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A Thread for Small Questions II


Werthead

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In A Game of Thrones, I'm sure we're all familiar with the scene where Khal Drogo executes Viserys by pouring molten gold onto the hapless Viserys. However, ...

... do you all think it's a gaffe?

Welcome Illyria!

But I think that being the first person in 14 years to point out this fatal flaw in AGoT, you really should change your board name to something that commemorates this feat. How about "Gold Wouldn't Have Melted"? ;)

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Sorry if this was already asked, but I don't want to read some of the questions and end up spoiling some of the surprises of the book since I am still reading A Clash of Kings.

Anyway, ever since I read A Game of Thrones I read the part where Arya finds a secret chamber (or something like that) with two men talking about killing her father (who was the Hand by then) and, although I thought it was Varys and Little Finger (Petyr Baelish), I can't be quite sure.

So, who were the men conspiring to kill Eddard Stark? I'm pretty sure I am supposed to know by now, but, like I said before, I'm not sure.

It was Varys and Illyrio Mopatis. They weren't planning to kill Eddard and in fact Varys was counting on Eddard to keep the peace long enough for their plan (for Westeros to descend into civil war just before Viserys' and Khal Drogo's invasion, making it easier for them to win) to work. They did, however, realise that Cersei and other factions were likely going to kill Eddard if he kept butting into old secrets and conspiracies.

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It was Varys and Illyrio Mopatis. They weren't planning to kill Eddard and in fact Varys was counting on Eddard to keep the peace long enough for their plan (for Westeros to descend into civil war just before Viserys' and Khal Drogo's invasion, making it easier for them to win) to work. They did, however, realise that Cersei and other factions were likely going to kill Eddard if he kept butting into old secrets and conspiracies.

Was that revealed before by 3/4 of A Clash of Kings?

I knew nothing of Varys' plan to help Viserys steal - or rather, take back - the throne.

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Sorry if this was already asked, but I don't want to read some of the questions and end up spoiling some of the surprises of the book since I am still reading A Clash of Kings.

Anyway, ever since I read A Game of Thrones I read the part where Arya finds a secret chamber (or something like that) with two men talking about killing her father (who was the Hand by then) and, although I thought it was Varys and Little Finger (Petyr Baelish), I can't be quite sure.

So, who were the men conspiring to kill Eddard Stark? I'm pretty sure I am supposed to know by now, but, like I said before, I'm not sure.

Hey man, you got 50%

The men were Varys and Illyrio Mopatis.

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Was that revealed before by 3/4 of A Clash of Kings?

I knew nothing of Varys' plan to help Viserys steal - or rather, take back - the throne.

Actually, it was revealed entirely within A Game of Thrones. Like many of Martin's plot twists it was done so quite subtly. The main connection you need to make is to realize that the man Varys is talking to is Illyrio. After that, you just need to combine their conversation there with Illyrio's plotting at the beginning of the book (as revealed in part by Viserys' constant outbursts and rants). Illyrio promised Viserys that Khal Drogo would help him regain the Iron Throne. During the conversation under the Red Keep, Varys tells Illyrio to hurry up Drogo's invasion because he can't keep juggling all the other powers of the realm forever, but Illyrio tells him to delay because Dany is pregnant and Drogo will not launch an invasion before his son is born.

I have another question myself. Since the first part of my post is answering a question from someone who doesn't want to be spoiled, I'll put it in spoiler form:

I just finished The Sworn Sword. Do any Osgreys (or Webbers for that matter) ever show in the other books of ASOIAF?

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Actually, it was revealed entirely within A Game of Thrones. Like many of Martin's plot twists it was done so quite subtly. The main connection you need to make is to realize that the man Varys is talking to is Illyrio. After that, you just need to combine their conversation there with Illyrio's plotting at the beginning of the book (as revealed in part by Viserys' constant outbursts and rants). Illyrio promised Viserys that Khal Drogo would help him regain the Iron Throne. During the conversation under the Red Keep, Varys tells Illyrio to hurry up Drogo's invasion because he can't keep juggling all the other powers of the realm forever, but Illyrio tells him to delay because Dany is pregnant and Drogo will not launch an invasion before his son is born.

I have another question myself. Since the first part of my post is answering a question from someone who doesn't want to be spoiled, I'll put it in spoiler form:

I totally missed that. I honestly had no idea Illyrio and Varys even knew each other. I hope I didn't miss out on any other "plot twist".

Anyway, thanks for explaining and also for adding the SPOILER thing :)

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Welcome Illyria!

But I think that being the first person in 14 years to point out this fatal flaw in AGoT, you really should change your board name to something that commemorates this feat. How about "Gold Wouldn't Have Melted"? ;)

gold was often alloyed with lead to make it cheaper and a gold/lead alloy could melt in a simple cookfire, no problem.

This execution method is actually mentioned in some literature, so it's not that uncommon.

but i don't think this is important. Another passage, where storytelling is more important, that science or total logic.

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Quick question. I just read an Arya chapter where she talks to some ghost dwarf lady. The lady mentions the king of Pyke is dead. Is this truly where it is first mentioned Theons dad has died or did I miss something earlier? Seems interesting some minor never seen again character brings up this massive dynamic change in Westeros

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Crassus was said to have been executed by having molten gold poured down his throat by the Parthians, and I've read that Edward I did the same to the guard who opened the gates of Berwick for him. However I'm suspicious of both claims.

OK, another question: What's the deal with the Seastone Chair; is it a permanent possession of House Greyjoy, or merely whoever happens to rule the Isles? That is, if Dunstan Drumm had won the Kingsmoot would movers come and ship it off to Old Wyk? Somehow I can't see it having ever been taken to Harrenhall and back (which maybe wouldn't have been an issue if the Hoares treated the Riverlands as a separate kingdom united under their crown), but did both they and the Greyirons before them sit the Seastone Chair?

And Damphair reminisced about a throne made from Nagga's fangs that was set up in the Grey King's hall; did he have both the Seastone Chair and the Throne of Fangs? In separate places? After all, the Seastone Chair is rumoured to predate the human occupation of the Isles.

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It seems to me that the imagery of the chair -- a kraken -- suggests it's been the Greyjoy throne from time immemorial, and that its association with the rule of the isle probably only comes in the three hundred years that they have been the overlords of the isles. So I don't think it's been shipping about here and there in the past.

Certainly, the chair now sounds like part of the royal accoutrements, given the appendix calling the men who spoke at the kingsmoot "claimants to the Seastone Chair". So I'd guess that now, it would likely be moved, or alternatively the king would take up permanent residence in Pyke and the Greyjoys would be ... what? I don't know. I can't see them giving up their ancient seat just because someone else is crowned, unless the habit in a kingsmoot is to kill off any bloodkin of the previous king to prevent them from getting notions of usurpation (but that's never mentioned, when it surely ought to have been, and it wouldn't make sense really).

So, moved seems likeliest.

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Hi there!

First of all, I little about me: a good friend lent me aGoT about 3 years ago, and there it stood forgoten in my shelf until a little more than 1 month ago, when I decided to return the book still unread. Luckly, he convinced me to try again and at least read the first chapters...

A couple of weeks after my "first chapters" and I can gladly say that not only I finished the 1st book, but the 2nd and the 3rd as well! I´m totally hooked into aSoIaF, can´t stop reading! I plan to start reading aFoC this weekend (as soon as it is delivered from the bookstore).

However, there are some things I still don´t quite understand about the story and the setting. If you could lend me some light, I would be very thankful!

a. In aSoS, there are many references to "Prince Doran Martell". I think I read something about a prince in another house in Westeros too. However, isn´t a prince supposed to be someone related to the king (a heir for instance)? Thus, Tommen would be the only Prince while Joff was still king (on the Lannisters´ point of view), isn´t it? Why Doran Martell was a prince too?

b. In aSoS, Daenerys decided against going back to Illyrio Mopatis before having an army, to make sure nothing would happen to her dragons. That was when she got the Unsullied. However, after her victory in Astapor, why Draenerys kept marching on, conquering the other slaver cities?

Uh, I had more questions but I can´t remember them now. Anyway, thanks for any help. Can´t wait to read the 4th book so I can start reading these forums more frequently.

J.

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a) The Dornish follow the tradition of the Rhoynar, apparently, in this. But sovereign monarchs who are princes existed in the past, and continue to exist today -- the sovereign head of Monaco, for example, is the Prince of Monaco.

B) I don't believe she had ships to carry her and the 10,000 across the sea. She needed to march. She was also motivated by a desire to put an end to the slave-trading of the Ghiscari cities.

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Not as much a question as a theory.

I was just perusing the Wikipedia thread for the Targaryens and came across the fact that Aemon the Dragonknight died defending his brother King Aegon the Unworthy from the brothers Toyne, who were trying to kill Aegon for killing their brother for sleeping with one of his mistresses.

I recall this seemed to be common knowledge in Westeros.

A part of me wondered if Aegon contributed to his brother, the Dragonknight's death, or actually caused it. He strikes me as the jealous type, so he'd have the motivation, especially if he suspected Aemon of sleeping with his wife, their sister Naerys.

Two things I could see happening:

1. Aemon defending the king against the brothers Toyne, in the confusion of the fight, the king slips a dagger into his back.

2. Aegon does nothing during the fight, but afterward allows Aemon to die from his wounds by preventing proper care.

Anyone think these theories likely? Think we'll ever find out?

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Is Samwell the "Hurley" of Westeros?

Seriously, the guy walked like a bajillion miles from the Hand to the Wall (there's no scale on the maps, but it must be at least 100 miles altogether) with hardly anything to eat, and then he lived the life of a bulimic on the seas, and all he gets at the end is a "I'm not as heavy as I was" when the Summer Island chick pokes him in what is presumably still his somewhat hefty tummy. At the very least some of that fat should have converted to muscle. Also, he is still winded walking up and down stairs even though he just walked like a quarter length of the Wall. Really? I understand that Martin needs Sam to fill the "fat man" trope, but after all that he's been through he shouldn't still be fat.

The only way around this, I figure, is that Coldhands also relayed to Sam the locations of secret hatches throughout Westeros (and Braavos too I guess) that were stocked full of Dharma ranch dressing.

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Hi there!

First of all, I little about me: a good friend lent me aGoT about 3 years ago, and there it stood forgoten in my shelf until a little more than 1 month ago, when I decided to return the book still unread. Luckly, he convinced me to try again and at least read the first chapters...

A couple of weeks after my "first chapters" and I can gladly say that not only I finished the 1st book, but the 2nd and the 3rd as well! I´m totally hooked into aSoIaF, can´t stop reading! I plan to start reading aFoC this weekend (as soon as it is delivered from the bookstore).

However, there are some things I still don´t quite understand about the story and the setting. If you could lend me some light, I would be very thankful!

a. In aSoS, there are many references to "Prince Doran Martell". I think I read something about a prince in another house in Westeros too. However, isn´t a prince supposed to be someone related to the king (a heir for instance)? Thus, Tommen would be the only Prince while Joff was still king (on the Lannisters´ point of view), isn´t it? Why Doran Martell was a prince too?

b. In aSoS, Daenerys decided against going back to Illyrio Mopatis before having an army, to make sure nothing would happen to her dragons. That was when she got the Unsullied. However, after her victory in Astapor, why Draenerys kept marching on, conquering the other slaver cities?

Uh, I had more questions but I can´t remember them now. Anyway, thanks for any help. Can´t wait to read the 4th book so I can start reading these forums more frequently.

J.

Dorne was the last kingdom to be under control of the Iron Throne, and it was done through marriage not conquest like the other kingdoms.So they enjoy special privileges, like being called "Prince".

I just got the opinion that she said forget Illyrio these are my ships now, I don't remember her saying she would actually go back as per the orginial plan.

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Is Samwell the "Hurley" of Westeros?

Seriously, the guy walked like a bajillion miles from the Hand to the Wall (there's no scale on the maps, but it must be at least 100 miles altogether) with hardly anything to eat, and then he lived the life of a bulimic on the seas, and all he gets at the end is a "I'm not as heavy as I was" when the Summer Island chick pokes him in what is presumably still his somewhat hefty tummy. At the very least some of that fat should have converted to muscle. Also, he is still winded walking up and down stairs even though he just walked like a quarter length of the Wall. Really? I understand that Martin needs Sam to fill the "fat man" trope, but after all that he's been through he shouldn't still be fat.

The only way around this, I figure, is that Coldhands also relayed to Sam the locations of secret hatches throughout Westeros (and Braavos too I guess) that were stocked full of Dharma ranch dressing.

Ha ha! Agreed. This is one of the few things that bothers me in the books.

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Ha ha! Agreed. This is one of the few things that bothers me in the books.

It's grossly exaggerated on several counts. Sam didn't walk the entire distance from the Fist to the Wall (though he did walk a good part of it). He started out on a horse, was carried by Small Paul for a while, and rode the last part on CH's elk. In between, he stayed at Craster's Keep for a wehile, where he would have had access to a share of the NW's remaining supplies of food, even if Craster was being stingy with his own food. Denys Mallister may have given him a horse on the trip back south of the Wall to Castle Black, where he would have been able to gorge himself silly to make up for lost time (Three Finger Hobb actually indicates his approval of Sam because of his appetite).

And on the Cinammon Wind he's teased about how much more he eats than Gilly. That said, no doubt he did lose some weight. But he was at least 280 lbs by Jon's estimate in aGoT, and he may have gained some afterward. Weight loss isn't as noticeable on someone who starts out grotesquely obese as it is on someone who's merely a modest amount overweight.

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