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House Targaryen

GoT Mafia Game 70.5 - Jingle Hell

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1) I was referring to Gimli as flippant not yourself, which he has been and it's a strange reaction. I understand your argument about the high level of risk associated with FM attempting to contact each other. I just think it's one of the best indicators of guilt, and the issue has arisen with Gimli and Bashful.

I apologise. After rereading I can see that it wasn't aimed at me. In the particular sentence I assumed "he" applied to the wrong person.

2) I am of the opinion that it's worth exploring and you disagree. That's fair enough. I am not twisting anyone's words, I am pointing out things that I have noticed and one of those things is your unwillingness to consider the possibility that something was going with Gimli's comment and Bashful's reaction to it. I think their exchange looks very dodgy and it surprises me that you are so willing to overlook it.

This is pretty much the argument I was making against you. You're the one who said it was suspicious that I hadn't pursued your suspicion of Bashful. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, I'm just saying that it isn't especially suspicious if other people disagree with them. I did have some suspicion of Bashful, you may note, but then got distracted arguing with... someone, during which time Bashful clarified his statement. On reviewing what he said in light of this new information I didn't find it any more suspicious than anything anyone else had said.

My original post (to you I believe) about symp clues was intended as a furtherance of the discussion on the subject and a statement of my own opinion on the matter. It was not intended to halt that line of inquiry entirely. If you think Gimli was giving a symp clue, well and good, but you're going to have to flesh out the case beyond that.

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Oh, I see. Yeah I suppose that's a bit of a contradiction. My point was that Sleeppy has chosen to ignore other valid arguments in favor of pursuing Tyrion or exploring his concerns. It worried me because it feels like he has been deflecting investigation from this, even though there were comments made that seem to warrant it. If he were Fm and thought that Tyrion was onto something, I think that's what he would do. Tyrion blundered with his accusation but he had a point that seemed solid to me, Sleeppy's accusation of him seemed less so.

:bs: This post makes my head hurt. You're caught blatantly contradicting yourself, and to defend yourself you just say 'Yeah I suppose it's a bit of a contradiction', and throw out a weak, poorly constructed case? Your posts read like someone who's desperate to appear to be contributing something. It's hard to come up with consistent cases when you already know who the bad guys are, isn't it?

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:bs: This post makes my head hurt. You're caught blatantly contradicting yourself, and to defend yourself you just say 'Yeah I suppose it's a bit of a contradiction', and throw out a weak, poorly constructed case? Your posts read like someone who's desperate to appear to be contributing something. It's hard to come up with consistent cases when you already know who the bad guys are, isn't it?

I've told you what I was thinking at the time I made my statements, I wasn't desperate to make a contribution, I've made plenty, I was answering you with the truth, which is all I can do.

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Uh, how about from your post? You just said if there had been subsequent input to move you further along (aka support) then you'd vote. You're doing a really poor job at trying to defend the wording of your posts to the most literal meaning and it bothers me. It means you don't really have a leg to stand on.

I don't think you posted a symp clue (symps do NOT make symp clues on day 1) but I do think you're defending yourself extremely poorly and trying to back out of a situation that you're obviously worried about.

Gah. I'm really struggling to make myself understood. Further input was actually referring to future behaviour from Bashful that raised suspicion. Admittedly my wording is less than stellar in its precision, but by equal measure you seem to be guilty of some sort of confirmation bias yourself as you take something you yourself have noted as literal and come out of it with something that is just as subtextual as what I said and then you complain about literal meanings. :worried:

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Your "wait...is this a serious vote?" looks like a comment on the whole exchange, as if you only then managed to see that Tyrion was serious.

And my point is that you admitted you were fishing for FM. You wanted to trick one into revealing himself to you. So you shouldn't have been surprised when a player thought your post was worth some attention.

Again, either you haven't read the exchange properly, or my memory is tricking me, but my comment comes after he voted for me. He voted for me when I posted a sarcastic confession. So no, not surprised by the fact that someone caught onto it, a little surprised that it was so easy for them to do so, but majorly surprised that someone would think that a confession in the RP stage is a de facto sign of guilt.

I'd kill for people to be able to understand my posts the way I intended them to be understood. :ohwell:

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Durin, your last answers were totally unsatisfying. These made me quite sure we can't find better lynch than you today.

My second suspect is Tyrion. Everybody noted his opinion on Sleeppy was middle of road, but nobody mentioned that his opinions on all other players were wishy-washy as well.

Gimli is the third.

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Was gonna make one post, but realized I was tagging a lot of things I wanted to comment on, so now it's 2 posts.

I've got to say that at this point I'm suspicious of anyone who has a particular opinion of anyone in either direction. At this point (pending clarification by certain people) that seems to include Tyrion, Bashful, and apparently yourself. I'm not sure what to make of that, other than it's unusually high number of people.

I found this a very strange thing to say, especially as I didn't see much evidence of people taking particularly strong stances yet. It's only page 3 for goodness sake and RP was barely over. Apparently others thought so too, because he was called out on it and replied:

Nonsense, I'm saying that forming any opinion that you're particularly attached to based on RP is just weird to me. Obviously there needs to be a first serious post, but I don't think anyone expects that post to have anything more than the average random chance of hitting scum.

I've already said that it's really weird you thought Gimli was actually confessing to anything.

I do think it's odd that Bashful should form a like for Gimli based of "the way he thinks", since all of Gimli's thinking has been playful so far.

And I do think it's odd that Mini Me thinks Gimli's a particularly grumpy bastard.

Of the three I find you the oddest, since I can see how the other two might just be banter.

As for holding up serious play, once the first serious post is made, no one is going to prevent the game from turning serious. Also, me saying that anything is suspicious only encourages serious play since it's bound to invoke a reaction.

I wasn't sure what to make of your serious vote on Gimli, but you're reaching hard with this one, and that I really don't like.

So he admits that 2 of the player's strong reactions could be banter. He emphasizes that he doesn't like Tyrion's vote on Gimli because it's reaching. (not saying Tyrion thinking Gimli confessed isn't something to think about, but I much prefer Tyrion's thinking to Sleepy's at this point)

I'm still trying to decide whether I think a symp would risk signalling his masters in this game since the symp has a power almost as valuable as the FM, and the rules suggest that it's at least possible that that power could pass to an innocent if the symp dies.

He mentioned in an earlier post that he was struggling to see if something made someone more suspicious (can't remember now, didn't tag it) but what I'm looking at is not the actual suspicion he had, but his language. 'I'm struggling to decide if ...' ' still trying to decide if ...' Way to non-committal. Just waaay too non-committal and non-confrontational

.

To return to the game, I'm bothered now that Tyrion seems to have done a runner as soon as attention started to turn toward him. I think he's done more than enough to deserve a vote.

Tyrion

Easy way to place a vote I think. His only point against Tyrion really is the stretch he made for a day 1 case and that he 'did a runner'. Yes, it can be a valid tactic, but it doesn't bother me in this instance.

If, hypothetically, I were to be a symp who was trying to signal his FM, then, hypothetically, Tyrion wouldn't be a good fit as an FM due to his response. On the other hand, hypothetically, the responses of, say, Bashful, who likes my way of thinking :stunned: , would hypthetically be a better hypothetical fit, hypothetically.

This strikes me, as do most of Gimli's posts, as a bit too flippant (I think that was the word used earlier). True, people like to joke. It is not unheard of for innocents to get in trouble for making jokes that others take a bit too seriously. It's not a smoking gun, but something about this (and all his responses up to now) seems ... like he's trying very hard not to be defensive and distract everyone from his neon sign of a clue by making them smile. Just a feeling, but nothing (so far) has dispelled that feeling.

I guess because the way I play I don't understand where they come from. I've never understood someone being able to extract a reasonable suspicion from RP. Obviously I'm glad they do, because it gets the game going, but I've never really got where it comes from. Any suspicion that is formed really ought to be pretty weak. A strong opinion just doesn't seem congruent with someone honestly analysing a bunch of jokes. What you say has merit as day one progresses, however, and later people hedging their bets and not taking a stand really is suspicious.

Right now people hedging their bets and not taking a stand is suspicious ... especially in a game where the symp really, really doesn't want to piss off their masters, whom they don't know. Santa would be overly cautious in this game because he has the potential to screw them up bad if he makes poor decisions.

Sleepy plays this off as personal preference and doesn't understand where strong opinions come from at this point in the game, yet he understands that it is necessary and is glad it happens. Yeah, I paraphrased that, but strong opinions (or at least faked strong opinions) are needed to put forth a case and get shit to happen. This explanation is not really compelling to me.

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Durin, your last answers were totally unsatisfying. These made me quite sure we can't find better lynch than you today.

My second suspect is Tyrion. Everybody noted his opinion on Sleeppy was middle of road, but nobody mentioned that his opinions on all other players were wishy-washy as well.

Gimli is the third.

What do you expect from me, I've told you what I think, I've told you why I think it. If you are unsatisfied you'll have to do whatever you think is best, if that's voting for me then go for it. Why is Gimli third, do you think he's a symp?

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That's fine, you are entitled to dislike it all you like. Obviously there's no reason to think that either a symp or an FM would actually believe what they say they believe, and even if Tyrion was telling the truth that means he isn't a symp, but an FM could as easily make the same mistake, but the point is that it was a really really strange thing to believe. I'm not sure I like the way you've been shielding Tyrion, but I'm happy with my vote for the time being.

People believe strange things all the time, I'm not even surprised by it anymore. You seem to have a pretty strong opinion about Durin, though. It's almost as if you hadn't been arguing that you find it strange that people have such strong opinions early on ... except your opinion still isn't taking a strong stand. You're happy with it for the time being. (yes, I realize there is a bit of contradiction in that last statement - The point I want to make is that Sleepy is soft and leaves plenty of wiggle room, and I threw in a little snark for my own amusement

)

RP have ended?

I think Sleeppy looks like most trustable player for now. So I dislike Durin's vote on him.

I also see no real case against Gimli (even by day 1 standarts), so I dislike Tyrion L. as well.

Since Tyrion was voted and I think it's a bit too early for building trains, I'll vote Durin.

I don't agree that Sleepy looks trustworthy, so would like a bit more explanation. (to be fair - it's at this point that the thread is a bit overwhelmed with the seven dwarves and I still have to re-read to figure out who said what when. Bashful's confusion and who he was actually talking about kind of threw me out of the groove I was in and I have to re-read the last few pages again to get a handle.)

If we're getting onto the more serious stuff now, I'm moving towards moving my vote to Bashful. I don't buy into the "mistake" of confusing me and Tyrion. Especially coming as it did after I'd pointed out that he looked a better FM fit than Tyrion because of it. The mistake just doesn't seem at all plausible to me.

Like I said - still haven't sorted this out, but looks like a nice distraction from you, doesn't it?

I dislike this post. It seems awfully chainsaw-y to me. Both Tyrion and Sleepy misinterpreted joke posts, but of the two it is only Sleepy who has 'stuck to his guns'. Tyrion backed off once he realized it was a joke post Gimli made. Also, could you give and example of a 'funny claim'? Of the two, it seems Tyrion fits the case made better then Sleepy.

Durin, any reason you have for choosing Sleepy over Tyrion, even though Tyrion fits the points in your case better?

Don't like Smurf going after Durin - whom I've mostly agreed with up to this point.

Accusing a strong and inquisitive player is what inexperienced killers often do. Because, you know, they need to get rid of such players to win.

Truely, inexperienced innocent players do this also, for different reasons; but mafia is a game where presumption of innocence doesn't exist. So, Durin has to explain his rather unnatural accusations... and you, by the way, should explain your rather unnatural defence of him.

And honestly, I don't get Happy's suspicion of Durin either.

Now, it gets interesting and I don't like this explanation of Gimli's at all.

1. Part of the reason I said it was to give the game a bit of a shove.

2. Part of the reason was to try and get feedback of some sort from FMs. Because neither the FMs know who the symps are, nor vice versa, in order for them to work together they would have to try and feel each other out. I was hoping to fish for an FM bite, and to my mind the closest thing to that I have was Bashful's comment and subsequent denial.

3. On a selfish point, if the FMs think I may be their symp, or if I attract general suspicion, I am less likely to be NKed.

4. At the back of the head when I was doing it was that, given that I am the Santa-symp, that it would be fun to mess with people.

:rolleyes:

One of the above statements is false.

Grumpy relpies and I'll let him make a few points for me ...

Oh c'mon, the symp could easily make the post that Gimli made and then blow it off as a joke. The FM would be left thinking that he's possibly the symp making a bold move, so they avoid killing him. The innocents meanwhile make arguments like the one you're making, defending him because it was just a joke. And the symp ends up in a good position. You make it sound like a symp would never do that but I disagree. Bold moves can win games.

See this is what I'm saying. When I saw the post my first thought was either direct symp clue that people would say is too blatant to be suspicious, or selfish innocent who wants to try to keep the FM from killing him.

Gimli if you intended your post to be realistic enough to catch a FM, then why did you respond to Tyrion's questioning with a surprised are you serious? reaction. If the post was intended to be realistic, wouldn't it make sense for somebody to notice it and ask about it in the thread?

That's as far as I've gotten. So far I'd have to say either Gimli or Sleepy are tied for my vote. Gimli's joke was fine, his reactions and explanations are not good. Sleepy hits me wrong for many small points that add up to a picture I don't like. I think Gimli looks worse at this point, but must look things over.

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Durin, your last answers were totally unsatisfying. These made me quite sure we can't find better lynch than you today.

I still need a thorough re-read, but as of now I would not consider lynching Durin so I'm pretty sure we can find a better one today. I don't have a huge problem with his answers and don't find what you all seem to find so objectionable. He and Grumpy have come closest to mirroring my thoughts as I read through this.

Your third was Gimli - that I could easily get behind. Your second spot belongs to Tyrion. What, besides his wishy-washyness warrants that? I find it odd that given his reaction to Gimli and his misunderstanding of the Santa role, that this is what you focus on.

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If you are unsatisfied you'll have to do whatever you think is best, if that's voting for me then go for it.

I voted you many hours ago. In fact, I was first to do this.

Answering Alberich: if you don't find Sleeppy trustable, it's your right. I do. So it's natural for me to suspect anybody accusing him (yours included).

Later, Durin gave us much more reasons to suspect him.

Why is Gimli third, do you think he's a symp?

May be killer, may be symp, may be even innocent - but he is too wishy-washy up to my tastes.

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I am seeing where Tyrion's wishy-washy post came from. By itself it is a fair case. I am having a hard time seeing where a FM or symp would call out Gimli like he did. The only case I can see it is if he were the symp and wanted to get Gimli lynched so the FM could see he wasn't and they should keep looking. I find that scenario more far-fetched than Gimli actually being the symp.

I am also now seeing why people dislike Durin, but I'm not sure I agree with the arguments against him. Doubt I would vote for him today.

Doc Happy - it's fine if you like Sleepy. I don't and can't see how you find him trustable when you don't explain it. (if I missed it, I apologize) I'm just trying to understand your thinking.

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Im still waiting for Tyrion to answer my questions, frankly other than him, I dont have any strong suspicions on anyone so far.surely Durin has been overdefensive but thats something I have witnessed lots of innocents do when under pressure on day one. while im being honest let me make another confession. I have been busy and mostly skimmed through the thread so thats why I dont suspect much.my schedule will not be that tight for the coming days so hopefully I will be of more help later.

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Doc - it's fine if you like Sleepy. I don't and can't see how you find him trustable when you don't explain it. (if I missed it, I apologize) I'm just trying to understand your thinking.

You meant me?

No, I didn't explain why I trust Sleeppy and I doubt I could. I am bad in explaining evident things.

He just plays in a way I'd expect innocent person to play. Makes the game driving.

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It is day 1.

14 players remain: A Smurf, Alberich, Bashful, Doc, Dopey, Durin, Gimli, Grummpy, Happy, Mini Me, Oompah Loompah, Sleeppy, Sneezy, Tyrion L.

8 votes are needed for a conviction or 7 to go to night.

4 votes for Durin (Happy, A Smurf, Mini Me, Grummpy)

2 votes for Gimli (Tyrion L, Sneezy)

1 vote for Bashful (Durin)

1 vote for Happy (Bashful)

1 vote for Sleeppy (Gimli)

1 vote for Tyrion L (Sleeppy)

4 players have not voted: Alberich, Doc, Dopey, Oompah Loompah.

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This is the most wishy washy post of the game so far. First Durin says Tyrion is right to look for symp clues, but then he follows up by saying the possible symp clue posted by Gimli was too blatant. So instead he suggests that Tyrion pointing out the symp clue was actually the more suspicious symp clue. Except then he hedges by adding that it's too early to tell anything.

Sound reasoning? No I don't think so.

Durin, did you see the last game? Cerwyn was FM and attacked one target. It happens all the time. It's very strange that you would try to defend Tyrion with that argument.

I said that I wasn't sure he would be so blatant, his random reactions to the situation make me think he might have now. I was only speculating re Tyrion I never thought it the more likely of the two possibilities and wasn't suggesting that at all. I didn't know we were alowed to discuss earlier games, however this game ius different in that the FM and symp are looking for eachother.

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Wait, what? Before, you tried to say Tyrion looked innocent because he was focused on one target. Now, after people disagree with that theory, you are saying that Sleepy looks suspicious for focusing on one target? That is a very big contradiction.

Also, I don't like how you are switching from an unpopular target to a more popular one.

I am not changing anything. I have said that I am still unsure of Sleeppy. It's his choice of target that concerns me, because the target he has chosen was the only one who has suggested a viable potential symp at the time. It didn't look like anybody else was willing to go there, so I chose to vote Bashful because it seemed a more realistic choice at the time. I would be more than happy to change to Gimli or Sleeppy if the opportunity arises.

EDIT: remove repeated quote

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