World of Warcraft

[BlueRose]

When we got Festergut down, we had 2 min left on the timer, on 10 man. We started with the bear tank DPSing in cat until I got 8 stacks of the debuff. Our DPS was excellent, it just took us a while to get the strat down. Looks nuts on 25 man though, I hope to find out tonight if we get some real attempts in.

[Kalbear]

One (Aydin, who does many of our videos) does spriest/holy as needed. Another is one of our officers. Our spriests kind of pwn face, and they're really great to have on Anub since it's basically another 10 seconds without kiting if one of them gets picked. I was unspoiled for so long on having shitty spriests that finding a bunch that are all not actually fail is pretty amazing.

[Weak With The Dawn]

From the rogue who refused to switch to bone spikes because it lowered his DPS

To be fair, I bitch about this too :P, but that's because we got Boned while only having ranged hit the spikes, so I know they can handle it, but if we had the hunter as ranged, I'm sure I'd be running to those spikes to heh. Good Luck finding better raiders, sometimes it just takes the whole raid getting together and telling the RL "NO!".

It's good to see you guys both have 2 mut rogues as top damage each. It means I should enjoy the fight tonight :-). It's crazy to see how much damage they're doing, I thought my 3 million on Saurfang 10 was impressive, the damage on Festergut blows that out of the water.

WTB 25 man raids.

Edit: I was looking at over all. That explains why my jaw dropped at the 8 million damage done. You guys still seem to have plenty of quality player. Every time we try to run a 25 we only get about 3-4 players doing damage anywhere near what they should.

How were your Rotface runs? That's the fight I think I'm more worried about.

[Kalbear]

For Marrowgar we got stupid. We decided to just have everyone clump up in melee range and eat flames. The hunters bitch and moan, but this made things so much simpler it was worth it to hear QQ. The first time we did it we got the achievement without a problem.

And yeah, mut is crazy right now. One of our two rogues came out of retirement; his main was something completely different, but they asked him to be a rogue instead because of this. He's been raiding for all of three weeks and is already #2 DPS, despite needing almost everything from ToGC and anywhere else.

Just crazy.

[PhelanArcetus]

Yeah, Mut is huge now.

And I just spent a while trying to figure out with my girlfriend why her Mutilate damage isn't up as high as we keep seeing. We're not entirely sure; there are definitely significant buffs she's missing (and basically isn't going to be getting), but I'm having trouble modeling how much impact those have.

Why? First off, I tried the mutilate spreadsheet from Elitist Jerks forums. Well, we can't model her on that without a lot of work because she has multiple gear pieces which are just too low level for the sheet to include (ToC10N items, that is). I just went and unhid the gear sheet to glance... I'd have to add new rows, redefine ranges, and so on. It's possible, but a hassle. Maybe if I get bored enough at work tomorrow.

Then I tried Rawr, and saw multiple things on the settings which made me think it doesn't handle Mutilate very well.

She's got an average gear level of 239, both daggers are 245, latency that seems reasonable, her description of her rotation seems about right to my brief survey... so we just don't know. She wants to know why she's not quite reaching 6k dps on Saurfang when she knows rogues can break 9k on the fight. And I can't find anything approaching a clear answer.

[Inigima]

Can you link her armory?

[Weak With The Dawn]

Yeah, Mut is huge now.

And I just spent a while trying to figure out with my girlfriend why her Mutilate damage isn't up as high as we keep seeing. We're not entirely sure; there are definitely significant buffs she's missing (and basically isn't going to be getting), but I'm having trouble modeling how much impact those have.

Why? First off, I tried the mutilate spreadsheet from Elitist Jerks forums. Well, we can't model her on that without a lot of work because she has multiple gear pieces which are just too low level for the sheet to include (ToC10N items, that is). I just went and unhid the gear sheet to glance... I'd have to add new rows, redefine ranges, and so on. It's possible, but a hassle. Maybe if I get bored enough at work tomorrow.

Then I tried Rawr, and saw multiple things on the settings which made me think it doesn't handle Mutilate very well.

She's got an average gear level of 239, both daggers are 245, latency that seems reasonable, her description of her rotation seems about right to my brief survey... so we just don't know. She wants to know why she's not quite reaching 6k dps on Saurfang when she knows rogues can break 9k on the fight. And I can't find anything approaching a clear answer.

For the spread sheet, just copy an old item and insert it between two pre-existing items, then change the stats that way,it'll keep the equations. I'm wearing 10 ToC as well and I use it quite well. Just make sure its the most recent.

Rotation is ruptureless these days so unless there's no other bleed in the raid she can ignore that, instant on main hand, Deadly on off, never use a dagger slower then 1.8. My spec is 51/18/2 one of the better cookie cutters, though the points taken from Relentless strikes are disputed from time to time, you can check my armory in my sig to see what mine looks like.

Rotation is gernally Mutilate-> Slice and Dice -> Mutilate (up to 4-5 combo points) Envenom. Rinse and repeat while trying to maximize Envenom buff uptime.

I generally pull 8-10k on Saurfang and my gear isn't optimal, but obviously I don't know the differences between her gear and mine.

[PhelanArcetus]

For the spread sheet, just copy an old item and insert it between two pre-existing items, then change the stats that way,it'll keep the equations. I'm wearing 10 ToC as well and I use it quite well. Just make sure its the most recent.

Rotation is ruptureless these days so unless there's no other bleed in the raid she can ignore that, instant on main hand, Deadly on off, never use a dagger slower then 1.8. My spec is 51/18/2 one of the better cookie cutters, though the points taken from Relentless strikes are disputed from time to time, you can check my armory in my sig to see what mine looks like.

Rotation is gernally Mutilate-> Slice and Dice -> Mutilate (up to 4-5 combo points) Envenom. Rinse and repeat while trying to maximize Envenom buff uptime.

I generally pull 8-10k on Saurfang and my gear isn't optimal, but obviously I don't know the differences between her gear and mine.

Sounds just like what she says she does, except that she uses garrote to open and feed Hunger for Blood, then goes into the rest.

Her armory is http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Argent+Dawn&n=Armesan

We're working right now on fixing the bracers, as she didn't seem to realize she could just ask me for help with the Bracers of Swift Death materials; she should have those in a day or two.

[Weak With The Dawn]

Sounds just like what she says she does, except that she uses garrote to open and feed Hunger for Blood, then goes into the rest.

Her armory is http://www.wowarmory...+Dawn&n=Armesan

We're working right now on fixing the bracers, as she didn't seem to realize she could just ask me for help with the Bracers of Swift Death materials; she should have those in a day or two.

She's got a ton of hit! Nothing to be done about that though. She can shoot for 6 more expertise rating, that'll bump the dps a little bit.

My suggestion is to replace a lot of those pieces with heavy Arpen for items withmore haste. Arpen is worthless for mut and haste is amazing. And some of those stam gems would be more optimal as 40 AP even if she's gonna lose the slot bonus.

Other then that it may just be a need to tighten the rotation. She should be getting an envenom for every 1.5 mutilates (optimally) I get around 1.7.

The triumph trinket may also be a boost, but I would check the spreadsheet if/when you get around to it. Trinkets are tricky though.

[Poobah]

OMG!!! there is an ooze on me! What do I do!!?!?! *Run all over the place*

Seemed to be how our Rotface attempts went.

Ours too.

We can't do Festergut though. Not on 25 man anyways. Our DPS just isn't going to be high enough.

[PhelanArcetus]

Yeah we just called our ICC. Two of our healers were not usual healers though... it made a big mess. Basically, while there was definitely some "dur what do I do about the ooze?", it was mostly just that the two regulars who don't regularly heal caused failing. Not sure how much of it was lesser gear and how much of it was not being as skilled.

As far as the Mut rogue, right after I posted her armory I started looking. I've mailed her the shadow for the bracers and will buy an orb or two (found a few in the guild bank) too. We're going to get expertise back to cap, and I was looking at some rogues who were suggested for spec comparison, and saw the haste difference, so we'll look at what we can do to improve haste. In the short term, we don't have much control, we need drops to happen, but it also sounds like she's Envenoming every 2.0 Mutilates, so if using Envenom a little more will help, I'll suggest that too.

[Inigima]

Moose has already given you most of the advice I'd have given you. And yeesh, that hit is insane. (Not bad, just insane. More hit is always nice. But as long as you're above 315 -- the poison hit cap -- you can safely drop some of it if a more preferred stat comes up instead.)

Thhose gems, yeah. Your meta needs one blue gem, and that's all you should use, and it should be a Nightmare Tear (+10 all stats), in whichever one has the best socket bonus. Generally speaing, don't waste your time with any more blue gems than that -- you can get better results by not gimping yourself with crappy gems.

EDIT: The Frost trinket (Herkuml War Token) is insane, btw. Highly recommended.

[The Winged Shadow]

To add to Moose and Ini, make sure she has some sort of addon, or keeps a close watch on the envenom buff timer. Sometimes you have to pool 80+ energy to make sure you don't clip envenom buff. Specially at the start of the fight, when you have the overkill buff, envenom buff can overlap pretty easily unless you watch it carefully and pool energy as long as possible (don't energy cap though lol). Also, make sure she vanishes whenever it's up, to get the overkill buff.

It sounds like she is doing 5cp Envenoms all the time (if she is getting 1 envenom per 2 muti). Get her to envenom on 4cp whenever possible. It should increase the envenom buff up time significantly.

Other than that, just change the gems and she should be fine. Does she have another rogue on the raid to trade tricks with?

Edit: Currently i got 604 hit rating >_<. I could probably white hit cap if i gem it!!

[RaceBannon42]

I was rocking 615 hit until I dropped Blood of the Old God for Herekumi War Token.

[PhelanArcetus]

She normally has another rogue; I'm not sure if they tricks each other or both tricks me or what. I'm sure that after the first tricks or two they can get away with tricksing each other.

We're going to start fixing the gems primarily tonight; she was working til midnight last night, so there wasn't much opportunity to do more than just talk, and I was meaning to ask about how the 1.5 Envenoms per Mutilate worked; now I think I understand; you want to Envenom as close as possible to the Envenom buff dropping, rather than based on combo points. Is that right? My attempts to read up on Elitist Jerks tend to just say "4+Envenom", and owing to my BC-era rogue experience, I understood that to mean "get 4 or 5 combo points and hit Envenom, repeat", so I didn't do any further searching.

Looking at the armory, she found a crafter for the bracers after I'd gone to bed last night, so we'll get a gem into those (probably a straight Expertise gem to help get her capped on that) and replace one of the purples, maybe both. The Herkumi War trinket is next on her purchase list, though it's at least a week away. And the rare gem in the chest we'll take care of tonight as well. So hopefully the gear improvements will make a nice chunk, and we can get her rotation adjusted to maximize Envenom buff uptime.

She doesn't use many mods, but I do, so I can help her with a couple of options to keep a good eye on that; assuming the new buff system in 3.3 doesn't make it easy enough, Satrina Buff Frames and a little configuring, or some rogue-dedicated add-on should do it.

It was a lousy raiding night last night; we had one regular healer and two who were doing it on alts/offspecs (ret pally gone holy, prot pally on his priest). And, though we'd done ok with it the night before, our OT was also an alt (he's normally shaman heals or hunter). Basically, we tried to B-Team new content before A-Teaming it. It went pretty much as you'd expect, though we did at least get a feel for both Rotface and Festergut. Hopefully we'll have no problems with non-core healers and tanks next week so we can actually make serious attempts. (Or not spend as much time trying when unprepared.)

I did get my cloak and weapon upgraded (I'd been holding off on swapping my Quel'serrar for the Marrowgar 10 mace until I lost the hit on my cloak, to avoid the wasted item points), at least. Unfortunately, too many people were tired, had other things to do, or were frustrated to pull together a Jaraxxus group, so I just got my randoms done and two clears of ICC rep farming.

[Weak With The Dawn]

I understood that to mean "get 4 or 5 combo points and hit Envenom, repeat", so I didn't do any further searching.

That's the gist. If she's getting 2 envenoms per mutilate she may just need to keep a closer eye on the buff. The reason haste works so well is because now, with new poison mechanics, the more often your offhand applys DP (when at 5 stacks) the more often your IP will proc. If she's willing to spare the 2pc bonus then definitely get the trinket, it's great.

We ran into Fest and Rot last night, but didn't down either. 3 of our best DPS was healing because we had no healers on, which means myself and two warlocks had to try and pick up about 13k DPS. Obviously this did not happen and on Festurgut. Then on Rotface he was so twitchy we couldn't figure out when he spraying slime or if he was just casting his disease (which apparently, incorrectly uses the same timer as 25 man according to blizzard).

Also, rogue nerf :-(.

[Kalbear]

Didn't get Putricide 25 down. Only got one p3 attempt, and that was with an ooze up and was a very quick wipe. Sigh.

He's hard.

10 attempts kind of sucks hard on it. He's not so hard that you couldn't get him in one night, maybe two - but he's hard enough that you're having to figure out what's going on and by the time that's done - ten attempts.

Most of what I mentioned was true in terms of strategies. We found that one of the bigger keys is to have everyone move well together from one side to the other. Move when the slimes drop, have everyone near each other, and try and maximize DPS time on Putricide. The maximizing DPS time on him is hard though; there's a lot of chaos in running around and switching. Very hard.

[PhelanArcetus]

That's the gist. If she's getting 2 envenoms per mutilate she may just need to keep a closer eye on the buff. The reason haste works so well is because now, with new poison mechanics, the more often your offhand applys DP (when at 5 stacks) the more often your IP will proc. If she's willing to spare the 2pc bonus then definitely get the trinket, it's great.

Also, rogue nerf :-(.

The nerf looks, according to EJ claims to be about 7.5% overall for Mut and 2.5% overall for Combat. But those are early claims. Might justify swapping to the older Mut spec 51/13/7 was it, instead of 51/18/2?

The trinket is going to be a bigger immediate upgrade than getting 2pcT10, I think, so it'll come first, but either the belt or the 2pcT10 will be next I believe.

So the key with Envenom is basically to try and hit it immediately after the buff from the last one drops, rather than based on number of combo points stored up? You don't want to clip the existing Envenom buff, nor do you want to go without it if you can avoid it. Meaning that if you hit a 4-point Envenom, you've got a 5s buff, so you want to Envenom again in 5 seconds, and generate however many combo points you can afford to and still manage that.

[RaceBannon42]

Not that I was QQing or that I wanted to see them get nerfed, but Rogue damage was getting abit out of hand compared to the rest of dps. Looking at WoW meter online rankings rogues are anywhere from 1-2k dps above any other class on all the ICC fights except putricude

[The Winged Shadow]

So the key with Envenom is basically to try and hit it immediately after the buff from the last one drops, rather than based on number of combo points stored up? You don't want to clip the existing Envenom buff, nor do you want to go without it if you can avoid it. Meaning that if you hit a 4-point Envenom, you've got a 5s buff, so you want to Envenom again in 5 seconds, and generate however many combo points you can afford to and still manage that.

The number of combo points is still important. You'd always do a 4cp or 5cp Envenom doesn't matter what, unless slice and dice is falling of, in which case just envenom with w/e combo points you've got. It's just that sometimes your relentless stike procs, ruthlessness procs and muti crits in succesion, and you can end up with 4cp, lots of energy and 4-5 seconds of envenom buff still left, and if you are not used to pooling energy, it is very tempting to just blow the envenom and spam muti some more.

But since she is using the 51/18/2 Assassination spec, she won't have that problem much except perhaps at the start of the fight.

Basically, always do 4/5 cp envenom and make sure envenom buffs don't overlap and it should be fine.

If she doesn't regularly trick, she will be much better off with the trinket than 2pc bonus. I am hoarding my badges...not sure what i want atm lol