The Judging Eye V

[red snow]

First, I think Cnaiür's end in PoN was excellently executed and that he is firmly dead.

I can't really see Cnaiür "winning the Scylvendi over" either, whether he is the real thing or a skin-spy. He has a couple of major credibility issues to deal with.

Despite his general badassness he was basically an outcast when he left the Scylvendi lands. Spending time helping their ancient enemy is not going to help either.

I would have thought mentioning you were involved in bringing your dead God back to life would help rectify some of those issues.

[Cuchulain]

I've just finished the PoN trilogy and there's this small thing I'm wondering about. I've decided to ask it here, since this is the most recent Bakker topic.

Toward the end of The Thousandfold Thought, there's this one guy who's still guarding some Inrithi building. A inhuman creature approaches him and asks about the whereabouts of Drusas Achamian, while at the same time cutting off the guy's face. I was wondering whether this is the same creature that cuts off the face of the Scarlet Spires slave in Carythusal toward the beginning of The Darkness That Comes Before. Aditionally, is this creature also the nonman with the cloak of human faces that fights Kellhus at the start of the first novel? Finally, is this creature the nonman Mekeritrig/Cet'ingira ?

[Kalbear]

The guy who cuts the face is the demon that Iyokus summons to go kill Akka (in TTT).

It's implied but never actually answered that it's a skin spy that removes the face of the body - presumably so that even if they find the body they won't know who he replaced.

The nonman creature is Mekeritrig, and he's the same one from the beginning - but he's unrelated to the rest of the lot.

Really, in Bakkerland everyone wants human faces.

[Cuchulain]

So, the one in Carythusal is a skin spy ? That would make sense, I suppose. I don't remember the timeline exactly, but it would be odd for the nonman to fight Kellhus in the north and then appear in Carythusal, the other side of the world, a bit later.

[unJon]

There is confirmation in TJE's "What has come before":

That is not confirmation. That sentence is true whether or not Cnaiur dies in TTT.

For example: Before his death, Paxter quoted TJE "What has come before"

*waits for Paxter to post again and show proof of life* ;)

[Paxter]

That is not confirmation. That sentence is true whether or not Cnaiur dies in TTT.

For example: Before his death, Paxter quoted TJE "What has come before"

Well, it would seem that "What has come before" was written before the events of TJE (e.g. "Now, after twenty years of confusion and bloodshed, Kellhus plots the conclusion of his father's Thousandfold Thought"). Therefore I would argue that Cnaiur must have died in TTT for the "What has come before" synopsis to contain knowledge of his death. :fencing:

But yeah, I understand that using "What has come before" as evidence of Cnaiur's death is problematic, primarily for the reason that it seems to contain subjective opinions in addition to objective facts.

[unJon]

Well, it would seem that "What has come before" was written before the events of TJE (e.g. "Now, after twenty years of confusion and bloodshed, Kellhus plots the conclusion of his father's Thousandfold Thought"). Therefore I would argue that Cnaiur must have died in TTT for the "What has come before" synopsis to contain knowledge of his death. :fencing:

That's still beside the point. The sentence "Before he died, Cnaiur" did X is true if Cnaiur is alive and well in TJE. I'm not saying something controversial or even debatable. See my previous post. See how my sentence was true. See how you are not dead. QED. If that's too personal think of any of a million other examples: Before her death, Oprah hosted a TV show. True. Oprah not dead. Before his death, Peyton Manning won at least one Superbowl. True. Manning not dead.

At most you could respond that the "What has come before" assumes that Cnaiur is mortal. Which is not exactly revelatory. Or, if you prefer to think of that section as speaking in the omniscient POV, then it reveals that Cnaiur will at some point die. Under no circumstances does it--as a matter of grammar--say that Cnaiur is dead as of the time of the writing.

But yeah, I understand that using "What has come before" as evidence of Cnaiur's death is problematic, primarily for the reason that it seems to contain subjective opinions in addition to objective facts.

I don't know that you can go so far as to say there are subjective opinions. Rather it is written in a way that gives credence to particular interpretations of events described in PON that are open to multiple interpretations. If you think that the section is from the omniscient POV you conclude that Kel went crazy. If you think that the section is written from a character perspective or some other non-omniscient POV you conclude that someone thinks Kel went crazy. There is nothing in the text that I've seen that is inconsistent with either interpretation. People have preferences, IMO, largely driven by whether they think Kel is crazy. YMMV. ;)

[Paxter]

That's still beside the point. The sentence "Before he died, Cnaiur" did X is true if Cnaiur is alive and well in TJE. I'm not saying something controversial or even debatable. See my previous post. See how my sentence was true. See how you are not dead. QED. If that's too personal think of any of a million other examples: Before her death, Oprah hosted a TV show. True. Oprah not dead. Before his death, Peyton Manning won at least one Superbowl. True. Manning not dead.

At most you could respond that the "What has come before" assumes that Cnaiur is mortal. Which is not exactly revelatory. Or, if you prefer to think of that section as speaking in the omniscient POV, then it reveals that Cnaiur will at some point die. Under no circumstances does it--as a matter of grammar--say that Cnaiur is dead as of the time of the writing.

Heh, yeah as a matter of grammar you're absolutely right. Not sure what I was thinking in my previous post. But would you not concede that it is highly unusual for someone to write "before his death, X did Y" if the person is not, in fact, dead at the time of writing? For example, the statement, "before her death, Oprah hosted a TV show", although completely true, would seem strange to me if it was written today in a magazine article.

TBH, though, this really isn't a major issue. I'm quite happy just to believe that Cnaiur is dead for now, and if he happens to turn up later on, well, Bakker has certainly written ambiguously enough that it wouldn't be too jarring.

In any case, the early evidence points to Moe pretty much taking up where Cnaiur left off...at least insofar as being batshit crazy is concerned:

"Oh, yes, and one final thing. My elder brother, Moenghus...Beware him."

"Wh-why is that?"

"Because, he's quite mad"

There is nothing in the text that I've seen that is inconsistent with either interpretation.

That's true. Hence why I wrote that it seems to contain subjective opinions (on the basis that the actual text of PoN did not unequivocally point to Kellhus being mad, whereas "What has come before" clearly indicates that he is). You are correct in saying that the "What has come before" could easily be from an omniscient POV (although personally I don't believe that to be the case - as you said, YMMV).

[red snow]

When rereading Cnaiur's apparent death, i also caught the scene where the man-faced crow of the consult stops off to talk to a young child. Given this is Bakker, it could just be the crow messing with a little child (the whole spectrum of messing) but it could also be a character who is present in the Judging Eye, given that it is set 19 years later. Does anyone have any good ideas?

The only one coming to my mind is Soma of the skin eaters but i'm not even sure the ethnicity would be correct there. It's not even an educated guess.I also wonder how he'd appear under the Judging eye of Mimara if he had met the Consult.

[Paxter]

OK I'm going over old ground here...but what the hell is with the ending of TJE? When the "stamped seal" rises from the water, Mimi turns to Akka/The Skin Eaters and sees their hearts through their breasts and can see eyes open. Now obviously there is a parallel here between the "heart eyes" of Mimi's companions and the heart eyes of the man that the Skin Eaters found in Cil-Aujas. I remember HE speculating that the heart eyes of that man might be explained by his desire for sight because he was trapped in the absolute darkness of the Nonman mansion. But what would explain the heart eyes of Mimi's companions? There was ample light in the well at that stage, so presumably it can't be explained by a desire for sight. :dunno:

*waits for everything to become clear upon reading WLW*

[unJon]

But would you not concede that it is highly unusual for someone to write "before his death, X did Y" if the person is not, in fact, dead at the time of writing? For example, the statement, "before her death, Oprah hosted a TV show", although completely true, would seem strange to me if it was written today in a magazine article.

Yes, totally agree.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

When rereading Cnaiur's apparent death, i also caught the scene where the man-faced crow of the consult stops off to talk to a young child. Given this is Bakker, it could just be the crow messing with a little child (the whole spectrum of messing) but it could also be a character who is present in the Judging Eye, given that it is set 19 years later. Does anyone have any good ideas?

The only one coming to my mind is Soma of the skin eaters but i'm not even sure the ethnicity would be correct there. It's not even an educated guess.I also wonder how he'd appear under the Judging eye of Mimara if he had met the Consult.

I've wondered about this as well. The small child collecting salt from the dead Schoolmen, no? In any case, it can't be Soma - he's Nilnameshi caste-nobility, and so although he's the right ethnicity and roughly the right age, there's no way he'd be a beggar child in Shimeh.

I ... well, I don't know who else it could possibly be. I always assumed it would come up, and I scrutinized the listed Skin Eaters, but I can't recall right now if any of them fit. Maybe Xonghis, the tracker? That name is vaguely Kianene, and I can't recall if it mentions where he's from.

OK I'm going over old ground here...but what the hell is with the ending of TJE? When the "stamped seal" rises from the water, Mimi turns to Akka/The Skin Eaters and sees their hearts through their breasts and can see eyes open. Now obviously there is a parallel here between the "heart eyes" of Mimi's companions and the heart eyes of the man that the Skin Eaters found in Cil-Aujas. I remember HE speculating that the heart eyes of that man might be explained by his desire for sight because he was trapped in the absolute darkness of the Nonman mansion. But what would explain the heart eyes of Mimi's companions? There was ample light in the well at that stage, so presumably it can't be explained by a desire for sight. :dunno:

*waits for everything to become clear upon reading WLW*

I always assumed that the heart eyes thing was just a physical reaction to the Topos, kind of a literary way to suggest that emotions, not intellect, ruled therein.

[red snow]

I've wondered about this as well. The small child collecting salt from the dead Schoolmen, no? In any case, it can't be Soma - he's Nilnameshi caste-nobility, and so although he's the right ethnicity and roughly the right age, there's no way he'd be a beggar child in Shimeh.

I ... well, I don't know who else it could possibly be. I always assumed it would come up, and I scrutinized the listed Skin Eaters, but I can't recall right now if any of them fit. Maybe Xonghis, the tracker? That name is vaguely Kianene, and I can't recall if it mentions where he's from.

I thought Xonghis was Zeumi? I'm not great on catching the ethnicities though. It was the kid stealing salt from the schoolmen i meant though.

It all depends on whether Soma has always been caste nobility, although the fact they have a caste system strongly suggests he should never have been a beggar. Like you, i suspect it's one of the skin eaters, then again i'm always trying to remember if their leader was ever mentioned in the first trilogy too. They seem to be a hotbed of intrigue those folks.

[Paxter]

I always assumed that the heart eyes thing was just a physical reaction to the Topos, kind of a literary way to suggest that emotions, not intellect, ruled therein.

Well, that's certainly plausible. But I still think there must be a more specific reason for the heart eyes' existence. And even if the heart eyes are, as you suggest, a manifestation of the precedence of emotions, it still doesn't really explain why Mimara was able to see her companions' hearts through through their breasts at that particular moment. Guess we'll have to wait for future books to find out :dunno:.

[Xereaux]

I thought Xonghis was Zeumi? I'm not great on catching the ethnicities though. It was the kid stealing salt from the schoolmen i meant though.

Xonghis is said to be Jekhian. Jekhia, according to the Thousandfold Thought's glossary, is "A tributary nation of High Ainon, famed as the mysterious source of chanv, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus. The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit Xiuhianni racial characteristics." (Page 455, TTT hardcover).

[Shryke]

Xonghis is said to be Jekhian. Jekhia, according to the Thousandfold Thought's glossary, is "A tributary nation of High Ainon, famed as the mysterious source of chanv, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus. The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit Xiuhianni racial characteristics." (Page 455, TTT hardcover).

I think Chav and it's possible connection to the Xiuhianni will end up being important at some point.

[Nerdanel]

So I finally read TJE and it was awesome! Now I have also read through the TJE threads. I saw a lot of things I could comment on, but I'm going write generalities now.

It was interesting to see some of my theories confirmed and others not confirmed. I still think both Moënghus (the elder) and Cnaiür might very well be alive despite not appearing in TJE, but I think I probably overestimated the lead poisoning idea. I think lead poisoning could still be a factor, but likely more a background detail that the characters in the book don't necessarily ever realize.

I think Cleric = Mekeritrig = Nin'janjin, the traitoriest traitor of them all. Oh, and he's been responsible for much of the plot thus far through his manipulations of other people and currently serves the No-God. He founded the Dûnyain and sent fake dreams of Seswatha's mundane life to Achamian, etc.

My wild the No-God = Su'juroit (of the two inutterals fame) theory is looking a lot more plausible now that we got to meet the Wight-in-the-Mountain.

I think the thing with the heart eyes was probably that the Nonman King had been told by some human to "see with his heart" to avoid damnation, but the idiom didn't transmit well. Thus the detail ended up in the psychopathology of a Ciphrang.

I think the No-God is speaking in Kelmomas's head, pretending to be Sammi. I think the special connection between the twins left Kelmomas vulnerable to that kind of thing.

With some subtle new evidence like the changes to the personalities of Akka and (arguably) Kellhus my theory about sorcery turning its users gradually Erratic (if they live long enough) is looking more likely.

I'm guessing Sorweel is the White-Luck Warrior.

I think Kellhus can bypass the protective effect of the Chorae, which is how he got to kill Harweel with sorcerous fire even though it's practically certain that Harweel wore a Chorae. I also think Kellhus can trap his dead opponents' souls (by himself or by the Ciphrang on his belt) so that Harweel wasn't caught by the holy stork next to him and didn't go to the reward that belonged to him but was unjustly damned instead.

I think Kellhus is working for the No-God but the No-God's machinations are much bigger than him. I think the main purpose of the Great Ordeal could be just to deplete the armies of the Three Kingdoms with a war calculated to fail while striking against those whose incompetence failed the No-God the last time, but it could even include something as sinister as getting a lot of human souls to Golgotterath so that their misery can be used to deepen the topos there and open the door for the No-God.

I wonder if the Judging Eye is truly objective or if it only shows a privileged subjective viewpoint. The certainty emanating from the inverted Chorae is suspicious in a book written by Bakker.

[Kalbear]

I'm guessing Sorweel is the White-Luck Warrior.

Argh.

We KNOW this isn't true. We know who the White Luck Warrior is - he's a young man who lived in the capital and who was chosen by Yatwer. We have a description of the house he lived in. We know what became of him. These aren't mysteries. Now, do we know his name? No. But we know that he's not Sorweel or Celmomas or anyone else because he's not there. He isn't out in the middle of BFE. None of Kell's kids have suddenly turned 40 years old.

Please, stop this madness.

I think Cleric = Mekeritrig = Nin'janjin, the traitoriest traitor of them all. Oh, and he's been responsible for much of the plot thus far through his manipulations of other people and currently serves the No-God. He founded the Dûnyain and sent fake dreams of Seswatha's mundane life to Achamian, etc.

We know he's not Meketertrig, as Akka knows who Mek is by sight and doesn't recognize Cleric. He's one of the few humans who can tell different nonmen apart. We also know that Mek and Nin'janjin are separate nonpeople. Cleric being Ninjanjin does seem more and more likely though.

[Nerdanel]

Argh.

We KNOW this isn't true. We know who the White Luck Warrior is - he's a young man who lived in the capital and who was chosen by Yatwer. We have a description of the house he lived in. We know what became of him. These aren't mysteries. Now, do we know his name? No. But we know that he's not Sorweel or Celmomas or anyone else because he's not there. He isn't out in the middle of BFE. None of Kell's kids have suddenly turned 40 years old.

Please, stop this madness.

That's in Iothiah, not in Momemn. And I'm not even sure if the White Luck there was an actual human. It was a weird scene. I'm not at all sure, but Sorweel has a connection to Yatwer and is actually reasonably close to Kellhus. It could have been a long-distance blessing in the temple.

We know he's not Meketertrig, as Akka knows who Mek is by sight and doesn't recognize Cleric. He's one of the few humans who can tell different nonmen apart. We also know that Mek and Nin'janjin are separate nonpeople. Cleric being Ninjanjin does seem more and more likely though.

It was specifically mentioned in the Cû'jara Cinmoi statue scene that the Nonmen all look the same to Men. Thus Achamian wouldn't be able to recognize Mekeritrig and a potential plot hole is averted. Cleric could have been wearing his black leathre hood in the beginning just to be sure though (and to look more like a Nazgûl).

[Kalbear]

Sorweel has a connection to Yatwer and is actually reasonably close to Kellhus. It could have been a long-distance blessing in the temple.

Okay - so how is it that Sorweel shows no sign of this 'blessing'? No one notices that he's now 40 years old with tons of scarring and a weathered face? Unless Bakker's deciding to be ridiculously cryptic, they're simply two different people.

You can choose to believe whatever you want, but you're going to be wrong.

It was specifically mentioned in the Cû'jara Cinmoi statue scene that the Nonmen all look the same to Men.

By Akka, to other men. It's mentioned elsewhere that Akka could recognize Mek from the Seswatha dreams. So no, they're not the same guy.

Also:

With some subtle new evidence like the changes to the personalities of Akka and (arguably) Kellhus my theory about sorcery turning its users gradually Erratic (if they live long enough) is looking more likely.

There's no sign of this with the Consult. They're remarkably non-erratic in their thoughts. There's also no sign of this with other older sorcerers. And Akka's remained fairly specific in his purpose and with a massive clarity of mind. Are you suggesting that he has this clarity because he hates so much?

Heck, why do you think Kellhus is at all erratic? This is a guy that organized the biggest expedition known to man. How is he showing that he's just going to randomly betray people? And doesn't betrayal assume that he actually cared about them in the first place, which we know not to be true?