The Judging Eye V

[Curethan]

Do not confuse the words "objective" and "Objectivist". The two don't have anything to do with each other. "Objectivism" is called that for the same reason the Dûnyain are calling their philosophy the Truth - as a rhetorical trick. Both philosophies make a big deal about rationality and logic but have a strict dogma that may not be questioned. Objectivism is very inaccurately named indeed, since it is all about agreeing with and idolizing Ayn Rand.

I am most definitely not an Objectivist. I think good and evil are highly abstract notions that are the same everywhere in the universe in their abstract form yet highly situation-dependent in their concrete form. More accurately, if we gave a complete concrete description of good and evil for all places, times, and thinking species, it would be ridiculously long and full of exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions - far too complex to ever be actually written in real life, let alone be written without errors arising from biases, faulty logic, and plain not considering everything.

I apologise for this. You are quite correct and I completely used the wrong term there. I meant to refer to absolutism, and even there Goodkind definately tends more towards relativism than yourself. Also note that I do not disagree with your morals, merely their nature as personal concepts vs universal truths.

Excuse my vehement reaction, its just that I loathe the character of Richard Rahl (his ideals and arrogance are anethma to myself) and do think Kellhus is rather awesome (his dedication to his objective and ability to master circumstance appeal to my sense of logic and sense of helplessness before my emotions and predispisition).

On the other hand I agree that Kelhus's actions have clearly had 'evil' effects on the characters we identify with (based on our sympathy for their moral standpoints).

Interesting aside: we don't care when Kellhus undermines and destroy's Conphas' ambitions as we agree that they are evil, however his manipulations of Akka and Esme outrage us as we all uphold the netural course of love as good and pure to some extent. Note how easy it is to judge the latter acts as evil and yet our amibivilence to award 'good' points for his subversion on Conphas.

I don't begrudge you or anyone the objective standpoint that good and evil are absolutes, indeed I hold them as absolute within my own viewpoint. I only hope to convice you to allow that my alternative is also a valid system and that it is very likely shared by Scott and to include that in your theories because this is most often where I usually find objectional fault with them.

I argue this because of his themes in general and also my old favourite:

Specifically, I’m interested in what it means to live in a world where value is objective - which is to say, to live in the kind of world our ancestors thought they lived in. Could you imagine, for instance, what it would mean to live in a world where, say, the social and spiritual inferiority of women was a fact like the atomic weight of uranium. Biblical Israel was such as world, as were many others.

Which suggests that objective values are something he is interested in but does not hold to be true in our world (or why explore it through fantasy fiction?). In this instance you see Kellhus as truley evil and hold that he is intentionally so such because he is written from an objective standpoint and thus the ultimate antagonist. I am of the opinion that the Consult are clearly written as objectively evil and are definately intended as the antagonists of the series. Kellhus is the thematic focus and an important part of examining Bakker's fascinating world but as far as Akka and the protaginists are concerned is really more of a MacGuffin, especially in TJE. Most of his pov's in PoN served only to illustrate the nature of the Dunyain and the machinations of the consult and Moenghus. I think a lot of people have been non-plussed by this 'character who isn't a character'.

For me, he is instead a primarily a device embodying the relativist zeitgiest of our own age inserted in this objectivly polarised world. He is an ammoral force akin to corporate forces, political agendas etc. There is an intentional counterpoint between the good of his motivating objective and the evils that his direct methods wreak amongst the individuals he manipulates to achieve it. Whether the reader sees judges him as good or evil is subjective, the narrative offers evidence to support either... I believe its a question that may never be answered explicitly within the narrative.

Oh dear, it appears I have gotten carried away again ... sorry 8o

But yeh, really sorry bout the insulting label - totally unintentional

[Curethan]

Scott, is that you?

:P

Flattered, but I'm in no way worthy.

Sorry bout the doublepost, I haven't mastered multiquote.

Back on the 'Consult' are shit strategists topic. I don't think we can really make that conclusion because there is too much we don't know. Seems just as likely that the No-god got toasted at Mengeda because we needed a topos there for the events in PoN. Turns out that makes the Consult look dumb.

I don't buy that assertion though, I think its a hasty judgement based on uncertain data.

I also don't buy that the no-god is a broken record type conciousness or vegetative supertard. We know that he eat souls and comments on their taste, possesses and co-ordinates large numbers of sranc etc and even Aurang is afraid of how no-god might deal with him because of the way he failed as a general. He's defininately inscrutable and scary as all hell to men, but I think his famous questions may be a phsychic barrage against the ego or id of ensouled beings.

[Nerdanel]

The thing about Kellhus and Conphas is that they are very very similar characters. The big difference between then is that Kellhus is a lot more competent. Conphas is basically a human-scale Kellhus.

Specifically, I’m interested in what it means to live in a world where value is objective - which is to say, to live in the kind of world our ancestors thought they lived in. Could you imagine, for instance, what it would mean to live in a world where, say, the social and spiritual inferiority of women was a fact like the atomic weight of uranium. Biblical Israel was such as world, as were many others.

I think this is a very important quote that mean two things.

A. Good and Evil have a real existence beyond abstractions, and that is a scientific fact. You can cast Detect Evil or Detect Good and the result will be accurate and in line with the objective morality. This is the D&D way.

B. The God decides what is Good and Evil. This is the Christian way, where "sin" is defined as "anything God disapproves".

I used to think that Eärwa worked according to A but now I'm starting to lean towards B. However, I don't think true objective morality can be dictated by anyone, not even a god. I think the true objective morality is abstract and changeless, just like 2 + 2 = 4. I don't think a god can change objective morality any more than he could create a square circle or something else logically impossible.

If B is indeed the case, I expect an overt collision between the God's subjective morality and the true universal objective morality. Based on the patterns in the series titles, I've earlier speculated that the third, spoilerous series name will be The Anti-God...

[gladius]

Conphas is basically a human-scale Kellhus.

with an extreme case of narcissism :P

[Curethan]

The thing about Kellhus and Conphas is that they are very very similar characters. The big difference between then is that Kellhus is a lot more competent. Conphas is basically a human-scale Kellhus.

I intended to compare differing reactions to the way Kellhus does the same type of things to Akka and Conphas, but yeah. They certainly are similar in a more than a few ways. Though they exhibit similar behavioural profiles through personal interactions, the important difference is that Kelhus is trained to be without emotion (which precludes empathy) whereas Conphas is a psychotic, 'naturaly' unable to empathize but still possesed by emotion and self-delusion - he does have a type of warped, completely self centred morality. Also they both can only interact with other people through manipulation because of this shared lack. That certainly enables either of them to perform evil acts without compunction but only Conphas could provide evil motivation.

Mr Spock from Star Trek is a similar character too, however he is sympatheticly depicted as being empathic and strongly emotional beneath his emotionless facade. Still, he is the character that can be depended upon to conclude upon the logical (but heartless if not evil) resolution to a difficult problem.

Kelhuss walked conditioned ground right up until the end of TTT, now he's in control (and apparently mad) but he still seems to be serving TTT(i.e. he was fulfilling a role and achieving the objectives he had been set by others). We don't really know who or what is really driving his agenda now, because he gets no PoV.

Some options:

• He's grown a soft little heart and wants to save the world from the consult fo' realz
  
• He sees the consult as an obstacle to world domination.
  
• He's nuts and is going to force the consult to join his prog jazz rock ensemble
  
• He's down with the no-god
  

Join the fun and add your own :P

[Relic]

with an extreme case of narcissism :P

Kellhus has that too.

[Nerdanel]

Kellhus and Conphas did have similar training. It just was much more institutionalized in the case of Kellhus. Istriya specifically wanted to raise Conphas in the imperial court so that he could learn its ways. Considering that jnan is central to how the nobility socializes, Conphas would have learned to hide his true motives and manipulate the others. I've even been thinking that "jnan" is a corruption of "Dûnyain" based on the similarity in names and content.

Both characters have also been moving in a similar direction. Before he died, Conphas thought he was a god and was planning to declare himself as the Aspect-Emperor and conquer the Three Seas - something that he could very well have done if it wasn't for Kellhus, even if he would have done it slower than Kellhus. We haven't had a Kellhus POV lately, but based on how he bought into his prophet status, it's rather likely that nowadays he thinks himself a living god. And based on the current plot developments, he could very well end up having to taste the humble pie if the war goes badly.

On the emotion front, I think the Dûnyain actually have strong emotions, but keep them bottled up. Kellhus is not as unemotional as he thinks he is, and in TJE we saw signs of a possible anger management problem. For example, if he had kept a cool head, Kellhus would perhaps have decided to interrogate the skin-spy he found instead of blasting it to fine dust with his magic. Then we have the case of Moënghus of whose strength in the Water we have conflicting information. When Kellhus reasoned that the Dûnyain lack of emotions made Moënghus a weak Cishaurim, Kellhus may have fallen victim to false but flattering notions about himself. Moënghus didn't gainsay him, but since I think he was planning to fake his own death, it was only to his advantage to leave Kellhus to his delusions.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

On the emotion front, I think the Dûnyain actually have strong emotions, but keep them bottled up. Kellhus is not as unemotional as he thinks he is, and in TJE we saw signs of a possible anger management problem. For example, if he had kept a cool head, Kellhus would perhaps have decided to interrogate the skin-spy he found instead of blasting it to fine dust with his magic. Then we have the case of Moënghus of whose strength in the Water we have conflicting information. When Kellhus reasoned that the Dûnyain lack of emotions made Moënghus a weak Cishaurim, Kellhus may have fallen victim to false but flattering notions about himself. Moënghus didn't gainsay him, but since I think he was planning to fake his own death, it was only to his advantage to leave Kellhus to his delusions.

Kellhus' reaction to seeing Serwe raped proves that this is untrue. He feels something, but has no idea what it is, and even then it is only vestigial. The Dunyain have literally had the emotion bred and trained out of them, it would seem. There is no great well of emotion going on under the surface of Kellhus.

As for the skin-spy, we already know that they can't be broken for information. It took Moe years and years to be able to extract any information from the one he had, time that Kellhus simply didn't have. Killing the thing in a spectacular way confirmed his image in the minds of those men watching.

[Rhadamanth]

I am rereading Dune so maybe this is related to that, but I wonder if the Dunyain have separate breeding schemes like the Bene Gesserit had/have. This line has this enhancement and these defects but if you combine it with this line one could eliminate the defects, etc. I think they would have to. It wouldn't take them long to figure out the patterns of inheritance and use that to enhance their progeny. Perhaps that is why they still use the Anasurimbor name rather than discard it as they have discarded almost everything else. One of the Kellhus POVs mention that he had normal emotions as a child but they were being trained out of him. I wonder if another bloodline (assuming there are any since there didn't seem to be enough people but I could be wrong) has even less. This leads me to the question of whether Kellhus possessed some defect that made him more likely to break from his conditioning or did Moenghus' Thousandfold Thought have unintended consequences, one of which is the uncovering of emotions in Kellhus?

As for where Kellhus is going with this:

If we assume that he believes himself to be a prophet of God, and not really God, then his immediate tasks are to eliminate the Consult and any threats to God, the world, the universe, etc. first. After that, he would probably undertake the mission to convert everyone to his way of thinking. This being Kellhus, he's probably doing both and a few other things at the same time.

If he thinks of himself as damned, which he clearly didn't at the end of TTT, then he would follow a similar path to the one he describes Moenghus taking. The ascension of a false prophet, disaster for the Great Ordeal, etc. Then he would either side with the Consult, or find another path to avoid damnation. His intelligence makes this possible but the No-God seems to be the only solution to that one unless he can ascend to godhood himself and save himself that way.

This is just idle speculation, I left out what role the Gods might be playing (because I'm not really sure what that might be save for a small idea that they represent another of Bakker's themes, like Kellhus representing modernity, they might represent something else that Kellhus will need to change to reach his goals, whatever those may be) and a few other things which are probably relevant but I didn't mention because I'm not sure where they fit in.

Going back to the Consult are stupid argument, I can't help trying to imagine what kind of world the Inchoroi came from. It must have been fairly advanced (they do have spaceflight, at least and probably anti-aging treatments). The question is, how did the Inchoroi obtain their ship? Were they a powerful faction that was losing a war and the ship was the last gasp of technological effort from this society? Or were they a fringe group that merely stole a ship that was already built? If they were the latter then it is likely they didn't understand all of the technology onboard and whoever might have understood it was lost in either the crash or the subsequent wars with the Nonmen. Given their culture, anyone who might have understood those concepts was probably too deeply absorbed in the hedonism to care about it.

I wonder if the Inchoroi raped and kill their own people or did they just think that Nonmen and humans were less worthy and therefore raping was just a fun sport? Makes me wonder how they made it all the way to Earwa. They probably had certain elements of their society that were deemed rape and kill worthy, now that I think about it. Anyway, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[lokisnow]

I am rereading Dune so maybe this is related to that, but I wonder if the Dunyain have separate breeding schemes like the Bene Gesserit had/have. This line has this enhancement and these defects but if you combine it with this line one could eliminate the defects, etc. I think they would have to. It wouldn't take them long to figure out the patterns of inheritance and use that to enhance their progeny. Perhaps that is why they still use the Anasurimbor name rather than discard it as they have discarded almost everything else. One of the Kellhus POVs mention that he had normal emotions as a child but they were being trained out of him. I wonder if another bloodline (assuming there are any since there didn't seem to be enough people but I could be wrong) has even less. This leads me to the question of whether Kellhus possessed some defect that made him more likely to break from his conditioning or did Moenghus' Thousandfold Thought have unintended consequences, one of which is the uncovering of emotions in Kellhus?

As for where Kellhus is going with this:

If we assume that he believes himself to be a prophet of God, and not really God, then his immediate tasks are to eliminate the Consult and any threats to God, the world, the universe, etc. first. After that, he would probably undertake the mission to convert everyone to his way of thinking. This being Kellhus, he's probably doing both and a few other things at the same time.

If he thinks of himself as damned, which he clearly didn't at the end of TTT, then he would follow a similar path to the one he describes Moenghus taking. The ascension of a false prophet, disaster for the Great Ordeal, etc. Then he would either side with the Consult, or find another path to avoid damnation. His intelligence makes this possible but the No-God seems to be the only solution to that one unless he can ascend to godhood himself and save himself that way.

Good thoughts, there is definitely a lot of Dune and Bene Gesserit in the Dunyain and Earwa. I particularly like your thoughts on bloodlines and the Dunyain wanting to prune and encourage various traits. Considering how loath the Bene Gesserit were to lose a bloodline, I imagine the Dunyain are similarly protective, which has always meant I've suspected Kellhus left a good number of likely candidates of livable infants/children of his own. He probably didn't particularly care, knowing that 9 of 10 of his infants would wind up as flayed muscle explorations for the one or maybe two of his offspring deemed good enough to carry on the bloodline.

Going back to the Consult are stupid argument, I can't help trying to imagine what kind of world the Inchoroi came from. It must have been fairly advanced (they do have spaceflight, at least and probably anti-aging treatments). The question is, how did the Inchoroi obtain their ship? Were they a powerful faction that was losing a war and the ship was the last gasp of technological effort from this society? Or were they a fringe group that merely stole a ship that was already built? If they were the latter then it is likely they didn't understand all of the technology onboard and whoever might have understood it was lost in either the crash or the subsequent wars with the Nonmen. Given their culture, anyone who might have understood those concepts was probably too deeply absorbed in the hedonism to care about it.

I wonder if the Inchoroi raped and kill their own people or did they just think that Nonmen and humans were less worthy and therefore raping was just a fun sport? Makes me wonder how they made it all the way to Earwa. They probably had certain elements of their society that were deemed rape and kill worthy, now that I think about it. Anyway, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Happy Ent has thoroughly and convincingly answered this question to my satisfaction. It's also the answer that makes the most sense.

[Rhadamanth]

I remembered somebody answering this question but I couldn't remember who or where. If it was HE then I'm sure it was entertaining.

[Nerdanel]

Going back to the issue of the No-God's intelligence, I'm trying to give a concise overview of why I came to think that the No-God is intelligent (and evil).

1. How Others Refer to Him

There are a lot of small references to the No-God in the books. These references tend to give the No-God an agency and importance beyond what one would give to a simple doomsday weapon. People talk about fighting the No-God as if the No-God was their primary enemy instead of a tool of the Consult. In particular, Kellhus either knew or bluffed that the No-God was disappointed in the failures of the Consult, and Aurang didn't laugh at the idea. The No-God is impressive enough that such diverse groups as the Scylvendi and the Wracu think him a god.

The Nonman term for the No-God, "Angel of the Endless Hunger", fits well with the No-God being a Ciphrang, "a Hunger from the Outside" as the priests of Sakarpus put it, and the talk about the No-God having been summoned further supports this. Furthermore, all of our examples of Ciphrang elsewhere in the books have shown intelligence.

2. Sranc Control

The No-God can turn hordes of ordinary Sranc into fighters far more skilled than they would be on their own. This implies that the No-God has some considerable fighting skill it can impart the Sranc and enough brainpower to control them all at once. Babies aren't usually blademasters, although I suppose you could claim that the Consult programmed it that way. However, I think that argument doesn't fit too well with the rest of the evidence.

3. Weird Stuff

Plenty of weird and mysterious stuff happens in the books, such as Kellhus's vision on the Circumfix, that suggest involvement by the No-God. However, I think the key one is Saubon's vision of himself dead in Mengedda. It is stated in the books that the No-God takes the souls of those who die in Mengedda. Thus, if Saubon died and was immediately resurrected, the No-God would have had to have been involved, and since the success of Saubon's charge determined the course of the battle, the entire Holy War even, and also made Kellhus's prophecy true, we are talking about something that looks very planned indeed.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

1. How Others Refer to Him

There are a lot of small references to the No-God in the books. These references tend to give the No-God an agency and importance beyond what one would give to a simple doomsday weapon. People talk about fighting the No-God as if the No-God was their primary enemy instead of a tool of the Consult. In particular, Kellhus either knew or bluffed that the No-God was disappointed in the failures of the Consult, and Aurang didn't laugh at the idea. The No-God is impressive enough that such diverse groups as the Scylvendi and the Wracu think him a god.

To me the single most important thing is that the Inchies and the Consult are mentioned as being the No-God's generals, implying that the No-God, despite his appearance, was actually in charge. However, I believe that this may have been simply a front, and that the No-God was a tool. There's definitely room for either interpretation in the text, and I would say that I don't feel comfortable believing either one at the moment.

The Nonman term for the No-God, "Angel of the Endless Hunger", fits well with the No-God being a Ciphrang, "a Hunger from the Outside" as the priests of Sakarpus put it, and the talk about the No-God having been summoned further supports this. Furthermore, all of our examples of Ciphrang elsewhere in the books have shown intelligence.

This only holds water if we agree that the No-God is a Ciphrang, for which there is little support. For example, when Ciphrang were summoned they were not instantly detectable by all men, did not stop the cycle of souls, etc, and there is no evidence that I recall that implies explicitly that some Ciphrang are stronger than others. Furthermore, Ciphrang are magical entities and their power is derived from that - the No-God's encasement in a Chorae-studded carapace seems illogical given that.

2. Sranc Control

The No-God can turn hordes of ordinary Sranc into fighters far more skilled than they would be on their own. This implies that the No-God has some considerable fighting skill it can impart the Sranc and enough brainpower to control them all at once. Babies aren't usually blademasters, although I suppose you could claim that the Consult programmed it that way. However, I think that argument doesn't fit too well with the rest of the evidence.

Is this true? I'm not doubting your assertion, as it is certain that the No-God brought the Sranc et al to heel, but can you show me a textual mention where it says that the Sranc became better fighters per se because of the No-God? It was always my impression that they were a more effective fighting force simply because the No-God was able to effectively command them, rather than improving their skills.

3. Weird Stuff

Plenty of weird and mysterious stuff happens in the books, such as Kellhus's vision on the Circumfix, that suggest involvement by the No-God. However, I think the key one is Saubon's vision of himself dead in Mengedda. It is stated in the books that the No-God takes the souls of those who die in Mengedda. Thus, if Saubon died and was immediately resurrected, the No-God would have had to have been involved, and since the success of Saubon's charge determined the course of the battle, the entire Holy War even, and also made Kellhus's prophecy true, we are talking about something that looks very planned indeed.

Here's where you lose me. The No-God is definitely not active in Earwa and therefore does not and seemingly cannot have an influence on the world. If he were in Earwa, then all babies would be dead, people would feel him, etc etc.

Furthermore, all of the strange things at Mengedda are caused by a Topos, not the No-God stealing souls. I'm pretty sure the text just said that the souls of the dead at Mengedda stayed at Mengedda - can you point out that passage?

[lokisnow]

The Nonman term for the No-God, "Angel of the Endless Hunger", fits well with the No-God being a Ciphrang, "a Hunger from the Outside" as the priests of Sakarpus put it, and the talk about the No-God having been summoned further supports this. Furthermore, all of our examples of Ciphrang elsewhere in the books have shown intelligence.

Anyone think that The No God was the final success of a genetic engineering program of sorts? Meaning the Inchoroi, having created a topos may very well have decided to trap and experiment on the various demons that came through. Then, they fashioned a sort of giant mech (the carapace) in which to capture/transfer a demon/god consciousness, the cyberpunk hookups available to the trapped Angel of Endless Hunger give him control over the other GE creations of the Inchoroi.

;)

[kuenjato]

Has Scott appeared on the internet recently? I'm curious if that release date for TWW is correct over on Amazon.co.uk. Seems like a ways off (as in, over a year) though it might shorten the gap between book 2 and 3...

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Has Scott appeared on the internet recently? I'm curious if that release date for TWW is correct over on Amazon.co.uk. Seems like a ways off (as in, over a year) though it might shorten the gap between book 2 and 3...

His detective novel A Dsciple of the Dog is supposed to be released in September, IIRC, and it is possible the publisher didn't want to publish two his books very shortly one after another.

[Nerdanel]

Here we see that Ciphrang come in different power levels:

The Snakeheads had no choice. They would disperse their Trinkets to guard against further incursions by Ciphrang, which meant that tomorrow his brother Schoolmen would face fewer in their initial assault.

Eleäzaras leaned forward. "We shouldn't have used a Potent when a Debile would have suited our purposes just the same. And especially not Zioz! You told me yourself he was becoming dangerous."

"All is well, Eli."

"You grow reckless..."

And here we see that Ciphrang have different individual abilities:

Sohorat roared, and plaster rained throughout the forest of the columns. Flies burst from his maw. Raving wolves bubbled from his palms, smashed the sheets of light, gorged on those cringing behind them. Zioz swept burning threads into his fist, wrenched souls from their housing meat. Setmahaga clawed aside flimsy defenses, struck heads from bodies, gloried in the blood that smoked across his limbs. He squealed like a thousand pigs, such was his exultation.

My idea is that the No-God is an extremely powerful Ciphrang, even more powerful than the Wight-in-the-Mountain.

And here is a part of the encyclopedic glossary entry on Sranc:

Though generally inferior to Men in individual combat, they are ideal logistically, as they are able to live for sustained periods on little more than grubs and insects. Survivors recount tales of vast tracts of ground overturned and rooted by passing Sranc hordes. Under the command of the No-God they are utterly fearless, and seem to strike with unerring control and coordination.

And here is support for the No-God taking the souls of those who die at Mengedda:

"Do you remember the line from The Sagas, 'Em yutiri Tir mauna, kim raussa raim' ..."

Saubon blinked away tears and said nothing.

"The soul that encounters Him", the Schoolman continued, "passes no further."

"And just fucking what," the Galeoth Prince said, shocked by the savagery of his own voice, "is that supposed to mean?"

The sorcerer looked out across the dark plains. "That is some way, He's out there somewhere... Mog-Pharau." When he turned back to Saubon, there was real fear in his eyes. The dead do not escape the Battleplain, my Prince. This place is cursed. The No-God died here."

Note how the No-God is called He with a capital H, just like Sauron in LotR.

My view of this is that since the No-God is dead again his soul has moved to the Outside. However, since Mengedda is a topos, it overlaps the Outside. Thus the No-God is able to enforce his will there to a limited extent and take the souls of those who die there. I also think he can have some influence through other topoi.

[The Horse With No Name]

I'd like to join the fray here with qustion.

If I remember correctly (Feel free to dash me if I'm wrong) there were very few Inchoroi left at the beginning of the First Apocalypse, as they had been all but wiped out by the Nonmen.

It's pretty obvious why many Nonmen found themselves changing sides later, with their immortality and the madness that followed.

What I would like to know is why human sorcerers threw their lots with the few Inchoroi left and founded the Consult.

Is it because they thought themselves damned by the Tusk? And if so, why didn't all human mages turn sides?

For me that seems a rather weak explanation, as the north seems to have held to Pagan believes at the time of the First Apocalypse and their societies (again, correct me if I'm wrong) were rather liberal concerning sorcerers.

The Inchoroi probably thought themselves damned even before they landed on Earwa in their Sky Ark, but how did humans (sorcerers as well as scylvendi) come around to the Inchoroi way of thinking?

[gladius]

What I would like to know is why human sorcerers threw their lots with the few Inchoroi left and founded the Consult.

The school of Mangaecca was obsessed with knowledge, so when Mekeritrig led them to the Ark they hit the jackpot.

That place isn't healthy, being a topos and the Inchoroi pit of obscenities and they went mad.

Then Shaeönanra discovered a way to escape damnation and the school was outlawed, so there was no turning back.

[Rhadamanth]

I figured the No-God is more like a black hole. The God would be light and the source of soul creation while the No-God is its opposite. When Akka says that the soul that meets him goes no further, it would be like crossing the event horizon of a black hole, that is once you cross you don't come back, at least not in a recognizable form. Perhaps the Consult were studying souls and chorae and stumbled upon a way to combine the two into something new.

Perhaps similar to what lockesnow suggested, the No-God is somehow connected with the Sranc and other soulless beings that he can use them to increase his intelligence. Maybe that is why he started wondering what he is, he got a look at himself from a few hundred thousand different eyes and wondered what the hell he was and why he was different from everything else. So he asked the ones he couldn't control what they figured he was. And they shot him, so he's probably a little pissed in addition to confused now.

I can understand the Nonmen and damned sorcerers siding with the Inchoroi but I don't get why the Scylvendi moved away from the Tusk to something which would doom them as well as the rest of humanity. Maybe they were damned for some reason.

I always thought of the Ciphrang as sorcerers who died and thus became damned and then became demons. I could be wrong.