A Thread for Small Questions II

[Jmorr22903]

Does anyone know of a good thread that addresses the fact that Lady Catelyn is more or less responsiblt for the downfall of the Starks? She convinced Ned to become Robert's hand, and gave her son loads of what turned out to be bum advice (Roose Bolton leading the Northern foot.) I'm sure there are other examples that I can't recall.

[Alexia]

Does anyone know of a good thread that addresses the fact that Lady Catelyn is more or less responsiblt for the downfall of the Starks? She convinced Ned to become Robert's hand, and gave her son loads of what turned out to be bum advice (Roose Bolton leading the Northern foot.) I'm sure there are other examples that I can't recall.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Jackals Justice]

LOL

There was once upon a time where I felt similar. But in Martins universe, if you really take time to analyze all the characters mistakes, you can find a way to blame just about anything on just about anyone.

It's kind of a futile effort just blaming it on one person, it all depends on who you like best/worse, because they all really caused it.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Does anyone know of a good thread that addresses the fact that Lady Catelyn is more or less responsiblt for the downfall of the Starks? She convinced Ned to become Robert's hand, and gave her son loads of what turned out to be bum advice (Roose Bolton leading the Northern foot.) I'm sure there are other examples that I can't recall.

Don't worry about the laughter too much... it's not you. It's just that this has been a contentious debate over the past few years with many a thread going back and forth on it. There's a handy little search function in the upper right of your screen that'll help you track some of them down.

As another note, Jackal's Justice is correct... I don't know of anyone in the books who is blameless, or whose faults cannot be excused or justified. As for Catelyn, she did make some significant mistakes (kidnapping Tyrion, for instance). On the other hand, she did good things as well, such as

telling Robb not to send Theon to Pyke and bringing the Blackfish to Robb

. There's no "right" answer... just personal interpretation.

[RicK]

The name Theodan has always struck me as northernish, myself, but he could be Dornish, yeah. As to Mallor, some Dornish adventurer or sellsword knight, I'd guess.

Bringing this up again. Just doing my 12th or 13th re-read of the whole series and find it very strange that after the battle in the Wispering Wood Theon is listing to Catelyn some of the prisoners they captured - Lord Westerling, Lord Banefort, Ser Garth Greenfield, Lord Estren, Ser Tytos Brax, MALLOR THE DORNISHMAN and 3 Lanisters.

Im just a sucker for wanting every little detail about minor charactors (The clansmen from the mountains of moon, backgrounds of members of the NW etc) but it did make me stop and think about this Mallor dude, for Theon (of the north) to know his name and mention him as a noted captive when there is probably a few hundred sell swords and hedge knights among the dead/captive.

Makes me think there might be more to him than we know - yet.

OR I could just be looking into minor characters too much again.

Rick

[schrecklich]

Has anyone ever tried to speculate about Lem Lemoncloak's origins? I know he reveals that his wife and daughter have been killed at the end of A Feast for Crows. He seems to have enough prominence that he might have a further role to play in the story so I was curious if any more could be winkled out about him. One possibility I had considered was that he might be deserter from the Gold Cloaks (because of his yellow cloak). Are there any other known groups/houses in Westeros that wear yellow cloaks? I lean against Lem actually being a former Gold Cloak because I'd think he and his family would have been living in King's Landing while he was serving with the Gold Cloaks. In that case it would be unlikely his family would be murdered by marauders from the Riverlands/Lannisters (which is what I assume led Lem to seek vengeance in Beric's brotherhood).

[Guest Друг-&#1]

I doubt Lem is highborn, but I have wondered if he was a former goldcloak. Against it, it's been noted that the Kingslanders have a very distinct accent. Maybe he scavenged the cloak off a goldcloak somewhere or other, or from a dead nobleman. The color yellow sounds expensive for a lowly guy like him, I'd think most peasants would wear drab or undyed colours; browns and duns and such. Yellow is bright.

[Dreadwolf]

I haven't seen the following point mentioned in the forums but it caught my attention when I first read it.

At the end of AFfC when Jaime meets the Westerlings there is this about Robb's widow:

"Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for."

This conflicts with Catelyn's observation when meeting Jeyne in ASoS:

"She was pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She should have no trouble bearing children, at least."

and again...

"The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important."

The key point is the girls hips, noticed as narrow by Jaime but as good for bearing children (meaning wide) by Catelyn.

So, is this a case of point of view, an inadvertent difference written by GRRM, or is this a subtle clue that the girl Jaime meets is a substitute?

Wellcome.

It was a joke right? It can almost be a rival for <Syrio Forel is alive!> discussion. (I mean if your question was not just for fun there are many threads about that. One of them being <How JW saved the house Stark> or something.)

[TurgonDayne]

Who was Stannis' (and presumably Robert and Renly's) grandfather and why is he unfaithful (per ASoS)?

[Ran]

Lord Estermont is his maternal grandfather. After he's captured at the Blackwater, he bends the knee to Joffrey, which is why Stannis calls him unfaithful.

[Shrimp]

I'm on my 2nd reading of the series, and I'm somewhere in the first half of AFFC.

Anyway, here's my small question: How does Arya end up at the House of Black and White? I know all about the coin and whatnot, I just don't remember it being clear how she ended up at that particular building. When she is first seeing Braavos from the boat, she sees buildings and temples for all the various religions. She definitely doesn't know what to expect when she goes up the stairs and to the doors. How did she choose it. Did the dude who dropped her off take her there specifically?

[Ran]

Yorko took her there directly, moving through what's basically the temple district, and past the Warren to the windowless temple of the Many Faced God. He told her that's where she was supposed to be.

[Illyria]

Hi everyone, first post here. :) I've read these boards off and on for nearly a decade now, but this the first time I've been moved to post and I feel like a terrible pedant, yet the question burns me so much I have to ask it. (I apologize if someone's asked this before but I couldn't find it under search.)

In A Game of Thrones, I'm sure we're all familiar with the scene where Khal Drogo executes Viserys by pouring molten gold onto the hapless Viserys. However, the other evening, in a fit of Mythbusters-type questioning I started to wonder if a cook fire, even a hearth fire was hot enough to melt gold.

It doesn't seem like it. Assuming that Khal Drogo is wearing some sort of alloyed gold and not pure gold we can assume the melting point is lower than the usual 1950F/1065C, more around 1580F/860C. However, a hearth fire really only gets up to about 1300F / 704C - assuming that Khal Drogo stuck the pot into the coals. It's possible to get a higher temperature, but only by using bellows or something similar, but Martin makes no mention of that.

So here's my question: Does anyone know if Martin was aware of this when he wrote that passage or do you all think it's a gaffe?

[schpat]

Hi everyone, first post here. :) I've read these boards off and on for nearly a decade now, but this the first time I've been moved to post and I feel like a terrible pedant, yet the question burns me so much I have to ask it. (I apologize if someone's asked this before but I couldn't find it under search.)

In A Game of Thrones, I'm sure we're all familiar with the scene where Khal Drogo executes Viserys by pouring molten gold onto the hapless Viserys. However, the other evening, in a fit of Mythbusters-type questioning I started to wonder if a cook fire, even a hearth fire was hot enough to melt gold.

It doesn't seem like it. Assuming that Khal Drogo is wearing some sort of alloyed gold and not pure gold we can assume the melting point is lower than the usual 1950F/1065C, more around 1580F/860C. However, a hearth fire really only gets up to about 1300F / 704C - assuming that Khal Drogo stuck the pot into the coals. It's possible to get a higher temperature, but only by using bellows or something similar, but Martin makes no mention of that.

So here's my question: Does anyone know if Martin was aware of this when he wrote that passage or do you all think it's a gaffe?

Maybe, Maybe not.

As I recall it wasn't just a hearth fire, but a firepit (much bigger). Now I'm no thermodynamics student but surely a huge fire is hotter than a small one.

The other thing is that I don't think it really matters how hot the fire was, what is important is that Viserys gets what's comming to him and Danny finally realises that she is stronger than her brother, and this frees her of him.

I really wouldn't put too much thought into this because, after all, it is a fantasy series.

Plus: 100th post! WooHoo!

[Ran]

Welcome Illyria!

I suspect GRRM wasn't fully appreciative of the amount of heat needed to melt gold. A little (unaware) creative fudging for dramatic effect. :)

[Datepalm]

Welcome Illyria!

I suspect GRRM wasn't fully appreciative of the amount of heat needed to melt gold. A little (unaware) creative fudging for dramatic effect. :)

What a simultaneous lack of faith and dearth of creative thinking!

It was fake magic gold - actually a magic turn-me-into-a-dragon elixir from Asshai procured by Drogo to try making a dragon himself (Which is why he marries Dany) and of course he needs a convenient tragaryen and/or king for it, and there you go.

It actually worked, and Viserys!Dragon is hiding out in the basement of Illyrion mansion, growing in strength and waiting to take revenge on Dany in the Dance of Dragons.

but on re read now the similarities of Viserys death with Aerons in summerhall did strike me somewhat.

[schpat]

What a simultaneous lack of faith and dearth of creative thinking!

It was fake magic gold - actually a magic turn-me-into-a-dragon elixir from Asshai procured by Drogo to try making a dragon himself (Which is why he marries Dany) and of course he needs a convenient tragaryen and/or king for it, and there you go.

It actually worked, and Viserys!Dragon is hiding out in the basement of Illyrion mansion, growing in strength and waiting to take revenge on Dany in the Dance of Dragons.

but on re read now the similarities of Viserys death with Aerons in summerhall did strike me somewhat.

So you're actually saying that Viserys is actually the secret hidden Targ Hier and that at the end of the series he'll marry Jon? Wow, that's brilliant! Now that I think of it, it all makes perfect sense.

[Datepalm]

So you're actually saying that Viserys is actually the secret hidden Targ Hier and that at the end of the series he'll marry Jon? Wow, that's brilliant! Now that I think of it, it all makes perfect sense.

I know! See the thematic subversion there? The hidden heir...was the claimant to the throne all along. Again, GRRM turning those worn fantasy cliches on their head.

[chiffchaff]

Anyone think it likely that Stannis will sacrifice himself and his own royal blood in order to raise dragons/combat the Others? I get the sense that is a possible course of redemption for him.

[SalokinX]

Sorry if this was already asked, but I don't want to read some of the questions and end up spoiling some of the surprises of the book since I am still reading A Clash of Kings.

Anyway, ever since I read A Game of Thrones I read the part where Arya finds a secret chamber (or something like that) with two men talking about killing her father (who was the Hand by then) and, although I thought it was Varys and Little Finger (Petyr Baelish), I can't be quite sure.

So, who were the men conspiring to kill Eddard Stark? I'm pretty sure I am supposed to know by now, but, like I said before, I'm not sure.