Cnaiur. That leaves Husyelt as the only other god with a signicant entry in the glossary who hasn't shown up in the narrative yet. He's described as exteremly anthropocentric so I expect that I may have missed some foreshadowing or subtle machinations. Any ideas?

Gilgaol? God damnit I miss too much when I read. What happened there?

[Curethan]

Gilgaol? God damnit I miss too much when I read. What happened there?

Eh, it was pretty low key. Cnauir was pretty much channelling Gilgaol when he and Conphas faced of the last time, doing some inhuman slaying and scaring opponents with his 'aspect' after completely flipping out while exhorting his men with a rant that pretty much ecompassed any war-gods absolute tenets. It wasn't explicit but was clearly implied.

[Nerdanel]

Yes, he was vaguely functional 2000 years ago.

Grats, that's a real slam dunk, that.

Here is my suggested and highly speculative sequence of events:

1. A Nonman called Cet'ingira is born in Viri.

2. Cet'ingira becomes the king of Viri and takes the royal name of Nin'janjin where "Nin" or "Nil" is a prefix commonly seen in royal names and might mean "king" and "janjin" is probably something sufficiently lofty.

3. The Inchoroi arrive. Cûjara Cinmoi conquers Viri. Nin'janjin remains a king but now he is subject to another.

4. Nin'janjin allies with the Inchoroi and tries to overthrow Cûjara Cinmoi. This fails, and Nin'janjin escapes to the Inchoroi.

5. After many years, Nin'janjin returns to Cûjara Cinmoi as an immortal.

6. The Womb-Plague happens. Nin'janjin kills Cûjara Cinmoi and, as an early sign of mental problems, takes the head as a memento.

7. Nin'janjin sees the tide of war turning against the Inchoroi and switches sides, claiming to have been deceived by the Inchoroi. He is taken in at Cil-Aujas, the ruler of which had also been a subject of Cûjara Cinmoi's. Lacking kingship, Nin'janjin now calls himself Cet'ingira again.

8. The humans arrive. Cet'ingira takes part in the Nonman Tutelage, as he enjoys watching and guiding the Becoming. He is also starting to enjoy the cruelties and the betrayals the humans inflict on each other, although he keeps that well hidden.

9. Cet'ingira leads the Mangaecca to Golgotterath through the glamor hiding it. He becomes a part of what will be known as the Consult.

10. Cet'ingira founds in secret the Dûnyain sect based on an original philosophy formulated by himself. He keeps that secret even from the Consult.

11. As his trusted friend, Cet'ingira learns about Ishuäl from Anasûrimbor Celmomas.

12. The Apocalypse begins. Cet'ingira is given the name Mekeritrig when his treachery comes to light.

13. Mekeritrig makes use of his Dûnyain followers for spying, sabotage, and assassination. This has a large effect on the war but the Dûnyain remain undiscovered.

14. Mekeritrig (personally or by proxy) convinces the Bardic Priest that his pedophilic urges aren't sinful if everyone except he and his victim are dead. The path to happy non-sinning is thus to kill everyone when in the safety of Ishuäl.

15. Mekeritrig guides his Dûnyain to the conveniently-empty and undefended Ishuäl. Mekeritrig has set up the Dûnyain philosophy so that they will intentionally forget magic and start a breeding program to improve themselves.

16. Mekeritrig hunts humans with the Sranc for fun.

17. Mekeritrig decides that enough time has passed and guides some Sranc to Ishuäl through the glamor.

18. Mekeritrig meets Moënghus.

19. Mekeritrig, being aware of the political situation in the Three Seas and elsewhere through his Consult connections, anticipates that Moënghus will eventually call for reinforcements and waits around the expected path from Ishuäl, killing humans with his Sranc.

20. Mekeritrig meets Kellhus and gains a very accurate assessment of his strength.

21. Mekeritrig sends a carefully-calculated number of Sranc to nearly kill Kellhus and completely kill his followers at exactly the right barrow.

22. Mekeritrig switches to hunting Sranc with humans. He uses the fake name Incariol and wears a hood to keep his identity from getting discovered. The Skin Eaters name him Cleric for his philosophical leanings.

23. Cleric sends a series of dreams, ostensibly about Seswatha's mundane life, to Achamian over several years. He is able to do that due to his memories of Ancient North and him having been at Achamian's tower at one point.

24. Cleric tells the Skin Eaters, feigning idle conversation, about a great treasure in the Sohonc Coffers. He sends a fake dream about Ishuäl to Achamian. He correctly anticipates that Achamian will use the Coffers as his cover story.

25. Cleric sets on a journey to the Ancient North with Achamian and the other Skin Eaters. He is surprised by Mimara's appearance, which wasn't anticipated by him.

26. A snowed-in pass threatens to destroy Cleric's timetable, so he suggests going through Cil-Aujas.

27. Cleric tries to interrogate Achamian about Mimara in a fake Seswatha dream. This fails.

28. As the going gets tough, Cleric ends up revealing more of his fighting prowess than he had planned to.

29. In a lull between fighting Sranc, Cleric sends Achamian a fake Seswatha dream that mentions the Sohonc Coffers.

Not included: Mekeritrig says he fought against the No-God at some point, but it isn't clear when in his life that was. It's possible that it was very early against a living Su'juroit.

Also: the WLW did get something. He gained experience. That was the point of the ritual; a young strong man wasn't going to be enough going up against Kellhus. They needed someone with experience and old wounds and real strength. That's what he gained. Nannaferi getting younger was actually something of a detriment; she was giving up that experience. She's the giving one here. The WLW simply took.

It looks like the young man lost years remaining to him before his death from old age and Nannaferi gained them.

Easily disproven:

Demons are subject to salt via chorae.

The No-God was surrounded by chorae. Thus, any power it did have would instantly be dissipated if it were magical (much like Su'juroit's was) and there's a good chance that he'd just be salted.

Thus, No-God can't be that.

Furthermore the characteristics are all wrong; Suj knew exactly who and what he was. What does the No-God think he is?

Really, Nerdanel, I wonder if you're reading the same books I am.

Achamian thinks that they would have all been taken to Hell, Chorae or no Chorae, if Mimara hadn't done her trick, and then there's the possibility that the No-God was indeed vulnerable to Chorae, but the physical carapace shielded him from them. Was the choric script on the carapace forming a Chorae-nullifying field? Anti-anti-magic? I think the No-God is not so much like a standard Ciphrang summoned by someone like Iyokus but more like the Wight-in-the-Mountain possessing Cleric. Just imagine the power level as much higher, as Su'juroit could use two inutterals in life. (We know that Gin'yursis was a sorcerer, by the way. His greatest student founded Mangaecca.) TWP had a line about sorcerers being worth a thousand sinners in Hell, and that's presumably about ordinary Anagogic sorcerers...

We know extremely little about Su'juroit. In particular, there has been no mention of his sanity. If my theories are correct, Su'juroit would have been able to become an Erratic within the Nonman lifespan.

I for one think Bakker is a sneaky author and the reader must be equally sneaky to anticipate him. A major theme in the books is that one must not rely on surface impressions. I think the No-God had an intentionally misleading introduction, but an analysis of how he features in the rest of the text speaks against a mindless construct and for an intelligent evil entity.

[drl84]

I for one think Bakker is a sneaky author and the reader must be equally sneaky to anticipate him. A major theme in the books is that one must not rely on surface impressions. I think the No-God had an intentionally misleading introduction, but an analysis of how he features in the rest of the text speaks against a mindless construct and for an intelligent evil entity.

Though Bakker is a smart devil, I think you really are reading too much into this, especially for a first read through.

This is all a bit . . . disjointed at times. We do not have enough information about the Wright-in-the-mountain yet to compare to something as . . . vast and void as the No-God was, is.

As someone else previously mentioned, the entire damn place is a topos that is leaking evil, but is contained to a specific area (Like the battle-plains). Unlike the battle plains, the ghost remembers and has taken a host, thus becoming indepented OF the topos (That we know of).

For the No-God to be related to this, it would have had some even more specific random events to have occured for it to have broken through the outside; retained it's memories of a past life; retained memories of an individual of great power; possessed said individual; marched upon the countries of humanity and the Non-men; killed by the Heron Spear; repeat cycle; bake cookies.

I'll have to say, excpet for the last point made, it would be pretty rare for these events to occur. If not then the Consult should give up their day job of being evil and just gamble.

[Deluge]

Kinda derailing the discussion here, but the mention of Nin'janjin and Cu'jara Cinmoi (fuck, do we ever need nicknames for them. Henceforth, I will be referring to them as Ninja and CC) made me remember that CC really comes off as a complete bastard in the backstory. Ninja sends him a call for aid, and CC responds by stealing Ninja's country? Maybe Nonman culture is much different than ours, but when Ninja shows up again with the Inchoroi I would have absolutely been expecting a stab in the back. I hope that there's either a lot more to the story, or that Nonmen think about betrayal and loyalty in completely alien terms.