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Harry the Heir


Alexia

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1. If she remains Alayne, the child would still inherit the Vale and LF could be named protector again as Alayne is his 'daughter'. 2. If LF can get into Sansa's head enough he can reveal her identity and then try to marry her himself after Harry's kid is born and then have full power.

The problem with this theory is: If Harry and Alayne marry and have a child, that child may be the heir of the vale. But the very moment Sansa's true identity is revealed (say, after the tragical death of Harry), that child will become a bastard because it's mother was already married to someone else and so the marriage Harry+Alayne/Sansa was void all the time. Ergo the child will loose all hereditary titles, ergo LF has no claim for the vale, even if he marries Sansa.

If LF doesn't manage to undo the marriage Tyrion/Sansa before, there will be the Vale for Alayne or the North (respectively a theoretical claim) for Sansa, never combined.

That's why I'm convinced that LF rather tries to gather military powers by promising Sansa or Alayne without truly intending to give her away.

My Theory is that he indeed offered Sansa (not Alayne) to Harry`s familiy (forgot their name), so

1) he could made them greedy with prospects of claiming the North and

2) in the still valid marriage Tyrion/Sansa he has an excuse for delaying the marriage Harry/Sansa without making Harry's familiy suspicious.

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The problem with this theory is: If Harry and Alayne marry and have a child, that child may be the heir of the vale. But the very moment Sansa's true identity is revealed (say, after the tragical death of Harry), that child will become a bastard because it's mother was already married to someone else and so the marriage Harry+Alayne/Sansa was void all the time. Ergo the child will loose all hereditary titles, ergo LF has no claim for the vale, even if he marries Sansa.

If LF doesn't manage to undo the marriage Tyrion/Sansa before, there will be the Vale for Alayne or the North (respectively a theoretical claim) for Sansa, never combined.

I agree that LF will obvs need to do something about Tyrion eventually, but while he is gone and presumed dead LF can just say that he's dead and that Sansa is a widow to prevent any problems. I think that when Tyrion DOES return it will be with Dany, and that probably wont happen in DwD and LF will have had plenty of time to scheme.

But, why would a child between Sansa and Harry be a bastard if Sansa's identity is revealed after Harry's <presumed> death? I'm not sure if that's how it works.

I guess my point is that LF is definitely planning something more than just marry Sansa/Alayne off to this guy who is/will be the heir of the Vale. It's not like he is doing this as a favor to Sansa--it's cleary to further himself in some way--and if it involves Sansa and himself is a pervy way I would not be surpised.

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...while [Tyrion] is gone and presumed dead LF can just say that he's dead and that Sansa is a widow to prevent any problems. I think that when Tyrion DOES return it will be with Dany, and that probably wont happen in DwD and LF will have had plenty of time to scheme.

But, why would a child between Sansa and Harry be a bastard if Sansa's identity is revealed after Harry's <presumed> death? I'm not sure if that's how it works.

Cersei had put a reward for Tyrion's head. That means the kingdom believes him alive. I don't think LF can allege Tyrion's death, there's not enough weight behind his words.

And as much as I remember of Westeros' „inheritance law“, being a legitimate child means everything, while a bastard has no rights at all. I presume that law will be even stronger observed as the faith is regaining its strength. So as long as Tyrion's death or a annulment of their marriage is not made offical, every child of Sansa that is not Tyrion's, no matter if under a false identity or not, no matter if the child's father is dead or alive, will be a bastard.

I guess my point is that LF is definitely planning something more than just marry Sansa/Alayne off to this guy who is/will be the heir of the Vale. It's not like he is doing this as a favor to Sansa--it's cleary to further himself in some way--and if it involves Sansa and himself is a pervy way I would not be surpised.

Here we agree. I doubt strongly that LF told (or will tell) Sansa – and consequently the reader – everything he plans. And for sure he made this engagement out of self-interest – in some way, whatever that may be. As I said above, I'll wager on military or political strength. As for his attraction to her... IMO he's not blinded by lust, but some pervy things with MiniCat are on his long time term to-do list for sure.

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  • 1 year later...

she'll probably just end up being Lady of the eyrie, because bran and rickon are still alive!.she'll end up like catelyn, sealing an alliance betweens the arryns and starks. He reminds of Robert though, a bastard in the vale while still young,e does gallant and a good fighter. just hope he doesn't turn out to be fat when he's thirty

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As I've said elsewhere, I reckon that Harry will be the key to reuniting Sansa + the Hound, the scenario I came up with being that Harry takes Sandor into his house as his master of arms/sworn shield/whatever. He (the Hound) the begins to teach Harry not only how to to fight, but also how to be a true knight. The idea being that (I don't think) Harry had a real father figure and we already know that the Hound sort of fulfilled this role for Joffrey, except now he's spent X months on the Quiet Isle losing his anger, leading him to the understanding that it's not knighthood he hates, it's knights so now he has the chance to help a young man become a "true" knight (honourable, loyal... all that Ned Stark stuff) he'll be able to become the man he was always meant to become, but who the Lannister's and Gregor corrupted.

Sansa, who I presume is nearby (they didn't go back to the Eyrie did they?) sees this and becomes further enamoured. At the same time, all this "true knight" stuff will effectively innoculate Harry from Littlefinger, since LF will try to manipulate him using his former greed and ambition, but Harry is no longer interested in that stuff, or at least not so interested that he's willing to corrupt his morals to do so.

Sweetrobin dies (sad but kind of inevitable given the stuff they've been giving him), Harry gets the Vale, LF gets pushed out the moon door by the Vale bannermen and Sandor and Sansa elope.

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As I've said elsewhere, I reckon that Harry will be the key to reuniting Sansa + the Hound, the scenario I came up with being that Harry takes Sandor into his house as his master of arms/sworn shield/whatever. He (the Hound) the begins to teach Harry not only how to to fight, but also how to be a true knight. The idea being that (I don't think) Harry had a real father figure and we already know that the Hound sort of fulfilled this role for Joffrey, except now he's spent X months on the Quiet Isle losing his anger, leading him to the understanding that it's not knighthood he hates, it's knights so now he has the chance to help a young man become a "true" knight (honourable, loyal... all that Ned Stark stuff) he'll be able to become the man he was always meant to become, but who the Lannister's and Gregor corrupted.

Sansa, who I presume is nearby (they didn't go back to the Eyrie did they?) sees this and becomes further enamoured. At the same time, all this "true knight" stuff will effectively innoculate Harry from Littlefinger, since LF will try to manipulate him using his former greed and ambition, but Harry is no longer interested in that stuff, or at least not so interested that he's willing to corrupt his morals to do so.

Sweetrobin dies (sad but kind of inevitable given the stuff they've been giving him), Harry gets the Vale, LF gets pushed out the moon door by the Vale bannermen and Sandor and Sansa elope.

Ok, I love this, but there are a few hitches:

What will make Sandor leave the Isle? Will he hear of an ad for a master of arms and travel to the Vale? Possible (I'm trying not to laugh picturing Sandor tearing down a flyer and thinking of what to include on his CV - :)

Harry is already known as a very good fighter - so he may not need the Hound at all, unless it's to train younger boys...

What is the timeline for all of this occuring? Won't LF be pushing for Sansa to marry Harry? Although, I suppose he'll have some surprises coming his way with the war and Sansa may start to counteract Sweetrobin's poison. Maybe Sansa will get LF to agree not to kill Robert and she'll suggest that he goes to be a squire for Harry. Enter Sandor to train them. Or hell! LF himself might recruit Sandor! After all he doesn't know about the San/San relationship. Hmm, this could be interesting.......

I don't see Sandor preaching any true knight values to Harry though, but I would love to see Sandor's interaction with another one of Sansa's suitors and see his jealovs side come out - the one he never got to explore since he was supposed to be Joffrey's dog ;)

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Ok, I love this, but there are a few hitches:

What will make Sandor leave the Isle? Will he hear of an ad for a master of arms and travel to the Vale? Possible (I'm trying not to laugh picturing Sandor tearing down a flyer and thinking of what to include on his CV - :)

Harry is already known as a very good fighter - so he may not need the Hound at all, unless it's to train younger boys...

What is the timeline for all of this occuring? Won't LF be pushing for Sansa to marry Harry? Although, I suppose he'll have some surprises coming his way with the war and Sansa may start to counteract Sweetrobin's poison. Maybe Sansa will get LF to agree not to kill Robert and she'll suggest that he goes to be a squire for Harry. Enter Sandor to train them. Or hell! LF himself might recruit Sandor! After all he doesn't know about the San/San relationship. Hmm, this could be interesting.......

I don't see Sandor preaching any true knight values to Harry though, but I would love to see Sandor's interaction with another one of Sansa's suitors and see his jealovs side come out - the one he never got to explore since he was supposed to be Joffrey's dog ;)

Right see I thought about this. First Sandor leaves QI because a) he's fully healed/as healed as he's gonna be b ) Brienne's visit light's a fire under him, so he's gonna want to leave as soon as he can and c) he's been hearring rumours about Cersei's HUGE champion from the septons passing through and since he never got closure on the whole issue with his brother, he's going to want to make sure. So I reckon he leaves a month after Brienne see's him on the Isle, that should hopefully give his leg enough time.

At the same time, someone from the BwB (possibly Lem, but I'm not enitrely sure) gets bored of UnCat, feeling disenchanted by the change from Justice to Vengeance, so he takes the Hound's helm and sets off for the nearrest, most stable rich people -- the Vale, the idea being that he can claim he killed Clegane (which would work since he knows Rorge is dead and the BwB seem to think Sandor is too). At the very least he'll get praise and maybe some gold or he might even get properly knighted and go into service in Baelish (or some other important person)'s house.

Sandor hears about this, thinks: "bugger that" and changes direction to go get his helm, since it is rightfully his and the knights of the Vale aren't going to kill him on sight because they've all heard he's dead. Anyway so he arrives a week after (just for the sake of convenience, and because it's a short name) Lem, beats seven shades of shinola out of him and takes the helm, at which point, the knights stop confusedly staring and take them both before Lord Petyr so they can settle this. Sansa's with LF when the bring them forward (which brightens her up because she's been in the dumps since she's heard the Hound was dead) as is Harry, who LF's trying to a) coax onto his side and b ) to push onto Sansa, and is succeding on both accounts at this point.

Both Sandor and Lem give their accounts (although Sandor leaves out Arya and Lem leaves out Brienne, making it sound as though he killed Rorge and Biter). Since, by both thier testimonies, Sandor is not the butcher of Salt Pans and Lem did kill who was responsible, LF lets Lem off, but forces Sandor to undergo trial by combat because he knows that Sandor would recognise Sansa (although he hasn't let on at this point, he doesn't know why she's there but he is definitely smart enough to know that pointing out who she really is would get her into serious trouble). Sandor fights Lothor Brune, disarms him, but doesn't kill him (showing how reformed he is after his quiet time), Brune yeilds so Sandor wins. Sandor then offers to join Baelish's household since he as no where else to go possibly as his dughter's sworn shield... (stupid move there, but he's new to the game) before LF can answer though Harry voices up that he'll take the Hound cause he was impressed with his skill and reputation (showing his original character as being not dissimilar to Joffrey's, they both like the idea of having a big, fierce dog around to impress people).

But Sandor's changed now, he's not gonna let how Joffrey turned out (which I imagine he feels at least partially responsible for, even before Joff was king he still did a lot of bad stuff and Sandor never stopped him) happen again. He can't change that Harry's already a knight, but he can change how he'll act now he's a knight: "You said the vows, now you're going to f*cking mean them." So over the next month or so he spends every day teaching Harry the sword, since he may be good, but nowhere near as good as the Hound (earning his respect and trust) and trying to make him understand what being a knight should be like e.g.: humility (pretty easy since he's having his arse handed to him in the training ring by a bloke with half a face and a limp), dedication (he has to practice every day, snow, rain, previous day's fractures...) courage (Sandor disamrs him and knocks him to the ground several times a day, but won't let him yeild, telling him that as long as he's alive a knight can still fight) and honour (Sandor doesn't permit him to go around womanising like he used to, definitely steering him away from Sansa + I don't think he's above giving him a thump around the ear if he makes an "un-knighly" comment, also I like to think Sandor's given up drinking at this point) thus slowly forging him into a better person.

Other people have been noticing this too, Myranda Royce is extremely impressed with the tall, dark and.., striking Hound (which arouses feelings of jealousy in Sansa, since she's never thought of Sandor as someone other people might be attracted to), as well as so Lothor Brune who likewise is impressed by his fighting skill, but also has a profound respect for what he's trying to teach Harry, since he's never taken the Hound as an honourable person before, so he helps out with the training. Its not like he's doing anything else as LF hardly needs a bodyguard and most of the people in the Vale are used to "Alayne" who in any case is seldonn alone, since I reckon she'd always either be with Myanda and Mya or taking care of Robert, or with LF, who is obviously annoyed by this, but doesn't have anything actually on the Hound, so has to bide his time.

Someone who's done biding their time at this point is the Mad Mouse, he's been fairly sure for a while now the Alayne is Sansa, but hasn't been able to touch her and so has spent most of his time drinking and basically sulking until, roughly a month after the Hound arrives, he tries to snatch her a leave early one morning, only to run into Harry and Sandor. Sandor pulls him off her, but turns to Harry and tells him to fight Shadrich, since that is what knights are for. the Mouse is more experienced, but Harry is younger, faster and stronger, still thier fight draws a crowd, including Myranda Royce and Lothor Brune. Harry kills the Mouse and Sandor gives him a nod of proffesional/fatherly approval but points out that there were a couple of places he could have done better and that they're work on it tomorrow, as ofr today, he advises he protege to "get drunk and have a woman" (seeing as he can't completely stop being the Sandor we all know and love) and stalks off on his own while everyone's milling around Harry. Sansa follows Sandor and grills him on why he's here now their alone, he tells her he told the truth about why he came here, but stuck around so he could keep an eye on her. She starts to question him further but Harry shows up, as he's looking for Alayne, but he sees how close they're standing to each other and backs off at Sandor's warning look. Sandor tells her that he hasn't ridden driftwood for some time - cue romantic ride in the snow covered forest. They stop, Sandor talks about his sister, Sansa talks about Tyrion + how she got here. Since she thinks he kissed her last time, she steps in to kiss him once the conversation turns to the night he left KL, but their interrupted by Lothor, who's been sent by LF to get his daughter.

LF is quietly livid at this point, when Sansa gets back, implies/lets slip that he's gonna have to take care of the Hound so during the night, she goes to him and tells him him she needs to leave because she's scared for her life, Sandor of course agrees to go with her and they're soon a-horse and gone. Not much time for talk while their travelling, but a couple of days later at camp, Sansa reveals that it was actually Sandor at risk, which pisses him off since running away to save his own skin is far to close for comfort to what he did back in KL and what he did when he left home. They get into an argument, both ladling in clues that they really dig the other, but Sandor's still pretty oblivious and Sansa feels confused and rejected because of him not kissing her during their ride together at the Vale.

Anyway they run into Jaime Brienne and Pod while heading for Castle Clegane (the only place Sandor has to go) they team up and go to KL (for plot tying up reasons). Sandor, Jaime and Brienne fight the whole of the kingsguard quintuple-handed. Arya shows up, now a fully trained assassin to kill Cersei, but runs into Sansa and Pod. Pod gets cut in half by zombie Gregor (even if you're a marine you should cry at that). Sandor runs him (unGregor) through several times with Oathkeeper, and even takes his forearm, but nothing kills him, eventually in a moment of desperation, he dips his sword in wildfire and lights it (i'm assuming Cersei's gone all mad king and is trying to burn the red keep down at this point) then stabs his "brother" with it, leaving it in his torso, this also has no apparent affect and Sandor against the throne and slightly impaled. Jaime steps up to take Gregor, the giant zombie takes a couple of steps toward him and falls to its knees, black smoke rising out of its visor and the joints in his armour. Jaime stabs it through the visor, yanking the visor off, and blood and black ooze pour out and the zombie collapses. Jaime kills Cersei, asks Arya to kill him (she does, Brienne cries). Brienne goes back to Tarth. Sandor's hurt but in true hero fashion he's not dead, nor mortally wounded after being thrown very hard against a lot of spikes. I'm undecided on whether he and Sansa get married as him and Alayne Stone and go to Clegane, or she embraces her claim, they get married then return to Winterfell (which will need some sorting out but not so much that it will ruin their happiness) if this is the case then Arya goes with them having been pulled back from the edge of darkness byt he sight of true love between her sister and the Hound. Tyrion becomes hand, and gets his own dragon.

So to answer the original question, Harry starts off as a dick, but he gets better.

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So to answer the original question, Harry starts off as a dick, but he gets better.

:bowdown: Words fail me White Fang. i know you were simply elaborating your theory, but this was sheer genius. You gave a very credible, very funny fanfic level theory!! Congrats :)

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:bowdown: Words fail me White Fang. i know you were simply elaborating your theory, but this was sheer genius. You gave a very credible, very funny fanfic level theory!! Congrats :)

I'm posting a more detailed version of this to GRRM as soon as i find out his home address.

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  • 2 months later...

Not necessarily. He doesn't have to change his name. It's not as if any of his parents were named Arryn. But maybe he would change his name because his own seems rather ordinary by comparison.

Regarding the fact if a child of Harry and Alayne could inherit the Vale if it is revealed that Alayne is Sansa, and the child therefore a bastard (because Sansa was married to Tyrion). The child would not be considered baseborn because both parents are noble. And bastards can inherit if there are no true-blooded heirs left. Which seems to be the case in the Vale. The only blood relatives of Jon Arryn who could contest their claims are Harry's older bastards - but unlike Sansa's children, those were baseborn. This, of course, is only valid, if Harry doesn't leave true-born offspring.

I wonder about Lady Catelyn's thoughts regarding the Stark heir. When Robb was worried about the succession after word of Sansa's marriage and Rick and Bran's death reached them, she came up with a distant cousin in the Vale. She couldn't remember his name but thought he might be a relative of Lady Waynwood. Robb shot her down reminding her of Jon. Could that distant cousin turn out to be Harry the Heir, too?

And would Littlefinger be aware of this? Could this be an additional reason that he wants Sansa to marry him, to remove the possibility that Harry's children contest her claims? She is Ned Stark's daughter but Robb obviously meant to exclude her from the succession.

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  • 4 months later...

I wonder about Lady Catelyn's thoughts regarding the Stark heir. When Robb was worried about the succession after word of Sansa's marriage and Rick and Bran's death reached them, she came up with a distant cousin in the Vale. She couldn't remember his name but thought he might be a relative of Lady Waynwood. Robb shot her down reminding her of Jon. Could that distant cousin turn out to be Harry the Heir, too?

Yes I do believe that it is Harry the Heir that she was referring to. (I doubt LF knew that Robb had named Jon Snow heir to his kingdom.) I do not believe that Harry the Heir will turn out to be a monster like Joffery. Joff was raised as crown prince by a mother who was really crazy. Harry on the other hand could not have survived in his foster family if he was such a monster. Also, marrying Sansa to a monster would hinder LF's own ambitions.

I believe that LF is trying to have Harry and Sansa as combined rulers of the Riverlands, Vale and the North, and be the power behind the throne. He knows that Lords and smallfolk will not rise up for him, because he is baseborn and inspires no love. The valiant daughter of Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully, along with the orphaned heir of the vale....they are much more likely to be accepted, and he can still retain the power behind the throne.

LF is waiting to decalre an independent Riverlands/Vale/Northern kingdom. The Ironmen are terrorising the Reach, all their hopes rest on the Redwyne fleet, but they are probably gonna be in for a surprise when it comes to Euron's awesome naval tactics. Highgarden will be too busy with the Ironmen and Margery's Trial to bother the ither kingdoms. The Lannisters will have their succession to deal with, after Cersei's fall from grace, and Jaime's disappearance, and Kevan and Tywin's misfortunes. The stormlands and Dorne will declare their allegience to Ageon. On the other hand, peace is about to be restored to the North and teh Riverlands, and the Vale has not been involved in the conflict. The time will soon be right for an independent R/V/N kingdom.

OR, instead of marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir, he can marry her to Aegon Junior. Aegon can get the allegiance of the Stormlands and Drone. Sansa can get the allegience of the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale. Together they can destory the already fragmented Tyrell-Lannister alliance (if Varys doesnt make them do it themselves). Then Dany will come with her dragons, she will carve out her own kingdom from Slaver's Bay, and volantis, all teh way till the Free Cities (excluding Braavos), then Reunite with her nephew Aegon. Just in time to fight the invasion of the Others!!!

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  • 4 weeks later...

I think Harry could be the gallant knight that Sansa wishes for. She'll love him, he'll love her, they will get married and live in happiness for a while.....before Littlefinger promptly kills him.

I could also see him as a young Robert Baratheon. From the description we've got of him so far, it doesn't sound impossible

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