Peter Watts beaten and arrested at US Border

[pika]

I find it striking that whenever I hear Americans talk about their police, it's always with a slight undercurrent of fear, intimidation and a "Never question the cops or you might get your ass kicked" mentality. It reminds me more of former Warsaw Pact countries than a nation that prides itself on being a bastion of freedom. Do they even teach American police officers about defusing conflicts before they escalate or are they too accustomed to using tasers and pepperspray to settle things nowadays?

I have no reports to statistics about this.. and its all personal observation only.. so how it relates to other parts of the US I can't say.. but basically, the job doesn't pay well enough to attract individuals who would be good at "diffusing".. City cops are basically a step up from mall security.. so it gets a lot of people who are willing to forgo the pay in order to have the perceived power that goes with the badge. I've found this is more of a problem with City cops than County cops or State cops.. Generally the smaller the city the worse they are..

Beyond that, from what I've been able to gather, the cops in the US are trained along a basis of Intimidation deters crime vs Visibility Deters Crime (like say in the UK where the cops tend to be highly visible with the uniforms and especially the new Neon Yellow jackets) cops are increasingly being allowed to wear Paramilitary equipment.. BDUS, Harnesses, Wrap around sunglasses, I've seen some of them with two handguns.. 2-3 cans of mace and more than one kind of tazer (the better to fire them up into the air and go AGGGHHHHH!!!.) Never mind the fact that, thanks to the north Hollywood bank robbery from years ago.. cops feel the need to carry around high powered rifles or AR-15's in the trunk of the police cruiser.. which brings me to the next point.. Traffic stops.. Police cruisers have become increasingly discrete and at the same time more intimidating over the last 10 years.. instead of the old White Crown Victoria with a blue lightbar .. now they all seem to be black or dark blue Dodge Chargers with no lightbar and very subtle markings.. usually gunmetal or silver.. They aren't visible in the dark as being police at all.. and the whole reason for that is, you don't realize they are around, so you do something wrong and they bust you for it and turn money for the city/county/state through making you pay tickets.

I think thats basically what it boils down to, we don't pay police/border agents* enough to get people who are interested in serving and protecting as much as playing soldier and forcing you to respect them.. and we put to much pressure on the police to in turn pay for their own equipment and cars via drug busts and traffic tickets.

as I said, this is all just my own personal observation and based on personal experience in dealing with all levels of law enforcement in my state.. your millage may vary..

* I watched a Steven Fry program where he traveled around the US and met a CBP agent who was way to gung ho and I felt at the time I was watching it that, they chose to assign him a post along the Canadian border in the middle of nowhere because had they put him on the Mexican border, we would have been at war with Mexico by now..

[lessthanluke]

That's the difference I guess rabbits. In the UK(or at least where I live) it is very hard to get into the police force.

[Werthead]

That's the difference I guess rabbits. In the UK(or at least where I live) it is very hard to get into the police force.

It's like that across the whole country. You can't get into the police force if you have any kind of criminal record, even a 'deleted' juvenile one (they were going to change this post 9/11 for some reason, but it got shot down, IIRC). Several of my friends tried to get into the police but several couldn't manage it despite (or maybe because) they were ex-military whilst another kept failing physical examinations, despite being in great shape (and subsequently got in the navy instead).

If Watts felt that the search was illegal he should have made an official complaint, or taken it up in court.

Under American law, as related by the border authority itself, Watts was acting completely properly when he refused to submit to a search since they did not have due cause. The incident did not take place at the border crossing itself, where unprovoked searches are allowed, but nearby. As such, he should not have had to make an official complaint or take it up in court. He should simply have said, "No," and been allowed to drive on by. From that point onwards, the homeland security personnel were overreaching their authority.

This is assuming this information about the incident taking place at the internal security checkpoint is accurate, of course.

[Werthead]

This puts a different complexion on events. Apparently the incident did take place at the crossing point itself and was the result of a random inspection. According to the police chief, Watts 'chocked' an arresting officer. However, the police also refused to hand out copies of the official police report, only agreeing to read extracts to the press.

[Jacen]

Minor point, but another reason cops in the US want you to stay in the vehicle is so you don't get hit by oncoming traffic. A lot of cops and people get killed that way. In fact, I'm sure far more cops get killed by vehicles during these traffic stops than by any violence.

[Arthmail]

Never mind the fact that, thanks to the north Hollywood bank robbery from years ago.. cops feel the need to carry around high powered rifles or AR-15's in the trunk of the police cruiser.. which brings me to the next point.. Traffic stops.. Police cruisers have become increasingly discrete and at the same time more intimidating over the last 10 years.. instead of the old White Crown Victoria with a blue lightbar .. now they all seem to be black or dark blue Dodge Chargers with no lightbar and very subtle markings.. usually gunmetal or silver.. They aren't visible in the dark as being police at all.. and the whole reason for that is, you don't realize they are around, so you do something wrong and they bust you for it and turn money for the city/county/state through making you pay tickets.

I think thats basically what it boils down to, we don't pay police/border agents* enough to get people who are interested in serving and protecting as much as playing soldier and forcing you to respect them.. and we put to much pressure on the police to in turn pay for their own equipment and cars via drug busts and traffic tickets.

as I said, this is all just my own personal observation and based on personal experience in dealing with all levels of law enforcement in my state.. your millage may vary..

* I watched a Steven Fry program where he traveled around the US and met a CBP agent who was way to gung ho and I felt at the time I was watching it that, they chose to assign him a post along the Canadian border in the middle of nowhere because had they put him on the Mexican border, we would have been at war with Mexico by now..

This is the most stilted view i have ever seen, and it makes me doubly glad i don't live in the states. As for the AR 15, Canadian cops are moving to using that as well. Know why? Because in tight confines a shotgun, which sometimes does have to be used depending on the situation, has too much scatter and is likely to cause secondary casualties. An assault rifle is far more precise. Of course, one still needs to be certified properly in order to carry one, but thats the reasoning behind it.

[Myshkin]

Under American law, as related by the border authority itself, Watts was acting completely properly when he refused to submit to a search since they did not have due cause. The incident did not take place at the border crossing itself, where unprovoked searches are allowed, but nearby. As such, he should not have had to make an official complaint or take it up in court. He should simply have said, "No," and been allowed to drive on by. From that point onwards, the homeland security personnel were overreaching their authority.

As I said above, if the search is illegal take it up in court, do not provoke a fight. And as it now seems that the incident did indeed happen at the border crossing the point is moot. I'm sure the details will become clearer in the next few days, but as it stands now the story the police gave seems far more plausible than Watts' story of out of control border agents reacting to simple questions with extreme violence.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

It may be unpopular to say but fuck the cops. This shit happens way too often for people to buy the "most cops are good decent people in a tough job" routine. That's telemarketers. Cops are well paid, with fantastic pensions, but always demand more out of the tax payers. Cops are accorded deference, but demand obeisance. The law doesn't apply to cops, so my obligation to afford them the benefit of the doubt doesn't apply either. Fuck them, they beat this guy for no other reason than they could, and knew he couldn't do anything to stop them.

[Ondrew Tyrell]

The story the police gave seems far more plausible than Watts' story of out of control border agents reacting to simple questions with extreme violence.

Why is it easier to believe that Watts reacted to a simple search with extreme violence? At least if the guards were at fault it's clear what their motive would have been. Remember we aren't just talking about whether they should be allowed to beat him (which is problematic enough), but whether he assaulted them.

[Ondrew Tyrell]

There's an update on his website.

[Myshkin]

Why is it easier to believe that Watts reacted to a simple search with extreme violence? At least if the guards were at fault it's clear what their motive would have been. Remember we aren't just talking about whether they should be allowed to beat him (which is problematic enough), but whether he assaulted them.

I do not believe that Watts reacted with extreme violence. That's why it's easier to believe.

What I gather of Watts' story: He was told his car would be searched for no reason whatsoever, and when he asked why the border agents pepper sprayed him, "shitkicked" him, and arrested him. All for..... what? The fun of it? An ego power trip?

What I gather of the police story: Watts was pulled over at the border for a random search. Watts got out of his car, which is a no-no, refused to get back in his car when given a warning, then struggled when the border agents tried to cuff him (a fact that Watts admits). He was then pepper sprayed and arrested.

Sorry, but the police story still seem much more likely.

[Ondrew Tyrell]

I do not believe that Watts reacted with extreme violence.

The police story is that he tried to choke several armed men. That's extreme. Like, berserker level.

What I gather of Watts' story: He was told his car would be searched for no reason whatsoever

I find it strange that you seize on that. Searching for no reason is what's done at the border, same as at airports.

when he asked why the border agents pepper sprayed him, "shitkicked" him, and arrested him. All for..... what? The fun of it? An ego power trip?

They reacted to less-than-instant obedience with excessive force (according to Watts) and then justified the incident by claiming that he choked them. I'm sorry to say that this is not an unusual allegation. Remember the case where the NYC cop attacked a bicyclist but filed a report saying it was the other way around? He was fired when video of the incident surfaced.

[Werthead]

Since the police story immediately has a significant factual error in it (claiming that Watts was entering the USA and not leaving it), it's reliability is immediately compromised.

Confusion continues to reign as someone on one of the comments was adamant there is nowhere for your vehicle to be pulled over to if you're stopped on the American side of the bridge heading east, as all the customs facilitities are on the other side. This apparently led to the conclusion that the incident took place before the bridge. This point has not been clarified yet.

[Myshkin]

The police story is that he tried to choke several armed men. That's extreme. Like, berserker level.

You asked why it would be easy for me to believe Watts reacted violently to a "simple search". Again, I don't believe he reacted violently to a simple search; he may have reacted violently to being handcuffed though.

I find it strange that you seize on that. Searching for no reason is what's done at the border, same as at airports.

So you don't believe there is any reason to search cars at border crossings?

They reacted to less-than-instant obedience with excessive force (according to Watts) and then justified the incident by claiming that he choked them. I'm sorry to say that this is not an unusual allegation. Remember the case where the NYC cop attacked a bicyclist but filed a report saying it was the other way around? He was fired when video of the incident surfaced.

It seems to me they reacted to Watts' struggling with force, whether that force was excessive I'm not prepared to say yet. Watts' admits to getting out of his car, which he should not have done as it puts the border agents in a dangerous situation. He also admits to pulling away when they tried to cuff him, an action which is generally seen as struggling and met by force. Watts claims that his pulling away was a "retreat", to which I say should the police simply allow anyone they are trying to detain to retreat, to run away?

As to the NYC cop and the bicyclist, that was a terrible crime that cop committed, but I don't see how that has anything to do with this case. Yes police brutality is a real problem, but that does not mean that cops should never use force. Nor does the fact that cops have been in the wrong before mean that these cops are in the wrong now.

[felice]

Sorry, but the police story still seem much more likely.

I don't see the contradiction.

* Watts was pulled over at the border for a random search.

* He was told his car would be searched for no reason whatsoever

* Watts got out of his car, which is a no-no

* and when he asked why

* refused to get back in his car when given a warning,

* then "struggled" when the border agents tried to cuff him

* the border agents pepper sprayed him, "shitkicked" him, and arrested him.

If the cops possessed anything resembling sanity, they would have responded to the "why?" with something along the lines of a polite and apologetic "I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but we're required to carry out random searches, and you're not under particular suspicion of any crime".

All for..... what? The fun of it? An ego power trip?

Common enough.

[felice]

should the police simply allow anyone they are trying to detain to retreat, to run away?

The police shouldn't be attempting to detain someone just for asking why they're being harassed! Resisting is a natural instinctive response to a bunch of thugs unexpectedly trying to grab you, and in no civilized country should it be an expected response to simply asking "why?"

[Ondrew Tyrell]

So you don't believe there is any reason to search cars at border crossings?

I'm saying you can't undermine his credibility by rolling your eyes at his claim to have been randomly searched. I'm sorry if that's not what you were doing.

He also admits to pulling away when they tried to cuff him, an action which is generally seen as struggling

It is not, however, generally seen as assault. I imagine he will be convicted if there is choking on the video and charges will be dropped if not. (By the way, he technically didn't admit to pulling away, although I won't be shocked if he did, to say the least.)

As to the NYC cop and the bicyclist, that was a terrible crime that cop committed, but I don't see how that has anything to do with this case. Yes police brutality is a real problem, but that does not mean that cops should never use force. Nor does the fact that cops have been in the wrong before mean that these cops are in the wrong now.

The relevance of similar cases is obviously that his allegations aren't as farfetched as I wish they were, and as you implied. Your attitude seems to be that the cops are on trial here, but they aren't. We don't need to prove them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to exonerate Watts. In fact they may not need to be guilty at all to exonerate him.

[tzanth]

Another suggestion is that this wasn't even a border crossing at all but an internal Department of Homeland Security checkpoint, which is covered by different regulations.

Internal Homeland Security Checkpoints.... what the fuck?! why?! Am I the only person who is completely shocked and angered by this concept?

Getting into the US is always scary. I've been through some pretty sketchy boarders in some pretty corrupt places, but rarely am I as concerned that something might happen as I am when I'm entering the US. Especially since 9/11, its been like they have some sort of fortress mentality and see you as the enemy.

[Werthead]

So you don't believe there is any reason to search cars at border crossings?

Wrong question. Is there a reason for US border personnel to search cars leaving their jurisdiction when the Canadian border cops are going to be doing the exact same thing five minutes later? No, there is not.

This was not a routine stop and search policy. Depending on further clarifications, it may have been illegal in itself.

Internal Homeland Security Checkpoints.... what the fuck?! why?! Am I the only person who is completely shocked and angered by this concept?

No.

[Myshkin]

The police shouldn't be attempting to detain someone just for asking why they're being harassed! Resisting is a natural instinctive response to a bunch of thugs unexpectedly trying to grab you, and in no civilized country should it be an expected response to simply asking "why?"

They weren't trying to detain him for asking why, they were trying to detain him for refusing to get back in his car. Why police want you to stay

. He could have asked why from the drivers seat. He didn't need to get out of his car. The cops had every right to tell him to get back in his car, and when he refused, they had every right to try to detain him. They didn't know who he was, what they would find, how he would react, or if he had a weapon. For these reasons police want you to stay in your car, and if you refuse to stay in your car they need to do something else to insure their safety; namely detain you. If you resist said detention you better believe they will use force.

I'm saying you can't undermine his credibility by rolling your eyes at his claim to have been randomly searched. I'm sorry if that's not what you were doing.

Not "random", "without reason". The two mean different things.

It is not, however, generally seen as assault. I imagine he will be convicted if there is choking on the video and charges will be dropped if not. (By the way, he technically didn't admit to pulling away, although I won't be shocked if he did, to say the least.)

I never said it was. I said that his pulling away was reason for the cops to use force. If he then chocked a cop then that is assault, if he didn't then it isn't.

The relevance of similar cases is obviously that his allegations aren't as farfetched as I wish they were, and as you implied. Your attitude seems to be that the cops are on trial here, but they aren't. We don't need to prove them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to exonerate Watts. In fact they may not need to be guilty at all to exonerate him.

Police brutality is regrettably not hugely uncommon, but simply because some cops somewhere have used excessive force does not automatically mean that these cops did. We get inundated with stories of horrible police brutality, and sometimes that blinds us to the fact that most times when cops use force they have a reason to do so.