GoT Mafia Game 70.5 - Jingle Hell

[House Velaryon]

No. I will explain in 3 hours. Have to leave now. I'll be back just before the lynch and will explain myself. I wasn't lurking..

[House Tully]

I took a long nap. :)

Instead of continuing my quote-by-quote analysis of the thread (it helps me keep track of what's going on, but I have a sinking feeling that no one actually read my big post above), I'll just cut to my general impressions.

Bashful, question. What changed between this:

and this:

What changed is that Durin was caught in a contradiction and came up with a rather lame excuse for it. His further reactions also didn't sit right with me. First he tried to back up his defense with some logic, then, after it didn't work, he tried to please his attackers by giving them cookies.

...And now I'm going to say something that will make me sound completely crazy. I'm seriously worried about Bashful, although I'm having trouble articulating just why. Has anyone noticed something strange about him? He seems to agree with virtually everyone and stay very friendly and agreeable. He's continuing the trend he started early on by saying he agreed with both Gimli and Tyrion. Overall, his points have been kind of wishy-washy and inane--although maybe I'm biased because I've disagreed with virtually everything he's said all game. But other than his OMGUS vote on Happy, I don't think he's ever seriously attacked another player.

Well, I guess you have the one or the other point here, although I think I attacked not only Durin. About the wishy-washy-ness - well, so far I couldn't manage to concentrate that much on this game. I'm also not a friend of absolute opinions at that early stage of the game when it comes to suspicion - I am willing to give someone a a fair amount of trust though. Which is why I am not too worried about Grumpy's stunt. I am almost confident that he is innocent.

The overall impression I'm getting is that he's deliberately holding back and trying not to make enemies. Bashful, I'm getting the impression you're either limiting yourself to "wishy-washy spam" (as you put it) in order to avoid lynching your masters, trying to send as many "symp clues" (since you apparently like them) as possible to any potential masters, staying suspicious and wishy-washy so that they don't NK you, or just fed up with a crappy role. I'm starting to wonder if he's Santa. His play reminds me of a more intelligent version of a couple of the zombies in the zombie game.

At least you have the right idea of how a symp should play the game. Not sure if I fit that raster though. And I reject the idea that my playstyle is zombielike. I know I could do better, but unfortunatly RL stuff keeps my busy and tired.

Anyway, my preferences for a lynch would be Tyrion or Bashful--I'd vote Durin because his arguments have been pretty bad, but Durin has made a few genuine-sounding comments, and the first two worry me much more. I refuse to vote Gimli based on a symp clue. I question the sanity of anyone voting Sleeppy, because I feel as though we're reading different threads. Seriously. His innocence is blinding.

Since half of my case on Bashful is based on gut, I'll vote for Tyrion. Going to make myself a coffee and then address his defence now.

It's funny how you start to defend the main suspects. By your own standards, your comment about Durin is wishy-washy and your stance towards the Gimli case is zombie-strategy. Regarding Sleepy, I am confident that he's not Santa, but I won't rule him out as an FM. What makes you think that he couldn't be a killer?

Edit: spelling

[House Mooton]

I checked up on Doc. Aside from his attacks on Gimli, he has also recognized Durin's contradiction, questioned Happy about his trust for Sleepy, and agreed with Alberich's points against Sleepy.

Two things with this. First, I'd like to know why you're not sure you agree with the arguments against Durin. I think they're pretty straightforward, especially with his blatant contradiction.

Second, I'd also like to hear from Happy about why he finds Sleepy trustworthy. I think Alberich did a fine job of pointing out oddities in Sleepy's post that raise questions and I wonder why, even after he pointed them out, Happy still finds Sleepy trustworthy.

As for my vote, I'd be willing to vote Gimli, Durin (for the blatant contradictions) or Sleepy (based on Alberich's points). I need to reread Tyrion again as I don't really recall the arguments against him. Will vote for Gimli now as I still think he's incredibly worried as he had to dig into each individual word to defend his point and that really bothers me.

One weird thing I noticed is how he drops statements like "the case against Durin is straightforward, especially the contradiction" into a larger post, without ever previously mentioning that opinion or specifically talking about the case/contradiction. Maybe I'm just thinking about lurkers because of Sneezy, but I could see Doc taking that route as well.

[House Baratheon]

No. I don't need you to defend him. What I want is for you to explain why you find him so trustworthy. Is it impossible for you to do that without going point by point from Alberich's post?

I've already answered this. I trust him because he tries to get this game driving, which evils usually don't. If you wanted just this, you could just read my answer to Alberich.

[House Clegane]

It was a joke. Lying doesn't come into it because there was no expectation that anyone would believe what he was saying. And you didn't accuse him of lying at the time, you accused him of lying just now, six or whatever pages later when it has been explained to you that it's a joke, and when pretty much everyone has confirmed that that's the way they saw it. Saying that someone lied is a reasonably serious accusation in mafia. It's not a word to be thrown around unless you actually mean that he intended to deceive you.

ETA: Hang on a second, are you saying that at the time, after a couple of people went "WTF you thought that was serious?" your immediate reaction wasn't, "Whoops, I've misinterpreted a joke", but "now Gimli's saying he isn't a symp, I've been lied to"? Not being in the mindset of being lied to isn't relevant because you weren't lied to, you misunderstood a joke and your very next post indicated that your first thought was sarcasm not deception. At what point did you believe Gimli was lying, and is that still what you're saying?

I'm using lie to mean 'said something that isn't true' a rather less serious thing that 'deliberately intended to deceive' - i think both are valid meanings of the word, i just used the word to try to explain that i didn't get the joke and how i was thinking at the time. No i am not accusing Gimli of lying in the sense of intending to deceive, and never thought that - once he said that it was a joke, i accepted that.

[House Stokeworth]

I'm not trying to be funny. I'm trying to show you just how dense you are being. Your statement of "I will never believe symp clues because they just couldn't possibly be true" is blind and idiotic.

So I boiled Gimli's early posts down for you, and your vote proves my point - you can't possibly read that back and forth and fail to see why Gimli is suspicious.

In my case, I'm innocent. You're questioning that now, and that is fine with me. The point is, you should be questioning it about Gimli too. And at least my statement had a reason for it; his was entirely pointless, if he's innocent.*

*ETA - Oh, except for his attempt to trap the FM. :rolleyes:

...You know, I have to say that that's probably the only defence you could have made to that post that would have actually convinced me.

Vote goes back to Tyrion.

I'll admit that I haven't read Gimli carefully because I'm struggling to catch up, and that I did a little mental "WTF?" when he made that comment about wanting the FM to wonder if he was a symp. Since Tyrion and Bashful are my top suspects now, by default that makes me feel better about Gimli (although true, that doesn't stop them from being elves and Gimli Santa). But I don't like basing cases on wording that may be coincidental rather than the suspect's behaviour or arguments. Correct me on my Mafia history, but has anyone ever successfully caught a symp clue? If there's anything I dislike about Gimli, it's how he flew off the handle when Doc attacked him. True, you've proven that I shouldn't ignore all symp clues, but Gimli's post didn't strike me as that blatantly sympish--it could have been one (particularly his overuse of "hypothetically"), but seeing as he could have also been an innocent genuinely worried about Bashful's positive reaction, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I really don't think it's fair to call that blind and idiotic.

I don't think he's ever answered Tyrion's original accusation against him, though. To repeat myself:

Gimli, did you ever explain what you meant by this post? See above for my thoughts on symp clues, but I don't get the joke. Why are you feeling possessed? People are still voting you for that post, yet you don't seem to have ever explained yourself. Why is that?

[House Clegane]

I took a long nap.

Instead of continuing my quote-by-quote analysis of the thread (it helps me keep track of what's going on, but I have a sinking feeling that no one actually read my big post above), I'll just cut to my general impressions.

I read it, if it helps

[House Tully]

Correct me on my Mafia history, but has anyone ever successfully caught a symp clue?

I can remember two times that it happened. One time was because one of teh innocents cheated, and one time the innocents actually found the symp clue. Since my memory level is close to disastrous, it might have happened more often. :unsure:

However, I remember that symps have left clues regularly. They were that hard to spot because the symp knew his masters, so he could drop his clues in a very subtle way. In this game though, the symp has to be blatant with his clue, because he doesn't know who his masters are. So, if he wants them to catch his clue, he must make a clue that is obvious to everyone. That's one strategy that a symp could pursue in a game like this - it's a bit risky, but he could gain a lot. Other strategies are the wishy-washy-concept described by you or the symp could try to make himself lynchable to avoid a nightkill. The latter two strategies reduce the symp's influence on the game, but since there is no need for him to manipulate discussion (he doesn't know who to protect) he might have chosen one of these.

[Masonity]

Don't have targa login on my phone. Just found out my grandad has lukemia on my way to hospital. No idea how much I can do the next few days. Sorry.

[House Stokeworth]

:grouphug:

I'm so sorry.

[House Clegane]

:grouphug: Your whole family has my sympathy Masonity.

[House Connington]

Don't have targa login on my phone. Just found out my grandad has lukemia on my way to hospital. No idea how much I can do the next few days. Sorry.

That's awful.

I'm so sorry. :grouphug:

[House Dayne]

Two things with this. First, I'd like to know why you're not sure you agree with the arguments against Durin. I think they're pretty straightforward, especially with his blatant contradiction.

I can see why people are concerned about Durin, but I am more concerned at this point about Gimli and Sleepy. It's probably a little holdover from early game. As I was reading things through, I found myself agreeing with Durin's thoughts so can sympathize a bit. Maybe not the best reason, but right now I'm going with it.

[House Baratheon]

Don't have targa login on my phone. Just found out my grandad has lukemia on my way to hospital. No idea how much I can do the next few days. Sorry.

Bst wishes for you and your grandad, Masonity.

[House Tully]

All my best wishes, Masonity!!!!!!!!!!! :grouphug:

[House Tully]

I tried to make a vote count. Hopefully I got everyone's vote in the right place:

5 votes for Durin (Happy, A Smurf, Mini Me, Grummpy, Bashful)

3 votes for Gimli (Doc, Durin, Tyrion L)

1 vote for Doc (Gimli)

2 votes for Tyrion L (Sleeppy, Oompah Loompah)

1 vote for Grummpy (Sneezy)

2 players have not voted: Alberich, Dopey.

We have roughly three hours left. I will be away for about two hours, so I'll be able to switch my vote to ensure a lynch. Looks like the three alternatives are Durin, Gimli and Tyrion. Wee should start to get to a decision. My order of these three is:

1. Durin

2. Gimli

3. Tyrion

I am also wondering a bit about Oompaah. Why did he vote for Grumpy when he apparently does not believe in cases based on symp clues? :dunno:

[House Dayne]

Oh Masonity, so sorry to hear. Sending you a virtual hugs and tons of good thoughts! :grouphug:

Can't believe Grumpy's demonstration got such a strong reaction as to garner 2 votes and a fuck you.

I feel like you (Sleepy and Gimli) are both being overdefensive. At least Gimli has some reason, because he might be lynched, but Sleepy's frustration is perplexing.

Pulled out this quote because this point is right on.

I've already answered this. I trust him because he tries to get this game driving, which evils usually don't. If you wanted just this, you could just read my answer to Alberich.

Sleepy is involved and driving conversations, but most of that has been deflection and defense, no?

Someone earlier asked about SMurf ... I have a gut level unfavorable reaction to him. Nothing specific.

After thinking about this, I can't get past Gimli's deliberate symp clue. I don't buy his explanation of a FM trap. It was his second (I think) post and I think it way more likely that he was signaling his true role rather than setting a trap at that point. For me, I won't be able to get past this until we get some resolution. It will also give us some good info for future days if nothing else. I don't get why the opposition is so strong against him when he has admitted to deliberately placing that clue. You should all be questioning that (as Grumpy so bluntly pointed out).

Gimli

[House Baratheon]

[quote name='Bashful' date='23 December 2009 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1261595563' 2 votes for Tyrion L (Sleeppy, Oompah Loompah)

1 vote for Grummpy (Sneezy)

I am also wondering a bit about Oompaah. Why did he vote for Grumpy when he apparently does not believe in cases based on symp clues? :dunno:

[House Stokeworth]

I am also wondering a bit about Oompaah. Why did he vote for Grumpy when he apparently does not believe in cases based on symp clues? :dunno:

I'm in the middle of typing up a whole reply to your other post (and I still haven't responded to Tyrion), but just to touch on this:

Read Grumpy's post. That isn't just a symp clue; that's pretty much screaming from the rooftops, "Look at me! I'm a symp!" That's the rare example of a symp clue that's so obvious that letting it slide allows symps to brazenly communicate with their masters. It was written to be as blatant as possible just for rhetorical effect. And furthermore, he posted that after we had a huge discussion about symp clues, in which he was a big proponent of looking for them. So I thought that post was either a distracting antitown joke intended to mess with people's minds, or he was capitalizing on the previous discussion to send a very obvious signal. If there's anything you should question, it's that I didn't realize it was fake, simply because I should have known it was too obvious to be real.

[House Stokeworth]

OOmphah has voted Tyrion, due to your own vote count?

In Bashful's defence, I did vote for Grummpy in a...rather strong reaction to his post, in which I genuinely thought he was quasi-revealing as Santa. I just changed it back to Tyrion after Grummpy explained what he was trying to accomplish.