Jaime and Aerys

[Rockroi]

"How did my Bran come to fall?" "I threw him out of the window".

Lets get this into perspective, because as an act, there is something strangely similar between Jaime killing Aerys and Jaime tossing Bran "out of the window."

By no means are the similar IN INTENTION! Jaime killed Aerys to save the realm; he tossed Bran out the window to save himself. That is not the similarity.

The similarity is the 6 seconds between when Jaime saves Bran and when Jaime tosses Bran.

Everyone forgets this, but before Jaime sends Bran to his certain death, he saves Bran. Bran starts to fall when Cersei sees him; Jaime runs to the window, reaches down and lifts Bran to safety. For a moment. Had Jaime done nothing, Bran would have fallen. Jaime sees the boy in distress (and he may or may not have appreciated the ... precarious situation he and his sister were in at that moment) and rescues him.

And then he looks at Cersei.

Let me be clear: I am NOT blaming Cersei; I blame Jaime 100% for pushing the boy out the window. However, in those six seconds between Jaime the Savior and Jaime the Boyslayer, Jaime is pushed HEAD LONG into his conflict between his duty as a knight and his duty to his family (and himself).

That conflict of duties is an echo of Jaime's conflict between protecting the King he swore his oath to, and protecting the citizens of the realm. Jaime hated Aerys. And killing him was really his finest act. But that conflict was there and people remind him of it all the time. He was proud of his action in killing Aerys and saving KL.

And then he looks at Ned Stark.

And he is reminded that he killed a King he was sworn to protect. Nobody- even those he now is supposedly in concert with -likes that. They see his conflict AND THEY JUDGE HIM! They remind Jaime that they say he chose incorrectly. To Jaime, they can judge all they want; they were not there. To Jaime, he makes the choice; he is "the decider" if you will. And no character in these books is more willing to live with his choices more than Jaime Lannister. Thus, when Jaime decided to kill Aerys he was JUST AS AWARE of the conflict of duties as when he decided to kill Bran. He felt it, he weighed both sides, and he made his choice.

The things we do for love.

[Antonius Pius]

I trully believe that no one seriously thinks that a hand (or a Sword) can be evil per se. These are only instruments and it is known.

I didn't really think he was arguing that. I was being fatuous.

In particular case with Jaime (as you have pointed out as well) we have also the exalting effect of that - his right hand was (more or less) not only his essential and main instrument but also the well deserved ground for his pride. It is always a dramatic (and potentially redemptory stimulating) moment when such a huge loss incidently occured.

The hand becomes the analogy for Jaime's personality. GRRM has done a good job of writing a conflicted character.

And he is reminded that he killed a King he was sworn to protect. Nobody- even those he now is supposedly in concert with -likes that. They see his conflict AND THEY JUDGE HIM! They remind Jaime that they say he chose incorrectly. To Jaime, they can judge all they want; they were not there. To Jaime, he makes the choice; he is "the decider" if you will. And no character in these books is more willing to live with his choices more than Jaime Lannister.

"By what right does the wolf judge the lion?"

"It all comes down to Aerys."

They can judge all they want, but Jaime certainly isn't fine with it. He even lashes out at Genna, ffs. He doesn't want anybody to bring up his kingslaying. He wants glory, wanted it badly, but now he has shit for honour. A bitter draught, and the years haven't made it easier for him to swallow.

Thus, when Jaime decided to kill Aerys he was JUST AS AWARE of the conflict of duties as when he decided to kill Bran. He felt it, he weighed both sides, and he made his choice.

I agree for the most part, but Jaime wasn't fully aware of the results of killing Aerys. IMO, in true fashion, Jaime decides to act, consequences be damned. When he recollects the deed itself, he states that he wanted to slay Aerys effectively in secret, and let others claim the praise or the blame. That he would think there would be praise to win is evidence of his lack of understanding. When his fathers bannermen burst in, "just in time to see the end of it [Jaime murdering Aerys]", then he knows.

[Jaak]

"By what right does the wolf judge the lion?"

"It all comes down to Aerys."

They can judge all they want, but Jaime certainly isn't fine with it. He even lashes out at Genna, ffs. He doesn't want anybody to bring up his kingslaying. He wants glory, wanted it badly, but now he has shit for honour. A bitter draught, and the years haven't made it easier for him to swallow.

I agree for the most part, but Jaime wasn't fully aware of the results of killing Aerys. IMO, in true fashion, Jaime decides to act, consequences be damned. When he recollects the deed itself, he states that he wanted to slay Aerys effectively in secret, and let others claim the praise or the blame. That he would think there would be praise to win is evidence of his lack of understanding. When his fathers bannermen burst in, "just in time to see the end of it [Jaime murdering Aerys]", then he knows.

If the bannermen had burst in with Jaime leading the defence of Red Keep elsewhere and Aerys alone in the throne room - would they have been blamed for killing Aerys?

They had oaths broken, too. We know that late Lord Frey was sworn to the king, not to Tully alone, and thus lord Crakehall was sworn to the king, not Tywin alone.

[Daemrion]

IIRC, you're basing this on the conviction that the pyromancers were fire-crazy and also wanted to die in flames. I disagree. I think they were down in a hole, hoping and waiting for everything to blow over. Unfortunately, the text doesn't really specify which scenario is the more likely.

They were the pyromancers chosen by Aerys and Rossart who were both crazy enough to actually go through with it. I think they must have chosen the other two who would actually go through with it given the orders. Otherwise the plan would have almost probably failed regardless.

[Lord Mord]

Rockroi,

The reason we like Jaime is NOT because he is cool or catchy or cunning or devious or sharp, intelligent, a killer, etc.

I disagree. I think the depth of my like for Jaime may have some rational, decent basis, but the most basic reasons I like him are that he's cool, catchy, cunning, devious, sharp, intelligent, and even though I don't actually condone murder, sometimes the fact that he's a killer doesn't hurt.

Several things that Jaime does are beyond "not cool." Some things I hate. But I like the guy anyway.

[Jaak]

They were the pyromancers chosen by Aerys and Rossart who were both crazy enough to actually go through with it. I think they must have chosen the other two who would actually go through with it given the orders. Otherwise the plan would have almost probably failed regardless.

They also must have chosen the two who were not crazy or suicidal in such a way as to go through the plan without orders.

Just imagine. Aerys is saved in time by Varys, Tywin or Mace - and then the pyromancers set the wildfire. They themselves know exactly when and where to flee, while Aerys, Rossart and Jaime do not know when the fire would unexpectedly burst. With Aerys, Rossart and Jaime dead, no one knows to order the pyromancers hunted down in Oldtown or Free Cities....

[3idcrow]

Rockroi,

I disagree. I think the depth of my like for Jaime may have some rational, decent basis, but the most basic reasons I like him are that he's cool, catchy, cunning, devious, sharp, intelligent, and even though I don't actually condone murder, sometimes the fact that he's a killer doesn't hurt.

Several things that Jaime does are beyond "not cool." Some things I hate. But I like the guy anyway.

:agree:

Jaime is just too much fun; he is a fun to love as much as a fun to hate. He is the one who is capable of doing absolutely anything which makes him unpredictable: he swears to Aerys, he kills Aerys, he saves Bran, he cripples Bran, he saves Brienne but could as well kill her easily, he saved Edmure (please don't tell me he didn't) but under the same circumstances he could have killed him as well. We like this air of danger in people. It explains our admiration of famous outlaws and such. We don't want our daughters to date people like that but we can't help their attraction.

This is the reason why people in a zoo tend to ignore some stupid goat, no matter how rare, and crowd the pavillions with lions who are sleeping much of the time.

[1000 days Anne]

Why do I only see this topic right now? I wanna have some fun too! :box:

Why has Jaime killed Aerys? Because it was the only choice he could take.

As you have alread said, 17-y-old, deluded and abused Jaime, a witness and a victim of all Aerys' madness, who saw the Starks being cruelly murdered, who watched Aerys raping his wife and queen, found out Aerys' plans of burning KL - and everyone inside its walls - with wildfire.

And, remembering, at the time Jaime joined KG, he was almost so naive and idealist about chivalry and honor as Brienne and had all his dreams and hopes taken by reality - and by his mad king.

Aerys ordered him to kill his father, the same Aerys above, and wanted to burn alive hundreds - or even thousands - of people. What did Jaime? He did what he could to stop it: killed Rossart first, so Aerys.

I don't think, given the situation, he could thing "wow, instead of killing Aerys I can arrest him and wait for some of the rebels come and do the duty" or "I can assure him a lawful judgement!".

It was a war, it was a battle, Jaime was blinded for bloodlust, he did the thing he thought was right: the kingslaying. He did the right thing to do, the thing a knight would do. It turned him a oathbreaker, but saved KL.

And I think, as someone had already appointed, that Ned's judgment was less about his deed than about Tywin's position at the war. In addition, I don't think Ned would believe something different that what his eyes have seen: the golden lion sitting the Iron Throne.

And after that, Jaime has became the kingslayer, the oathbreaker, the nihilistic one we are presented at AGOT.

And about Edmure's baby, for me it was clear as water that Jaime was bluffing.

[nana&crow]

That said, I actually empathize with 17 y.o. disillusioned Jamie of the Kingsguard more than any other incarnation of Jamie. He was so young. His king used him to hurt his family, abused him, traumatized him. So much of Jamie' psychology through this period - dissociation, delusion - reminds me of the psychology of a rape/trauma victim. I don't think that's an overstatement. No wonder he snapped, no wonder he murdered. He was a sworn brother of the Kingsguard, he had no business killing Aerys regardless of however much one could argue Aerys deserved it, but the context of his crime is important. In a modern context, I think he'd be charged with second degree murder, not first.

I think Jaimie has always been driven mainly by his pride as a swordsman. for him to be accepted into KG at such a young age was the ultimate proof of his worth and skill as a warrior. when he discovers the ulterior motive behind this was actually an attempt to have his father under control I think he feels robbed of that proof - he was not chosen because he was outstanding as he thought, but because he was Tywin's heir. his pride must have suffered and he was 17, so when the time comes for Aerys to use him just as he had planned Jaimie spits on him: "you wanted me near because I'm my father's son? you'll see how good an idea that was" sort of reasoning.

it was murder and he had sworn to protect the king, but somehow I would think worse of him if he had turned out to be the kind to kill his father just because he was asked to by his liege.

[dolorouseddwasright]

I think Jaimie has always been driven mainly by his pride as a swordsman. for him to be accepted into KG at such a young age was the ultimate proof of his worth and skill as a warrior. when he discovers the ulterior motive behind this was actually an attempt to have his father under control I think he feels robbed of that proof - he was not chosen because he was outstanding as he thought, but because he was Tywin's heir. his pride must have suffered

That's an interesting thought. It shows that the Kings Guard was used politically in Aerys' time as well as under Robert & Joffrey. There's a thread in the Feast section about Champion Confusion that has had discussion on the Kings Guard and it's lack of skill/excessive political use. If you haven't perused it yet, please do. I think you may enjoy it and add to the discussion.

:)

[wyman's cook]

haven't read teh whole thread (sorry :) ) but i'd just like to add this, if someone hasn't pointed it out allready

jaime had to kill Aerys...someone had to kill Aerys and jaime for all sorts of reasons was the one to actually do it..

as earlier posts notice, Aerys would have been a rallying figure for loyalists and anti-baratheons, as also a red-banner for all those displeased or even seriously harmed by his madness..how could such a rebellion (against the "mad" king) end without blooshed ?

Ned proved ,once again, to be a great hipocrite and a fake (i do like the man, but he has been a really rigid biggot-fake, at times) by being so hard on Jaime for what he did..same goes for Barristan, that bent the knee to one of his lieges killer (bob baratheon) etc etc..

[Tini]

Aerys had to die to make place for Robert Baratheon. But it was not necessary that Jaime killed him. Jaime was the the king's bodyguard. He was expected to defend him. What Jaime did was considered murder because he was not fighting on the side of the rebellion. If the rebels had killed Aerys, it would have been acceptable because it would have been considered an execution. The result may be the same for Aerys, but it is a difference between committing a crime and upholding the law.

[Mark Antony]

Agree completely with op. :cheers: Was about to make a thread like this glad I searched