Vote on the Reputation System

[niamh]

much as I'm enjoying my (many years overdue) status as Prom Queen. The +/- thing may just be a little clicky box, but behind every negative click is a person you know,

Not necessarily.

To plagiarise a prominent poster who said it somewhere else:

It gives a right to lurkers that they shouldn't have.

How do you even know the person behind the click is even someone who ever contributed to the forum? This place is full of snipers, made even easier by the anonymous logging in.

I just really despise the idea of an anonymous thought police telling me whether I'm cool or not. And for whose benefit anyway?

Somebody said the negative ratings ousted a troll and an alt recently. Trolls and alts were ousted without and before that rating thing. If a post is truly offensive, there's the report button. If the post is not truly offensive, it's only intellectual wank to shoot it down with a red click without the courtesy of an intelligent retort. Pleasure yourself quick and fast at the expense of someone else who can't fight back.

This is the sort of stuff I'd expect of the G******d forum to control 16 year olds with a bad mouth. It's shocking to see it here, and shocking to see people who would actually back it.

Thankfully, seeing the amount of negs on Ran, I can tell it's not taken seriously by a lot of people.

[Quoth]

Voted to dump the system. Not because I care a whit about it myself. Nor because I fret some have hurt feelings due to it. It's the worry over a possible casual reliance upon it instead of actual comment. The Board has always been off the charts in terms of writing/posting. Be it intellectual discussion or snark, damn but you folks, by and large, write well. Thus, anything that might detract from it gets a nay from me.

[Lord Mord]

I really don't get how this could be looked on as bullying. How is it any more bullying than it would be in RL to flip somebody the bird or to offer them a high-five?

Edited January 5, 2010 by Lord Caspen

[Eponine]

I voted to get rid of the post rating system, but if it's going to stay, I would like for it to stay anonymous, and I would like for it to be for the individual post only and not contribute to an overall reputation.

As far as popularity is concerned, I don't think that it should be an issue for anyone to have a few posts down-rated. It's pretty thin-skinned to think that no one will ever disagree with you. I have to admit though, if I saw my overall reputation start dropping a few points every week until it was firmly negative (and not as a joke by some trolling friends), I'd become concerned that I was unliked or unwelcome here. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad conclusion to draw.

While I haven't ever given a negative that I wouldn't be willing to defend (almost always because I felt that the poster was being deliberately and disproportionately rude), making people explain why they've given a rating seems like it would make a much bigger deal out of the rating system than it needs to be... although I guess having three+ long threads about it might mean that everyone already thinks it's a big deal.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LC,

I really don't get how this could be looked on as bullying. How is it any more bullying than it would be in RL to flip somebody the bird or to offer them a high-five?

I call it bullying because there is no possibility of a response due to its anonymous nature. If someone flips you the bird you can respond in kind or ignore it, but, you have the ability to respond. Not here because you have no idea who flipped you the bird.

See my earlier post for more on why I compare anonymous neg voting to bullying.

[Endest]

Wow, anybody else here that went through this at malazanempire? It's such a contentious thing, I wish it was never invented. People wanting magical fixes and modifications without going out to find any such apps that might do what they want. Look, IPB comes with this system built in - I don't know if it's even possible to remove it? In any case, trust me, you will get over it eventually. Weirdly, we had almost the exact opposite problem because we switched from vbulletin which had a robust, if utterly insane rep system (some people still talk about the repwars with fondness), to IPB which had nothing at the time and people fucking howled. We had threads just like these, battle lines were drawn, polls were created, etc. Thankfully it's mostly settled down now and no problems to speak of *fingers crossed* Those who take it seriously on either side of the question should really just try to relax. At least with this system you can ignore rep entirely if you want to, what matter if you have neg rep in your profile? And it surely doesn't do any harm to see how many people liked or disliked a particular post...My feeling is that it's simple conservatism, dislike of change for it's own sake and it will in all likelihood dissipate rather quickly.

[slim da reaper]

Mine too. Mums are great!

I think we might have a translation gap here, "values" in particular has more meanings in hebrew, but anyway you're right, of course, which is why I chose to call economics the skeleton of the building - from the way ones economic system works everything else derives, but my point is you can choose your building, and choose what values it embodies. Universal values - equality, justice, etc, are not derived from economics, but their expression is controlled by it. So thats why you have to change the economics to get anything done (you got to have your theories, yo) - but it dosen't make those principles less valuable as being "derived from economics", since as you said yourself, the expression of all and any principles is derived from economics.

You were right as well of course I was critiquing the classical communist idea that economics is a noumenal base, for values lie at the heart of everything, economics is a value! The seperation of facts and values isn't actually possible, it's as if there's a noumenal world, Kant's terminology and the belief in an ultra objective world as a problem, economics as a noumenal, no no no hehe. We become more objective if we follow Nietszche's: "the more eyes on a problem the more objective you become" idea, critiquing our own and others ideas and values, and any relying on the noumenal well how can you argue against that?

[Jaime L]

I'm really surprised people hate the rating system so thoroughly. It's such a small part of the board experience. It's only as big as you want to make it. There's a lot of talk about the hidden menace of people giving negatives, but it ignores the flipside. I would venture that most of the ratings given are positive (I'm sure Ran has a total count somewhere of positives versus negatives) and in that regard it's actually a useful feature. It highlights well made posts without disrupting the flow of the thread or for those who lurk, allows the silent majority to weigh in without having to put themselves out there and risk being ripped to shreds as can happen whenever someone expresses an opinion.

One thing I can't stand about most forums/comment sections on the internet is there's little reflection on the post just made, instead just the rush to get your point across. People just waiting for their turn to speak. This board is far superior to anything I've experienced on the internet as far as people taking the time to give credit to a particularly well constructed/thoughtful/funny post, but even here so much of what's quietly great gets lost in the wash. The rating feature allows a simple, no frills way to pay credit to the posts you've read before and appreciate without having to make a post solely to say that. I mean, people have stated many times, they hate posts that simply say "I Agree", but to me, those are tremendously useful, selfless posts. And it helps provide a sense of where people stand, rather than just an endless litany of screaming heads desperate to make their point like a cable news show. This is a mature forum and the lionshare of people who post on it wouldn't and don't abuse the post rating feature. And for those select few who have so far, I'd imagine there's some diagnostic which can identify them as targeting another boarder or only giving negatives or whatever. But as it stands, I'm in favor of the post rating feature, if only because it leads me to believe that posts are actually being read.

[Guest Raidne]

Additionally, I think we can conclusively say that the post rating feature is NOT a popularity indicator as JL is sitting at a mere 5. Q.E.D.

In truth, for the most part, a reputation score tells the board (1) how often you post, (2) whether your posts are generally appreciated or not, and (3) whether someone has it out for you.

And I would really hope that (3) isn't a problem, unless it's a joke, as it is with Ran. To restate it, I guess that it's more like (3) whether there is an (arguably) significant minority of boarders that are continuously offended by your style/tone/lack of substance.

For the couple of dozen negative ratings I've received (that I'm aware of), they were almost all for posting in a rude, condescending, snide style that I damn well know is offensive to people. And, I admit, I've been posting less in that way since this rating system started. Not because I am a slave to the post rating system, but because the negative rating is a gentle reminder, IMO, to think about pulling it together and not being an asshat.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Raidne

[Frosty]

I voted to get rid of the post rating system, but if it's going to stay, I would like for it to stay anonymous, and I would like for it to be for the individual post only and not contribute to an overall reputation.

Well Eponine R. that I think is part of it – it is like a snowball effect as in look at my rep and Ran’s – mine is running away with 5 plus negs a day no matter what I post where – what thread I start or add too.

If someone is goading me it is not working and I actually hope I catch up with Ran for fun.

As far as popularity is concerned, I don't think that it should be an issue for anyone to have a few posts down-rated. It's pretty thin-skinned to think that no one will ever disagree with you. I have to admit though, if I saw my overall reputation start dropping a few points every week until it was firmly negative (and not as a joke by some trolling friends), I'd become concerned that I was unliked or unwelcome here.

Well not everyone has thick skin and I think the whole thing has gotten out of hand, lots of feelings are getting hurt and I think the confusion lies in when negged why? But but on the flip side why not wonder why someone plus’s them – I wonder why so many + for that post? Wtf?

Also the other issues is thread deletions and post deletions – many posts are deleted and no reason given other than Moderator perogative or choice. Well yeah this is not a democracy but can’t we have diverse views and drunken posts anymore?

I am just saying........

[Guest Raidne]

Okay, Frosty, I'll answer your question. It's like this. Imagine if Os were still regularly posting. Can you imagine what his reputation score would be? Although, many of us think Os is the best thing since sliced bread, his post were, ahem, difficult to read, grammar non-existent, and he perpetually played devil's advocate to a degree since unseen. What I'm saying is, there would be a reason for his negative rating. Having said that, his negative rating would not reflect overall popularity with the Board - it would reflect the fact that a significant minority of people just really couldn't stand his posting style. But, I bet, if you took an actual poll asking whether people liked Os's posts or hated them, and to what degree, the positives would come out way, way ahead.

Same with you pal. Read your sig. :)

[IheartTesla]

I voted to get rid of the reputation system if only to STOP READING THREADS AND POSTS ABOUT IT.

You might say I could just skip the threads, but I usually at least skim-read almost every front page thread. Its some kind of OCD, I freely admit it.

[Datepalm]

You were right as well of course I was critiquing the classical communist idea that economics is a noumenal base, for values lie at the heart of everything, economics is a value! The seperation of facts and values isn't actually possible, it's as if there's a noumenal world, Kant's terminology and the belief in an ultra objective world as a problem, economics as a noumenal, no no no hehe. We become more objective if we follow Nietszche's: "the more eyes on a problem the more objective you become" idea, critiquing our own and others ideas and values, and any relying on the noumenal well how can you argue against that?

you...lost me completely. Kant is where I can't. Gimme something with numbers in it. :P

[Frosty]

Deleted......

Edited January 5, 2010 by Frosty V 4.0

[slim da reaper]

you...lost me completely. Kant is where I can't. Gimme something with numbers in it. :P

Hehe, I don't wanna bore you but here's Kant if you're interested :):

The noumenal is the idea that's there's an objective world free from our perceptions.

The phenomenal is the idea that the world is created by our minds, that there's categories like time, space etc which our minds shape the world with, relativity in other words.

The noumenal does not exist and is a persistant problem with the mind.

On numbers :P here's Eddington*, "We used to think that if we knew one, we knew two, because one and one are two. We are finding that we must learn a great deal more about 'and'.” Even mathematics works on values and categories our mind creates.

So economics isn't noumenal, it's a value, that science and art aren't actually that far different from each other as we think :)

I'm convinced but I don't think this post is the greatest convincer lol

I do like this Eddington quote: "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine." I love that one :)

*he organized two expeditions to observe a solar eclipse in 1919 to make the first empirical test of Einstein’s theory.

[Arbor Gold]

Frosty, can you please do something about the way you quote people in your posts? Italics, or something? It would make it a little easier to try to figure out what you are trying to say, and it is kind of rude to just copy and paste someone else's words into your post without giving any sort of credit or letting us know who the fuck you are addressing.

[Datepalm]

So economics isn't noumenal, it's a value, that science and art aren't actually that far different from each other as we think :)

I'm convinced but I don't think this post is the greatest convincer lol

Um....you think that I think that economics is some objective fact of existence akin to gravity? I assure you, I don't. I think "economics" is the name we give to the way human societies divide their resources. I'm fine with working from the premise that its an objective fact that human societies do divide their resources. I'm still really not sure what you're trying to say.

[Frosty]

Frosty, can you please do something about the way you quote people in your posts? Italics, or something? It would make it a little easier to try to figure out what you are trying to say, and it is kind of rude to just copy and paste someone else's words into your post without giving any sort of credit or letting us know who the fuck you are addressing.

Raidne said:

Okay, Frosty, I'll answer your question. It's like this:

Raidne said:

Imagine if Os were still regularly posting. Can you imagine what his reputation score would be?

Frosty said:

I HAD Osraven on ban – just because I could read them totally and proved how sick my mind was.<br style=""> <br style="">

Raidne said:

Although, many of us think Os is the best thing since sliced bread, his post were, ahem, difficult to read, grammar non-existent, and he perpetually played devil's advocate to a degree since unseen.

Frosty said:

Okay so you are saying I post like Osraven? I mean c'mon Raidne that is a stretch even for you.

Raidne said:

What I'm saying is, there would be a reason for his negative rating.

Having said that, his negative rating would not reflect overall popularity with the Board - it would reflect the fact that a significant minority of people just really couldn't stand his posting style.

But, I bet, if you took an actual poll asking whether people liked Os's posts or hated them, and to what degree, the positives would come out way, way ahead.<br style=""> <br style="">

Frosty said:

I do not concur. You can't have it both ways. You either like him or you don't and his posts. I mean it is like saying you hate milk – but enjoy the hell out of chocolate milk.

Raidne said:

Same with you pal. Read your sig. <br style=""> <br style="">

Frosty said:

Okay you answered the above question(s) in a nutshell. Okay put me in the box with Dirji, Osraven, White Queen and KSI. I don't care one hoot overall about the rating system.

It bothers me that it bothers friends of mine here – but for me – I have never been popular on msg boards nor do I care to be. I am me, myself and I. And all 3 of us are fine with us.

I mean I am going to live my life from now on in 2010 and this decade with no regrets or remorse. If folks like me or hate that is their issue – I will not change because of some new fangled politically correct verbage or concept or some idea of pussy-footing around an issue I feel passionate or strongly about.

And I will tell you the truth, nicely BUT FIRMLY, and many people do not like that – they hate the truth and would rather be danced with and be pc'ish and all.

That is just not my cup of tea. Okay my .02 cents.

F.

ps Hope that helps Arbor Gold

[Guest Raidne]

Frosty, the point was that most people can like your posts, even really, really like your posts, but if a significant few don't, there you are - negative rating.

So fuck those people, stop worrying about it, and enjoy your controversial status. :)

Apologies for not putting it more succinctly in the first place. I, for one, am a Frosty fan, FTR.

[Lord of Oop North]

I voted to get rid of the reputation system if only to STOP READING THREADS AND POSTS ABOUT IT.

I think we are nearing 800 posts on this topic ...