Executive Meddling

[Ser Lemon of House Gate]

First of all: Hi, I'm sorta new on the board. Been lurking around for a while now, but haven't really had anything to add so far. I have read the first three books and love the series so far, and of course I'm super anxious to see it on the small screen. But now I do have a question that doesn't seem to have been brought up before (I may be wrong, if so stop reading now). So here goes, my first post:

So apparently even HBO sometimes meddles with the writing of its shows, for different reasons but usually for something having to do with ratings. The most relevant example I know of is Carnivale, in which the prominent ambiguity of the characters and themes scared the executives so much they forced the creator to water it down and make the characters less grey and the plot more straightforward. For instance,

SPOILER: Spoiler

when we meet brother Justin in the first season he is a very complex character, and even though he has a, so to speak, strong dark side and eventually realises he's destined to become the anti-christ, he's still a very reluctant villain and really just wants to do Gods work and help people. However, in the second season he becomes almost one-dimensional and all but pure evil.

Apparently this was a result of HBO interfering.

Now, ASOIAF has a lot of grey and ambiguous characters, and the plot really takes some extremely dark turns at times (no need to mention a certain wedding I presume...). So my question is, is there a risk that HBO will try to order the producers and writers around and try to sort of 'soften the edges' and dumd it down in order to make it more appealing to Joe the Plumber? Mind you, I'm not primarily talkning about all the sex and violence and nasty odours, but rather the moral greyness of nearly every single character, and the sheer scope of the whole thing (number of people, places, plots and amount of backstory). Consider especially worst-case scenario where we only get 2 or 3 seasons and they have to make up some kind of rushed, half-happy ending to the whole show halfway through the source material...

[Werthead]

I don't think we have to worry about that, although a few ideas from the production seem a bit odd (the Lannisters at one point being considered to have curved swords seemed weird). It's also very likely that the full complexity of the books, the vast morass of named characters and named houses and different heraldry for all the smaller houses, will be streamlined or ignored in favour of just the big houses and maybe a few important middle-tier ones (the Freys and Boltons, for example). That's not 'executive' meddling, though, that's just the process of adaptation, apparently with GRRM's consent and comments as they proceed.

TV executives are often as misunderstood as book editors, and generally as often held to blame when things go wrong when it was nothing to do with them. Sometimes it's true (executive meddling killed Firefly, whilst executive meddling strangled Crusade at birth), most often it isn't. The primary role of the TV executive is to make the show a success and keep it on the air, and sometimes they have the distance from the project needed to make hard choices that the showrunners or those closer to the production cannot. The creator and writer of Carnivale was by all accounts a bit dogmatic and intolerant of outside interference, so it's unsurpising that he'd blame the cancellation of the show on executive meddling rather than, for example, the show being way too expensive and the central premise of the show too muddled, and I've heard it said that the first season was pretty good because there was a strong, experienced executive in the shape of Ronald D. Moore in charge of day-to-day production. His departure to helm BSG was a major blow to the project, and led to some of the later problems.

The biggest dangers from HBO's brand of executive meddling, I think, would be perhaps a desire to 'up' the sexual content (at the moment virtually every single sex scene in Book 1 is in the first episode with absolutely no more until Season 3, IIRC, not counting some off-screen and alluded-to Renly/Loras 'praying in their tent') as they did with the Sookie Stackhouse/True Blood series, apparently to Charlaine Harris' embarrasment. I think that would be a major mistake. People talk about 'all the sex' in ASoIaF but there's not really that much in there. Having the series 'sexed up' like True Blood (where the levels of sex in Season 2 reach absolutely side-splittingly hilarious proportions) would be a huge mistake.

The only other danger I think is from the aforementioned simplifying of the story, something we've seen them do before. The danger is more insidious because the show does need to be simplified, or perhaps become more streamlined, for the screen simply because filming the book as is written would be a mess. We are lucky in that HBO considers its audience to be sophisticated enough to deal with some pretty complicated storylines, far moreso than network, but GoT is going to have to appeal to a bigger audience than say, the ultra-complex The Wire due to its much vaster budget.

My overall feeling is that 'executive meddling' is always a danger, but far less with HBO than with any other major American TV company or network. Mostly, HBO respect their show-runners, writers and creators to get it right, and have a notably 'hands-off' reputation compared to other companies.

[moirne]

The biggest dangers from HBO's brand of executive meddling, I think, would be perhaps a desire to 'up' the sexual content (at the moment virtually every single sex scene in Book 1 is in the first episode with absolutely no more until Season 3, IIRC, not counting some off-screen and alluded-to Renly/Loras 'praying in their tent') as they did with the Sookie Stackhouse/True Blood series, apparently to Charlaine Harris' embarrasment. I think that would be a major mistake. People talk about 'all the sex' in ASoIaF but there's not really that much in there. Having the series 'sexed up' like True Blood (where the levels of sex in Season 2 reach absolutely side-splittingly hilarious proportions) would be a huge mistake.

There is a lot in the pilot, which I hope is not an indication for the rest of the season. They will probably show a few more whore scenes, more Dany/Drogo, possibly another Jaime/Cersei, but they don't need to go over board with the sex. I hated the first season of The Tudors because of the ridiculously laughable sex scenes and bad writing. The 2nd season had a whole lot less and more intrigue which I am hoping GOT will do. It's hard to take a TV show seriously if it relies so heavily on porn.

[Forge]

I'm not too concerned with this, as I don't believe that any network can meddle with its shows as much as fox (they butchered sliders, firefly, and if i've heard correctly, dollhouse). The books themselves already come with a rather large built in fan-base (larger than true blood I would think), so I do not feel the execs would have any reason to meddle and risk alienating a portion of the built in audience right off the bat outside of normal streamlining and adaptation.

My bigger concern is the $. I would imagine that the series would be on par in terms of cost with Rome, and as I understand it, one of the reasons the show was cancelled was due to it's high cost of filming and only moderate ratings.

[The Pita]

Another reason for Rome's cancellation is because HBO didn't figure in DVD sales. Since then, they've admitted it was a mistake to cancel Rome.

Additionally, I'm reminded of the time that HBO meddled in Six Feet Under because it was too tame for them.

I trust HBO 100% with this show. They haven't given me a reason not to.

[Silverstar]

From what we've been told, too, HBO and the writers are running any changes from the books by GRRM first to check that he is happy with them. While that may change down the line, I guess, at the moment we don't need to worry about it. GRRM isn't going to let anything happen with his books that he doesn't feel is right.

[Ser Greguh]

The biggest dangers from HBO's brand of executive meddling, I think, would be perhaps a desire to 'up' the sexual content (at the moment virtually every single sex scene in Book 1 is in the first episode with absolutely no more until Season 3, IIRC, not counting some off-screen and alluded-to Renly/Loras 'praying in their tent')

Tyrion laying pipe with Shae virtually every other chapter in ACoK doesn't rate? Just sayin'. Not to mention later in S1, there's a lot more Dany/Drogo action to be had. Then there's Theon in Winterfell...

[Efcee]

We are lucky in that HBO considers its audience to be sophisticated enough to deal with some pretty complicated storylines, far moreso than network, but GoT is going to have to appeal to a bigger audience than say, the ultra-complex The Wire due to its much vaster budget

Really? I thought since they were going for a joint venture with BBC (somewhat like they did for the series Rome) that it'd be on a similar level of sophistication and realism...? They didn't appeal to the largest possible audience with Rome (I mean they didn't play down the sex or the violence of the times in order to increase the audience)

[LugaJetboyGirl]

I'm actually more concerned about fan interference, actually! As Wert said, the show needs to be streamlined, and needs someone with some distance to make a few difficult decisions. I am afraid the desire to please the built-in, rather rabid fanbase might at times effect the judgment of the decision makers. For example, although everyone seems to be really happy that fan input was considered so important in the casting, I am actually bummed about that.

[Ran]

You know, it's hard to say how much fan input was actually decisive in casting. They were already thinking Dinklage and Bean, for example. And when you've got a few dozen actors named for roles like Cersei, Catelyn, or Jaime, the fact that some random person or two mentioned the one eventually selected doesn't necessarily mean anything as far as the selection process went.

Mostly, I expect the names we brought up might have led them to invite certain actors to audition whom they wouldn't have initially have thought of.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Word, I can believe that. I guess I just hope that the hard decisions are made when they have to be, despite the 'crazy internet buzz' that is probably putting more pressure on HBO than they have had for any other pilot/show-in-development. They've got to be both pleased with the fans and slightly terrified.

[Werthead]

Tyrion laying pipe with Shae virtually every other chapter in ACoK doesn't rate? Just sayin'. Not to mention later in S1, there's a lot more Dany/Drogo action to be had. Then there's Theon in Winterfell...

Oh yeah, I kind of blanked out the mass of Tyrion and Shae scenes. There's also Theon with the ship's girl at the start of ACoK (although that was referred to after the event) and Tyrion catching Pycelle with the young girl in his chambers.

[fitheach]

You know, it's hard to say how much fan input was actually decisive in casting. They were already thinking Dinklage and Bean, for example. And when you've got a few dozen actors named for roles like Cersei, Catelyn, or Jaime, the fact that some random person or two mentioned the one eventually selected doesn't necessarily mean anything as far as the selection process went.

Mostly, I expect the names we brought up might have led them to invite certain actors to audition whom they wouldn't have initially have thought of.

Really? Dinklage I can see, but Bean I'm surprised they already had in mind. I had the impression from the D&D posts that they were interested in our casting input.

Guess my suggestion to cast NCW as Jaime was for naught ;)...

[Ran]

I'm sure they were interested, but there's a difference between, "Hrm, interesting, lets invite this guy to audition and see how it goes; maybe the fans are onto something," and, "Lets hire this guy over that guy because the fans really want him, even though the other guy did a better job at the audition".

I think David and Dan did the former and not the latter -- which is both cool and wise. For example, I think it's possible Rory McCann and Coster-Waldau were both invited to audition based on mentions from fans on the board. If so, well, that'd be pretty awesome, but it's not something that I think Luga would need to be disappointed in, because I'd suppose they'd have passed on them if their auditions weren't up to snuff.

[strongboar]

They didn't appeal to the largest possible audience with Rome (I mean they didn't play down the sex or the violence of the times in order to increase the audience)

My impressions were that they actually played up sex in order to increase the audience.

[Ser Greguh]

HBO is kind of the anti-network when it comes to concerns about a show being gray, or dark, or violent, or sexual, or in general pushing the content of what's generally explored on television. I keep being reminded of comments Alan Ball, the creator of Six Feet Under, received when he was shopping around the idea for a dark human comedy about a family of morticians. The networks were all concerned about the show being family-friendly, and Ball likes to recall one comment from an exec, to the effect of "This is great, but could you make the family veterinarians instead?"

When he got to HBO, the comments he got from the execs were more along the lines of "This is great, but could you make it more fucked-up?"

So, it's not that they don't meddle at all, it's that when they do meddle, they tend to push things to the edge, as opposed to most other networks which will tend to push them to the middle (though it's worth mentioning that since HBO's success with their original programming really took off, quite a few cable channels, most notably FX, have followed HBO's lead in pushing edgier, more aggressively non-family-friendly content onto the screen (cases in point: The Shield, Rescue Me, and Nip/Tuck).

If there's executive meddling to be had, I'd fear it would be toward amping up the edgy content, and in particular the sex. And although that's the rumor of what happened with Rome, I think the actual story is that the BBC edited down the first 3 episodes into 2, trimming down much of the historical content (using the excuse that British audiences were more versed in Roman history than their American counterparts, and as such the historical exposition was not necessary) but keeping all of the sex intact, the result being a first couple of episodes that were even more sex-drenched than the show already was (and there was absolutely no shortage of sex to begin with). They also oversold the sex and general salacious content in their marketing and promotion. HBO, in contrast, showed the first three episodes in full. The original interview of Apted bitching about it is here, and his complaints are limited to the BBC.

Anyway, given the general content of the series, I don't think there's much risk of executives stepping in with worries that the show isn't edgy enough. There is an extra sex scene in the pilot script that's not in the books, but among people that have read the leaked script there's not been anything that I've seen in the way of complaints about it from anyone here - and of course, we're the purists. In fact, the actress cast in the role that's not in the books has received a considerable amount of positive attention from the fans, which is wildly disproportionate to her one very brief scene (although I suppose there's no reason she couldn't be brought back at a later date).

I think that by and large David & Dan will, if greenlit, get to do more or less what they want, and that concerns over them breaking the bank will be more prominent than concerns over the content they're putting onto the screen.

[Ser Nevarc]

Oh yeah, I kind of blanked out the mass of Tyrion and Shae scenes. There's also Theon with the ship's girl at the start of ACoK (although that was referred to after the event) and Tyrion catching Pycelle with the young girl in his chambers.

And Tyrion and Shae's first sex scene in Book 1 before the battle on the river

[fitheach]

And Tyrion and Shae's first sex scene in Book 1 before the battle on the river

Wasn't a wild and crazy sex scene, I think in novel form the camera panned away...

[Alexia]

Oh yeah, I kind of blanked out the mass of Tyrion and Shae scenes. There's also Theon with the ship's girl at the start of ACoK (although that was referred to after the event) and Tyrion catching Pycelle with the young girl in his chambers.

Theon and the captain's daughter happens live (unfortunately). There's also Theon and Kyra a couple times in Winterfell.

Cersei and Lancel as well.

[theMountainGoat]

Cersei and Lancel as well.

...and probably Moon Boy too ;)