A Stannis thread!

[Lord Godric]

What if Mel backs Dany?

For her to do that she have to admit that everything she's said about Stannis being Azor Ahai was wrong or made up (like lightbringer was nothing more than a slightly magical sword). While it certainly could happen, it doesn't seem in Melisandre's character to admit she was entirely wrong and her Reborn Azor Ahai was a power-hungry imposter.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

"...Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...mother of dragons, slayer of lies."

Two of the three visions from the Slayer of Lies triplet from the House of the Undying appear to concern Stannis and Mel. The first is a splendid description of Stannis himself with his faux Lightbringer and missing the shadow that Mel stole from him to do it's murderous work. The third depicts the ambitions that Mel has made no secret of; raising a dragon from stone, and the probable means that she would employ to bring it about: shadowbinding.

These are both lies. Dany will slay them. How does one slay a lie? I would say by exposing the truth and discrediting the lie utterly, so that no one could be fooled by it. Perhaps even the ones who are telling the lie.

Stannis may prefer to break rather than bend, but it remains to be seen if he's strong enough to accept a hard truth. He actually seems to prefer it; that's why he keeps his plain-spoken Onion Knight around instead of just the usual sycophants and fulsome flatterers.

[Zizoz]

On liking Stannis, from a few pages ago: I do like him, to a certain degree, but not really. I think that some of the people who like him (including myself) do so because they can use Melisandre as a scapegoat. Take Renly, for instance. Would Stannis still have killed him if it weren't for Melisandre? Well, he wouldn't have done it in the same way, and perhaps he wouldn't have been able to at all, but I doubt he'd have any qualms with the idea. Stannis is the rightful king; Renly is a traitor, and the punishment for treason is death. The fact that Renly is Stannis' brother doesn't enter into it.

I'm not altogether convinced that Dany's arrival will convert anyone into thinking she's Azor Ahai. For one thing, she doesn't even have a sword. (The idea of the dragons as Lightbringer has always struck me the wrong way, if only because the dragons are mentioned separately immediately after.) In the case of Davos, I think his advice would be that the war is worth fighting, whether you're a prophesied hero or not.

[Mad Monkey]

I like Stannis, but I don't really agree with making Melisandre his scapegoat. While she does influence him, I don't think that he's some kind of helpless, hapless Emperor Norton type who happens to be in the room but has no real decision-making authority. Stannis himself would never consider passing the buck like that, and I don't think that it's right for his fans to do it for him.

[hero on the other side]

On re-read of CoK and I just made it through the Dany's chapter where she visits the house of the Undying (which seemed a misnomer since they, nor their floating heart turned out to be flame retardant)I was paying close attention to the visions D sees and one of them was a stone dragon rising from a smoking tower. Now I know her visions weren't all literal and we have to give some degree of how to read them, but it seems Dragonstone will see some changes.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Stannis may prefer to break rather than bend, but it remains to be seen if he's strong enough to accept a hard truth. He actually seems to prefer it; that's why he keeps his plain-spoken Onion Knight around instead of just the usual sycophants and fulsome flatterers.

I don't know. Preferring to get the plain facts about strategy and tactics isn't the same as being able to accept that one has been an utter fool and staked everything on an illusion.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I don't know. Preferring to get the plain facts about strategy and tactics isn't the same as being able to accept that one has been an utter fool and staked everything on an illusion.

:agree:

I think he never would accept it. He is gone to far even for really flexible man. He thinks that HE IS SAVIOUR OF MANKIND. HE EVEN TOLD THAT TO HIS MAN WHO SUPPORT HIM. HE HAS SILLY SWORD, FAKE SWORD IN REALITY. HE IS DOOMED IN THE WAR. Only he wouldn't accept it untill he is dead.

[Harry The Direwolf]

I like Stannis, but I don't really agree with making Melisandre his scapegoat. While she does influence him, I don't think that he's some kind of helpless, hapless Emperor Norton type who happens to be in the room but has no real decision-making authority. Stannis himself would never consider passing the buck like that, and I don't think that it's right for his fans to do it for him.

She already convinced him to forget his values in order to fulfill his destiny (Edric Storm).

While he still sees himself as a savior, I belive he is loosing control.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

To follow up what I was saying before, I think I made a mistake in only emphasizing that Stannis couldn't accept another person as Azor Ahai. I think it's as powerful a motivator that he couldn't accept a Targaryen as the legitimate ruler of Westeros. If it turns out that the daughter of Aerys II is the true queen of Westeros, then literally everything that Stannis has done in his adult life save perhaps the marriage to Selyse is in question. If Stannis was wrong, then he's been a traitor in arms for two decades and complicit in the downfall of the true king. His iron hand over Storm's End during the rebellion is the act of a misguided despot, who caused the death of associates who wished only to remain loyal and true. His tenure on the king's council places him at the very center of a traitorous conspiracy. Pushing his own claim is nothing more than vanity, and he would have had no lawful authority to kill Ser Cortnay Penrose or Renly. (He's troubled by Renly's death anyway and he thinks it's justified by his claim; imagine discovering otherwise.) If the Targaryens held the rightful claim all along, then Stannis is a traitor, a fool, and a murderer.

(And all of a sudden it occurs to me that I would be very interested to learn what Stannis thought or did regarding the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys, or Robert's desire to have Viserys and Daenerys assassinated.)

ETA: Of course Stannis was still under siege at Storm's End when Aegon and Rhaenys were killed, so he could have done little.

Another man might rationalize this away by saying that Robert was the right king for his time, or something to that effect. (Certainly I don't think that Stannis is a traitor or fool, but then I don't believe in the idea of a "rightful king" and he does.) But Stannis Baratheon does not think that way. Stannis Baratheon believes that a man should be punished for his crimes no matter what good he may have done, and that there is nothing so despicable as a man who knowingly sides with a traitor, so he won't be able to let himself off the hook that way. The only thing that could make this okay psychologically is for the Targaryens to have somehow lost their legitimacy, which would make Daenerys a usurper and thus nobody that he could support.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

To follow up what I was saying before, I think I made a mistake in only emphasizing that Stannis couldn't accept another person as Azor Ahai. I think it's as powerful a motivator that he couldn't accept a Targaryen as the legitimate ruler of Westeros. If it turns out that the daughter of Aerys II is the true queen of Westeros, then literally everything that Stannis has done in his adult life save perhaps the marriage to Selyse is in question.

Except... Stannis still thinks what he did in supporting his brother was probably wrong - he had to choose between what he knew was right and his family, so he made the best choice he could. Once that decision was made it doesn't mean that every following decision (holding Storm's End) was somehow evil. It shows that once a decision is made, Stannis will do what he can to back it up. He 100% followed up on a decision that he was only 51% sure of.

So I don't think that Stannis admitting that he was wrong in backing Robert will cause some kind of psychotic break: he's already most of the way there in his head! Jon or Davos can push him the last 10% once Daenerys shows up.

I do agree that Daenerys would be much helped if she had some kind of special sword, or if the dragon/sword parallel was made more explicit.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I don't know. Preferring to get the plain facts about strategy and tactics isn't the same as being able to accept that one has been an utter fool and staked everything on an illusion.

More than just strategy and tactics, I'd say. Davos pointed out that his King himself was a traitor. His King! And what does Stannis do in response? Makes him his Hand. Then Davos completely defies him by stealing Edric Storm way from the sacrificial pyre that Stannis and Mel are planning. Davos knows perfectly well that Stannis doesn't want that to happen, or he wouldn't have done it in secret. He then points out that Stannis is being a bad king and neglecting his duty of protecting his people (he sugarcoats it, of course). The next time we hear of Davos, Stannis is praising him for his rebukes. These are criticisms that cut right to the heart of Stannis own legitimacy, in their way. He was a treasonous rebel who prospered, and now he's a bad king who wants to murder children....not unlike Aerys.

And in aDwD

Spoiler

Mel tells Jon that the King is fond of him, though he threatened to have his head struck off three times while they argued.

. So yeah, I really do see Stannis as someone who likes when someone has the guts to stand up to him and challenge his assumptions. All the harsh talk can be deceiving, what matters more is what he does. He needs Davos to be his conscience, and appreciates it. Donal Noye's glib metallurgical analogy is something taken far too seriously. Renly was much more than shiny copper, and Robert was much less than true steel.

And Stannis has already bent considerably. If he was really someone who would not yield a single inch when his rights were at issue, would he have retreated from Dragonstone rather than die defending it? His sail north was a game changer, jumping from an untenable, precarious corner into a power vacuum in a totally unexpected region where his odds are much greater. Now that was a strategic decision, but it gives the lie to Noye's brittle iron claim. He could have refused to budge from his castle and been broken as a reward for his obduracy. But he was more flexible than that.

[TrackerNeil]

And Stannis has already bent considerably. If he was really someone who would not yield a single inch when his rights were at issue, would he have retreated from Dragonstone rather than die defending it? His sail north was a game changer, jumping from an untenable, precarious corner into a power vacuum in a totally unexpected region where his odds are much greater. Now that was a strategic decision, but it gives the lie to Noye's brittle iron claim. He could have refused to budge from his castle and been broken as a reward for his obduracy. But he was more flexible than that.

Stannis made that move at least partially because Davos almost literally put his neck on the chopping block to persuade him. Will Davos - assuming he was not beheaded by the Manderlys - be able to make the same persuasive move in favor of Stannis' abandoning his claim? Doesn't sound likely to me.

Besides, Stannis moving north is merely a shift in strategy, and not the abandonment of a goal. By heading to the Wall, Stannis is defending the realm from a threat he believes exists, and establishing himself in a more defensible position than Dragonstone or Storm's End. These tactics do not signal a willingness to back away from his claim to the throne. Therefore, I would say that with proper motivation Stannis can be flexible in terms of his methods, but he remains utterly relentless in the pursuit of his goals.

Don't get me wrong; I'm a diehard Stannis fan, and have been for years. However, I don't see him ever yielding his claim. PDC is correct; to do so is to repudiate everything he's done over the last two years. Like PDC, I suspect Stannis is going to engage in some pretty dirty work in the books to come, which will make him even more reluctant to question the basic legitimacy of his purposes.

[lukahnli]

More than just strategy and tactics, I'd say. Davos pointed out that his King himself was a traitor. His King! And what does Stannis do in response? Makes him his Hand. Then Davos completely defies him by stealing Edric Storm way from the sacrificial pyre that Stannis and Mel are planning. Davos knows perfectly well that Stannis doesn't want that to happen, or he wouldn't have done it in secret. He then points out that Stannis is being a bad king and neglecting his duty of protecting his people (he sugarcoats it, of course). The next time we hear of Davos, Stannis is praising him for his rebukes. These are criticisms that cut right to the heart of Stannis own legitimacy, in their way. He was a treasonous rebel who prospered, and now he's a bad king who wants to murder children....not unlike Aerys.

And in aDwD

Spoiler

Mel tells Jon that the King is fond of him, though he threatened to have his head struck off three times while they argued.

. So yeah, I really do see Stannis as someone who likes when someone has the guts to stand up to him and challenge his assumptions. All the harsh talk can be deceiving, what matters more is what he does. He needs Davos to be his conscience, and appreciates it. Donal Noye's glib metallurgical analogy is something taken far too seriously. Renly was much more than shiny copper, and Robert was much less than true steel.

And Stannis has already bent considerably. If he was really someone who would not yield a single inch when his rights were at issue, would he have retreated from Dragonstone rather than die defending it? His sail north was a game changer, jumping from an untenable, precarious corner into a power vacuum in a totally unexpected region where his odds are much greater. Now that was a strategic decision, but it gives the lie to Noye's brittle iron claim. He could have refused to budge from his castle and been broken as a reward for his obduracy. But he was more flexible than that.

Wow totally agree.

[lukahnli]

Shit....double post.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Will Davos - assuming he was not beheaded by the Manderlys - be able to make the same persuasive move in favor of Stannis' abandoning his claim? Doesn't sound likely to me.

However, I don't see him ever yielding his claim. PDC is correct; to do so is to repudiate everything he's done over the last two years. Like PDC, I suspect Stannis is going to engage in some pretty dirty work in the books to come, which will make him even more reluctant to question the basic legitimacy of his purposes.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Stannis will slap his head and say "Oops, I guess I was wrong, better start supporting my rightful Queen" and then proceed to do so and live happily ever after. I agree that Stannis has a very dark road ahead of him, and I can see him realising that he was wrong after everything has gone fubar and he lays dieing in his blood, with his Onion Knight at his side, loyal to the end.

I think "slayer of lies" has to mean something.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I think "slayer of lies" has to mean something.

Actually, if there was some moment right before his death where Stannis realized that he'd been a terrible fool, I'm not sure that would be at odds with his character as established so far. What I don't see is the idea that Stannis can take that revelation of his incredible folly, change his mind about something so fundamental, and be able to move forward.

MDIND:

Except... Stannis still thinks what he did in supporting his brother was probably wrong...

Um, what? He clearly thinks no such thing, because Robert's legitimacy as a king is the basis for his own claim and hence everything Stannis has done since he's first introduced in A Clash of Kings.