Guy Gavriel Kay

[williamjm]

I can say that I was not impressed with the Last Light of the Sun, although to be fair, I have only read it the one time. I do not think that it was bad, per se; but I do consider it to be .... weak? Uninspired? I am not sure that I can even specify what I thought wrong with it unless I read it again.

It wasn't a bad book, it was a fairly entertaining read with some good characterisation and an interesting setting, but I don't think it was as memorable as most of Kay's other books. The overall plot was OK, but felt a bit underwhelming.

I consider the second Mosaic novel to be better than the first. I like that he actually did a duology; I cannot say that I know of another novelist who has done one.

I think the second novel is better as well. Duologies do seem to be rarer than trilogies, but there have been occasional examples - Peter F Hamilton's Commonwealth series, for example.

Would I be alone in considering Urte de Miraval an antagonist, not a villain? Galbert of Garsenc and Alberico of Barbadior certainly are. You can argue that Brandin of Ygrath also is, but he has more panache and style than Alberico. Galbert I appreciate for his planning, and it is damn near impossible to find someone better than Brandin for knowing how to take vengeance for something.

It is relatively rare for there to be outright villains who don't have any redeeming qualities in Kay's post-Fionavar books (in Fionavar the villain is pretty much the embodiement of evil), although there are a few examples like Galbert or Alberico. I would say that Urte isn't really a villain at all, you could argue he isn't even really an antagonist despite initial appearances.

[Fenryng]

I would say that Urte isn't really a villain at all, you could argue he isn't even really an antagonist despite initial appearances.

Really? I am not saying that he is an antagonist in an overall sense; rather that in one aspect of his life (which is a really large aspect, admittedly) he is an antagonist. In this case, he is an antagonist of Bertrain de Talair.

I always thought that Bertran's lost love got off easy by dying; she did not have to deal with all of the consequences of her actions. Although I would admit that it could be argued that she did exactly that, by her dying.

[kuroishi]

Damn I love that book !

I don't really know if what I'm gonna say can be seen as a spoiler, but in doubt... (spoiler on Song for Arbonne)

I always felt bad for Urte, living in a society where his qualities are overlooked and his bad points enhanced. He always had the bad part in the story with Bertran, when if you look at just the fact, even without knowing what he reveals in the end, he didn't do worse than his rival. He was the cuckolded one, all he really did was hide the child. But his bad reputation, which was doubtlessly in great part fueled by Bertan himself, ensured that everybody painted him as the bad guy.

(Well, yeah, it was spoilery.)

And now, I'll have to re-read it. :(

[Maia]

Well, personally I'd rank Kay's books thusly:

1. Tigana

2. Song for Arbonne

3. Sarantine duology

4. Lions of Al-Rassan

5. Fionavar

6. Last Light of the Sun

Still reading Ysabel, so no ranking for it. Anyway, I hope that Kay returns to the more original worldbuilding in his future books. IMHO, pseudo-historical settings tend to cramp his style.

[wolverine]

I seem to be in the minority here, but I really thought The Lions of Al'Rassan was just above average. I was not impressed enough to read any other books by Kay but he seems to be very well regarded on this site.

[Alexia]

For whatever reason, the bookstore didn't have The Lions of Al-Rassan but it did have Tigana. :thumbsup:

:read: :read: :read:

[mjgambino]

I also thought that The Lions of Al' Rassan was terribly average. That being said, don't let that keep you from reading his other books. IMO, Tigana is one of the best standalone fantasy novels ever. A Song for Arbonne is very good as well.

I seem to be in the minority here, but I really thought The Lions of Al'Rassan was just above average. I was not impressed enough to read any other books by Kay but he seems to be very well regarded on this site.

[Liadin]

I'm struggling with The Lions of Al-Rassan right now.... I'm not really familiar with Kay but saw that his work is highly recommended. To me (almost 200 pages in) the plot seems quite slow, with lots of events that are set up as if they were momentous but to me feel quite mundane, and the characters perfect to Gary Stu/Mary Sue levels. (I especially can't stand the incredibly attractive assassin/poet. To be honest, if I'd known the book included a major character who was supposed to be brilliant at everything from sex to assassinating people to writing poetry, I doubt I'd have picked up the book.) Does this mean I'm just not the right reader for his work, or is it this particular book?

[Lord O' Bones]

I'm struggling with The Lions of Al-Rassan right now.... I'm not really familiar with Kay but saw that his work is highly recommended. To me (almost 200 pages in) the plot seems quite slow, with lots of events that are set up as if they were momentous but to me feel quite mundane,

I think it picks up sufficiently in the end.

and the characters perfect to Gary Stu/Mary Sue levels. (I especially can't stand the incredibly attractive assassin/poet. To be honest, if I'd known the book included a major character who was supposed to be brilliant at everything from sex to assassinating people to writing poetry, I doubt I'd have picked up the book.)

Um, yeah. That is a bit hard to swallow. Every main character is the awesomest awsomer that ever awesomed.

Does this mean I'm just not the right reader for his work, or is it this particular book?

Having only read this one, I'm not qualified to say. But I think apart from above, and a bit of nonsense with the ending (minor thing, I suppose) I think you'll be well served to carry on with this book, at least.

[Stalker]

Definitely Lions of Al-Rassan - it's a masterpiece of his, I'd say.

Myself, I've tried reading Last Light of the Sun, Sailing to Sarantium, Song of Arbonne and none of them really stand up to Lions (although Sarantium is pretty good, just not my cup of tea when it comes to characters).

I, too, would pick Lions, with Sailing is a close second, as best of the books typical for Kay's style.

Heard good things about Tigana, but it seems it's a "love it or hate it" kind of book,

I don't think that applies to this forum. Tigana is an early work, and Kay was clearly not able to do exactly what he wanted. Thus it is less a 'typical' Kay work, with more generic fantasy elements instead. I can see how that would be hated in groups that doesn't really care for the fantasy elements, but I'd be surprised if that applies for many boarders.

I would recommend reading both Lions and Tigana, even if you disliked the first. They are sufficiently dissimilar that you may still greatly enjoy the latter.

[Ran]

Kay's characters do tend to be exceptional people under exceptional circumstances. In the case of The Lions of Al-Rassan, Rodrigo Belmonte and Ammar ibn Khairan are both based on two exceptional figures from Spain's medieval history, Rodrigo on the Spanish national hero El Cid and the famous Moorish poet, general, and statesman Ibn 'Ammar. They were even exiled to the same Moorish city at the same time, historically, although it's not known whether they ever met.

It's true that the real-life figures were probably not quite so awesome of Kay's characters, but then he bumps everyone up a little bit so it evens out.

I think it's a beautiful work, very carefully set-up with some lovely imagery and passages, and a good deal of thematic depth -- there's certainly a relevance today for the meeting of opposed cultures and how one makes a space for oneself when you're on the frontlines of a cultural war. But as I said, it's also his most commercial, mainstream sort of work, lacking perhaps some of the rough edges that actually give some added character to many of his novels (The Last Light of the Sun is the most deliberately rough-edged of all, in some ways).

[williamjm]

the characters perfect to Gary Stu/Mary Sue levels. (I especially can't stand the incredibly attractive assassin/poet. To be honest, if I'd known the book included a major character who was supposed to be brilliant at everything from sex to assassinating people to writing poetry, I doubt I'd have picked up the book.) Does this mean I'm just not the right reader for his work, or is it this particular book?

Kay does have a tendency to make some of his characters exceptional, it is probably most obvious in Lions because in most of his books the good-at-just-about-everything characters aren't the main protagonists. For example, in Fionavar Diarmuid is another example of that sort of character, but although he is a significant character he isn't one of the four main protagonists (I can't remember if he even gets any Point-of-view chapters of his own) and although the main characters may be good at some things they are definitely flawed characters who certainly aren't brilliant at everything they try. Alessan in Tigana is similar, but again he isn't the protagonist.

It's a fantasy world, so why not make everything beautiful, all people nearly perfect, and ignore the unpleasant aspects of pre-modern life?

He may not be as 'gritty' as GRRM, say, but I'm not sure I'd agree that he ignores the unpleasant aspects. Many of his books have the theme that life is cheap, particularly for the lower classes, see the civillians being massacred in Lions as a side-effect of the political disputes or all the innocent deaths that occur due to Alessan's quest for vengeance in Tigana. Also, two of his protagonists start the books mourning wives/lovers who have died in a plague.

[automne]

To be honest, if I'd known the book included a major character who was supposed to be brilliant at everything from sex to assassinating people to writing poetry, I doubt I'd have picked up the book.

Yes but only Kay can get away with that kind of characters. That must say something about his talent, no?

Kay's characters are exceptional, yet they are flawed and are capable of doing terrible things in a World where violence is never far away.

[mary]

Man, you gave me the urge to re-read some of Kay`s books. I actually read them all but Ysabel once, starting with Tigana, followed by Lions, Sarantium and then all the rest.

Loved Tigana (as it presents one of the most wonderful villains ever), loved Lions even more (exceptional characters are fine, but I loved the non-exceptional heroine more).

Sarantium duology is very well written; Sailing is more adventure-like and Lord of Emperors is all about being the best you can in your thing, whether it's dancing or mosaicing. An ode to the artist.

Did not like Song for Arbonne and The Last Light quite as much, though they were nice.

And finally the Fionavar - as said before it had very strong parts along with some weaker ones, but it's worth reading after you`re done with the latter works.

Overall one of the reasons I love these romans is for their emotional value. I don't cry over books very often (more like not at all), but stuff like the catharsis of Tigana made me shed a tear. I meen, sure I prefer Martin`s brutality, but every now and then such a sensitive setting of the plot solution manages not to feel like a sticky cliche.

[Liadin]

It's a fantasy world, so why not make everything beautiful, all people nearly perfect, and ignore the unpleasant aspects of pre-modern life?

This is diametrically opposed to what I look for in literature of any sort, so I suppose GGK isn't for me.

What I do find confusing is that he includes plenty of atrocities, some at GRRM levels although there aren't as many of them. (In the less than 200 pages I've read, there have been a couple of massacres and a pregnant woman killed in a hideous way, all described in detail.) That I'm not looking for in fantasy; I can tolerate it, but I don't think the inclusion of heinous violence improves a book (generally speaking). At the same time, the main characters are so... er.... extraordinary. I don't care if they're based on real people; the real people would have annoyed me too if they were like that.

Ah well. I can't complain too much. I got it from the library.

[kuroishi]

I meen, sure I prefer Martin`s brutality, but every now and then such a sensitive setting of the plot solution manages not to feel like a sticky cliche.

So, what do people think of GGKay in comparison to GRRM ? Actually, I'm kind of surprised to see so much praise for Kay on this forum. I've considered these two authors as my two favorite contemporary fantasy writers for a long time but I always saw them as very different from each other. So do you see something in common between these two writers that would appeal to so many people ?

[mary]

So, what do people think of GGKay in comparison to GRRM?...So do you see something in common between these two writers that would appeal to so many people ?

I can only speak for myself, but not being a big fantasy fan Tigana introduced this sort of literature on this level to me (LoTR doesn't count). So there would always be a warm place in my heart for Kay, even had I not liked his other books.

Both in ASOIAF and Kay's stuff I love the fact that magic is just part of their worlds, and characters are the core. But most of all it's the great writing I guess, that makes Martin and Kay stay on my top-authors list.

[paran]

Love Kay's work. Currently rereading Last Light of the Sun - remembering why I liked it so much. He changes his style of writing and dialogue to suit the time and setting so well. It's completely different from the Sarantine books, but no less beautiful/evocative. As far as rankings:

1. Sarantine Mosaic

2. Last Light of the Sun

3. Lions of Al Rassan

4. Tigana

[williamjm]

So, what do people think of GGKay in comparison to GRRM ? Actually, I'm kind of surprised to see so much praise for Kay on this forum. I've considered these two authors as my two favorite contemporary fantasy writers for a long time but I always saw them as very different from each other. So do you see something in common between these two writers that would appeal to so many people ?

I would say they have a lot of things in common, as well as some differences. They both tend to have relatively low-magic worlds that take a lot of inspiration from real medieval history, they both focus more on politics, intrigue and nobels/kingdoms competing than going on a quest to defeat a Dark Lord. They both have good, complex characterisation with some moral ambiguity, villains who have understandable motivations rather than just wanting to destroy existence. Their writing styles may differ, but I think there are definitely similarities in the type of stories they write. It is noticeable that Fionavar is generally the least-favourite of Kay's work on here, and I suspect that might partially be because it differs most from ASOIAF and is much closer to the cliched Epic Fantasy novel (of course, the quality of the writing being below Kay's later work will also be a factor).

[Stalker]

Agreed. If you don't like perfectly beautiful people who are as good at swordplay as they are at poetry, then, on the whole, GGK is not for you.

I think I know which character you're thinking of, but Lions isn't the whole of Kay's works.

It's a fantasy world, so why not make everything beautiful, all people nearly perfect, and ignore the unpleasant aspects of pre-modern life? If that suspension of belief is easy for you, then you will like the more poetic (rather than realistic). On the other hand, if you find that suspension of belief difficult, trite, or contrived, then stick with "gritty fantasy" :) Which is not GGK.

This I have to strongly disagree with. If it is one thing that is noticeable, it's the realistic settings. Partly, Kay gets this for free by using worlds that are intentionally badly disguised version of real times and places. Yes, the books are far from "gritty", but that's a matter of focus. Kay is interested in individual experiences, personal relationships, emotions.

So, what do people think of GGKay in comparison to GRRM ? Actually, I'm kind of surprised to see so much praise for Kay on this forum. I've considered these two authors as my two favorite contemporary fantasy writers for a long time but I always saw them as very different from each other. So do you see something in common between these two writers that would appeal to so many people ?

It's a good question. I do like both, but for different reasons. I do have some things in common, like their realism, but it mostly sums up to 'not being standard fantasy'.

It is noticeable that Fionavar is generally the least-favourite of Kay's work on here, and I suspect that might partially be because it differs most from ASOIAF and is much closer to the cliched Epic Fantasy novel (of course, the quality of the writing being below Kay's later work will also be a factor).

Not sure about that. Note how many list Tigana as their favourite, and dislikes the mature works. I would say your second point is the more likely answer.