Peter Watts beaten and arrested at US Border

[Myshkin]

Wrong question. Is there a reason for US border personnel to search cars leaving their jurisdiction when the Canadian border cops are going to be doing the exact same thing five minutes later? No, there is not.

This was not a routine stop and search policy. Depending on further clarifications, it may have been illegal in itself.

First off, it is very unclear at the moment where he was stopped and by whom. I have no idea what to believe currently as to the facts. That being said, I remember 8-10 years ago US agents stopping outgoing US traffic at the border of Tecate. They were doing this due to a rash of car thefts from local dealerships. I don't know what laws applied to them, whether the regular search and seizure laws applied or not, but it's not completely unheard of for agents to stop outgoing traffic. But again the point is moot to my mind. If the search was illegal he should have taken his complaint through the proper channels, and not instigated a fight. If you are pulled over for speeding when you know for a fact that you were not speeding do you get out of your car, pay no heed to the cop's warnings, and resist arrest? Or do you fight the ticket in traffic court?

[dalThor]

This appears to be where confusion is setting in, because at pretty much every other border stop the US authorities wouldn't get involved, it's up to the Canadian border officials to investigate what's coming into the country. If border officials had to check what was leaving the country as well as coming in, the entire system would grind to a halt and it would be pointless if their counterparts over the border are going to be checking the same vehicle five minutes later.

But you 'check out' of the US prior to 'checking into' Canada. They do that for several reasons. While going to peruse used book stores in Windsor, Ontario with mashiara (who is not an American citizen) we had to stop inside so they could stamp her passport 'out' and of course, on the way back she got checked 'in'.

I used to go back and forth fairly often between Detroit and Windsor. I remember at least once they asked me to pop the trunk so they could look inside (to see if I had any undeclared goods I presume). They took a quick look and sent me on my way. A "search" of one's vehicle can be as simple as that when one otherwise complies with what the guard is asking you to do.

That said, I'm in the camp that believes Mr. Watts may have been able to avoid the whole mess by merely smiling, nodding and answering their questions when and if they asked.

While I have had my differences while law enforcement officials in the past I have to say that if you do comply with their requests they are then quite professional.

[Guy Kilmore]

I know while crossing between the US and Canada at Niagra Falls, I have been stopped by Canadian border guards while attempting to go into the US and I have been stopped by US border guards when attempting to go into Canada. It looked pretty routine to me.

[The Stranger]

I find it striking that whenever I hear Americans talk about their police, it's always with a slight undercurrent of fear, intimidation and a "Never question the cops or you might get your ass kicked" mentality. It reminds me more of former Warsaw Pact countries than a nation that prides itself on being a bastion of freedom. Do they even teach American police officers about defusing conflicts before they escalate or are they too accustomed to using tasers and pepperspray to settle things nowadays?

facile generalization for a very populous country. I've met cops who have rolled by and told people to move a party indoors because more punctilious cops will be taking over the shift in thirty minutes, and I've met cops who have killed people on the job.

in general, I have no problem talking to cops, and i think the bad image they get belies the thousands of interactions that Americans have daily with the Po-po vs. how many times an abuse of authority takes place. this is anecdotal, and it is a white person writing, but I don't see where a blanket observation here rings true.

and I'm not sure how many Warsaw Pact countries you've been to.

[S John]

Getting into the US is always scary. I've been through some pretty sketchy boarders in some pretty corrupt places, but rarely am I as concerned that something might happen as I am when I'm entering the US. Especially since 9/11, its been like they have some sort of fortress mentality and see you as the enemy.

Really? Whenever I re-enter the United States I gleefully skip past the long line of foreigners waiting to get stamped in, I tell the guards what I'm bringing back, they give my bags a search and viola... I'm back in the States.

It might be different for a foreigner entering the U.S., but as an American citizen I've never felt the least bit intimidated by them.

[Gigei]

I loved the Chris Rock thing. Nice stuff. I once was random checked at an airport and they were so thorough! I even had to take off my scarf and they took it and shook it to see if I had anything on it. IMO don't be aggressive.

I mean, why would Watts even complain? They were just searching. So what, did he have marijuana smoke in his car or something suspicious? Just let the border guards do their work.

Sorry but I don't know this guy personally and really from the report and even from his own account he did refuse to get back in the car. So they tried to handcuff him which he then resisted.

Biiiiiiiiig mistake there. It seems, you must *never ever* touch a police officer when they are on duty. Even if you think they are wrong, hitting them or choking or whatever just gives them an excuse to file assault charges. :( Remember Dymond Milburn? (google it if you don't) If police can beat up a 12 year old girl and have it justified, Watts has no chance whatsoever.

Independent source, Port Huron Times Herald:

http://www.thetimesherald.com/article/20091211/NEWS01/91211010/1002/Science+fiction+writer+charged+after+bridge+struggle

Neither Watts nor U.S. Customs and Border Patrol officials returned phone calls Friday seeking comment about the Tuesday incident. Port Huron police Capt. Jim Jones would not provide the Times Herald with a copy of a police report about the incident Friday. But, he read the police report to a reporter.

Jones said Watts was crossing into Michigan from Point Edward when he was selected at random for a secondary Customs inspection. Watts exited his vehicle “angrily” and border officers began checking the black sport utility vehicle he was driving, Jones said.

Border officers ordered Watts back into the vehicle, and when he refused, officers attempted to handcuff him, Jones said. At that point, Watts began to resist and pull away from the officers “and became aggressive toward officers,” Jones said.

Jones said a border officer used pepper spray to subdue Watts. Jones said Watts “choked” an officer during the struggle.

[Zoë Sumra]

Do you know what the rationale is for that? The google says: " Results 1 - 10 of about 1,670,000 for person gets out of car and shoots cop"; " Results 1 - 10 of about 1,980,000 for person gets out of car and shoots police." ; "Results 1 - 10 of about 1,350,000 for police shot during traffic stop"

Your car acts as confinement while the officer does his thing. Once you get out of your car, you can physically threaten and attack, or even shoot the officer. Its triple stupid to get out of the car if there are others in your car. You force the officer to try to split his attention regarding potential threats.

Ah. Shooting. Round here, guns are banned. So the only way the civilian "should" have a weapon in the situation is by staying inside, and staying in at least potential control of, the big, heavy, ballistic hunk of metal.

Also, by staying in the car the civilian, albeit unconsciously, gives him/herself territory to protect. Getting out of the car is meant to turn the situation away from being a hostile standoff.

That's the theory, anyway!

[Ran]

As I recall, Milburn was not found guilty of assaulting police officers, so I don't know as the police were proved to be justified in that case.

The claim by the police that Watts choked one of them seems utterly unlikely to me, but we shall see. If there's video of the scene, doubtless it will show something of what transpired.

[Maia]

Just wanted to point out that, for instance, in Europe, you are usually required to get out of the car if the police holds you up. And most people, if stopped, will get out preemptively, with documents in hand... Ditto on the border crossings, when they still were numerous. So, it could have been a cultural thing dependent on how it is handled in Canada.

[Slick Mongoose]

Since it seems that there were cameras on site, this should be easily resolved..... right?

[Gigei]

As I recall, Milburn was not found guilty of assaulting police officers, so I don't know as the police were proved to be justified in that case.

The Milburn case is not finished yet they have had 2 mistrials - not mistrials of the case about the police assaulting a 12 year old girl but the opposite (she is being charged with hurting those three grown men/police officers). Unbelievable but true.

GALVESTON — A deadlocked jury failed to reach a verdict Monday in the case of a girl accused of assaulting a police officer after officers allegedly mistook her for a prostitute.

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/02/update-on-dymond-milburn.html

Well I guess it was unclear but my point is, you can't choke/hit/push/shove/etc. policemen. Even if they did conduct an illegal search or arrest, afaik, that doesn't mean you can get physical. I mean, 1.) it's not wise and you get beat down and 2.) they file an assault/resisting arrest case.

Another post on Watts' blog denies that he choked anyone. I was assuming the choking thing was true, actually. If Watts is telling the truth, that was a pretty stupid lie by the police since there should be cameras there. Also, Watts has a witness.

Just wanted to point out that, for instance, in Europe, you are usually required to get out of the car if the police holds you up. And most people, if stopped, will get out preemptively, with documents in hand... Ditto on the border crossings, when they still were numerous. So, it could have been a cultural thing dependent on how it is handled in Canada.

Really? That is a good point.

[ljkeane]

Ah. Shooting. Round here, guns are banned. So the only way the civilian "should" have a weapon in the situation is by staying inside, and staying in at least potential control of, the big, heavy, ballistic hunk of metal.

Also, by staying in the car the civilian, albeit unconsciously, gives him/herself territory to protect. Getting out of the car is meant to turn the situation away from being a hostile standoff.

That's the theory, anyway!

Yeah presumably the difference is that in the US there it's far more likely that the driver might have a gun. Pretty much everytime I've been in a car stopped by the police in the UK the driver has been asked to get out of the car as soon as the police walked up.

[mormont]

Since it seems that there were cameras on site, this should be easily resolved..... right?

Sure, assuming the camera was close enough to get a decent shot, has a good resolution, the light was good, and that nobody stepped out of shot or has their back to camera or is obscured from view by other people or objects at a crucial moment. Even then, it's probable that there's no sound, allowing different interpretations of what was said to provoke certain movements, for example.

(<--------- recently spent a frustrating and inconclusive afternoon analysing CCTV footage of a security incident, can you tell? :P)

The interesting thing psychologically about these sort of incidents is that the more the respective parties go over their own versions in their own minds, the more that genuinely becomes their memory of the event. Any ambiguous movements become honestly remembered as definitely threatening, for example, and things that were never actually said are recalled clearly. I've had people demand to be provided with CCTV footage because they insist this will prove that they never threw a punch: they literally can't believe it sometimes when the screen clearly shows them doing so. They're thunderstruck. (OK, they were generally drunk at the time of the incident, but the point is that when sober, they've managed to completely convince themselves it never happened.)

[zollo]

It wouldn't surprise me if "choking" would be defined as actually choking someone, trying to choke someone, attempting to choke someone, appearing to try to attempt to choke someone etc etc. As much as putting a hand on a policeman's shoulder might be construed as any of the above. Anyone any insight in that? Solo?

[Ran]

Gigei,

Far as I know, the prosecutors are not pursuing the case any longer. That said, the basic point is true, that if the police get physical with you, you are almost certain to end up in jail and ultimately will end up on trial. Even if they started it, even if you did nothing to warrant it.

This gives police a fairly unreasonable amount of power. You're basically frightened into shutting up and doing what they say, even if what they're doing is unconstitutional, because it's more trouble than it's worth.

I'll add, BTW, that this notion of the majority of shootings happening at traffic stops being the reason why you don't get out of the car to be a curious one. Surely, the majority of traffic stop shootings involve a person _in_ the car shooting a police officer? It seems to me that if you're the sort of person to shoot cops, the cover of the car provides a much greater opportunity to ambush someone with a gun than getting up out of the car and doing so.

Not that that has any real bearing on the situation. If the police didn't want him out of the car, he should have stayed in the car.

[Slick Mongoose]

Sure, assuming the camera was close enough to get a decent shot, has a good resolution, the light was good, and that nobody stepped out of shot or has their back to camera or is obscured from view by other people or objects at a crucial moment. Even then, it's probable that there's no sound, allowing different interpretations of what was said to provoke certain movements, for example.

I'm assuming cameras at police border checkpoints to be better, and have several angles. But maybe i'm being too optimistic.

[Altherion]

Is there a reason for US border personnel to search cars leaving their jurisdiction when the Canadian border cops are going to be doing the exact same thing five minutes later? No, there is not.

The only times I can recall the Swiss border guards coming out in force were after a big robbery in Geneva and they obviously check outgoing cars. I assume every country does this.

Just wanted to point out that, for instance, in Europe, you are usually required to get out of the car if the police holds you up. And most people, if stopped, will get out preemptively, with documents in hand... Ditto on the border crossings, when they still were numerous.

Really? The one time I was stopped by the police in France the officer just asked for my documents. She told me to turn the motor off (I had forgotten about it), but she never said to get out of the car. And at the border the most they've ever done is ask a few questions and tell me to move on.

Really? Whenever I re-enter the United States I gleefully skip past the long line of foreigners waiting to get stamped in, I tell the guards what I'm bringing back, they give my bags a search and viola... I'm back in the States.

It might be different for a foreigner entering the U.S., but as an American citizen I've never felt the least bit intimidated by them.

They've never actually searched my bags (I just give the that blue form they make you fill out on the airplane), but yes, they're generally pretty friendly. It's a bit more annoying than European airports where you can walk out through one of those green exits which says something like "By using this exit, you state that you have no goods to declare to customs", but still quite tolerable.

[Richard]

I got pulled over by the police in Western Australia earlier this year. It was a pretty wild west part of the country, and these guys were quite clearly of the tough-hombre, don't-fuck-with-us persuasion, but their approach was exemplary. They asked (politely but firmly) for my ID, checked it, handed it back and the next thing out of the guy's mouth was "Okay - reason we've stopped you is..." + 1 clear and concise explanation.

How hard would it have been for these particular <i>public servants</i> to do something similar:

"Please get back in your vehicle, sir. It's just a random security check, shouldn't take long."

What's terrifying (and instructive) to me is not so much the incident itself, but the scads of people posting here who seem to think Peter Watts <i>deserved</i> what he got, that in effect a beating and jail is an appropriate response to anyone with the temerity to question an authority figure. Talk about your daddy-fixated cultures, Jesus.

Do's yore told, bwoy, else papa's gon' give you a ass-whoopin'.

The Founding Fathers must be spinning in their graves.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Richard,

Who's saying "he deserved what he got."? As far as I can tell the worst people have said is he shouldn't have gotten out of his car or that he should have gotten back in when instructed to do so.

[Arthmail]

It may be unpopular to say but fuck the cops. This shit happens way too often for people to buy the "most cops are good decent people in a tough job" routine. That's telemarketers. Cops are well paid, with fantastic pensions, but always demand more out of the tax payers. Cops are accorded deference, but demand obeisance. The law doesn't apply to cops, so my obligation to afford them the benefit of the doubt doesn't apply either. Fuck them, they beat this guy for no other reason than they could, and knew he couldn't do anything to stop them.

Any time this sort of conversation comes up, isn't this your standard response to anything having to do with the cops? If not then my mistake. But i'm curious about who you call when you need the help. Cops are decently paid, with decent pensions, but the amount of shit they have to put up with every day does add up. Its not an excuse, but blatantly blasting them every time something happens is a total waste of time.