Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

einsteinstongue

Who is the Valonqar?

Recommended Posts

Hi. This is my first post. I JUST finished AFFC (and aside from the Iron-born / Brienne chapters I loved it as much as the rest of ASOIAF).

In Cersei's memories, Maggie the Frog tells her that she will be killed by the "valonqar" (her little brother). But doesnt she have two younger brothers? Of course, Tyrion is younger, but wasnt Jaime born minutes after her. If so, isnt it distinctly possible that she's killed by Jaime? Wouldnt that be a sweet plot twist?

My apologies if this has been discussed 1000X.

Thanks for letting me join your board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldnt be too out of nowhere. Cersei does keep getting hit where she least expects it ie Kevan.

I would actually much prefer that to seeing Tyrion kill her. It would be kind of a completion of the "redemption" of Jaime bc it was such a big part of his past

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely possible. Would you believe that younger brothers such as Bran, Victarion, Edmure, and Tommen have been suggested as well?

I kind of think if you try to get too clever about avoiding the obvious you're going to end up with something lame. I'm still mostly thinking it's Jaime or Tyrion, and I can see Jaime being the "twist"like option since it's easy to gloss over him being born a few minutes after her. There is set-up of course, them coming into the world together and having such an excessively close bond, it could be that they'll exit the world together too.

But I'm not sure Jaime killing Cersei would be redemption. Still murder, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe his refusal to return to KL to help is how she meets her demise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it will be Jaime but why would anyone think that it somehow redeems him to kill her? She is his sister. She is his lover. She is the mother of his children. Kinslayer curse on the former (deserved, IMHO) and good old fashioned domestic violence on the second.

I will celebrate when Cersei dies (hopefully at Sansa's hands or another of her victims) but for Jaime to kill her will leave me feeling kind of sick. There is nothing positive about that. Moreover, I don't understand why his fans would want to bring the kinslayer curse down on him.

Einsteintongue, welcome to the board!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He doesn't have to actually kill her to do the deed. Just leaving her to the sparrows while he sits in Riverrun would do the trick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He doesn't have to actually kill her to do the deed. Just leaving her to the sparrows while he sits in Riverrun would do the trick.

Coming back wouldn't do her much good either, not without a hand. She thought they could leave the world together as they'd come into it together.

If he comes back, dollars to doughnuts the sparrows will arrest him and charge him too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the prophecy had the valonqar putting his hands around her neck and strangling her. If we don't accept that he's going to personally, physically kill her, why should we accept that her little brother is going to do it at all?

I do see Jaime as more likely than Tyrion, because Tyrion's relationship with Cersei isn't all that passionate. If he came back with Dany and Cersei was in the way, he'd be happy to lock her up in a tower somewhere, or maybe just send her packing (it's not as if he thinks highly of her intelligence). Plus Tyrion is too obvious; that's what Cersei expects after all. And I'm hoping (don't tell me if you know--I don't want to hear about the spoiler chapters! ;) ) that he'll have enough remorse after his previous kinslaying to not go after other members of his immediate family.

I have the same response to Jaime doing it as Alexia did.... unless it happens at some crucial moment where Cersei is trying to kill someone else or do something horrific and he only just manages to stop her. Still somewhat squick-y, but much more palatable than the idea that he'd kill her in cold blood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would still require him physically strangling her himself, not waiting out her trial and execution in Riverrun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very Tyrionesque, no? And the last time the Hand's chain was used to murder a woman there was a great deal of passionate rage behind the act.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM seems pretty clear on the fact that he likes to do things with a twist. Accordingly, I think that "strangling" could be figurative instead of literal.

In terms of Jaime killing his sister as an act of redemption--I could see it happening if he had no other choice (e.g., Cersei backed him into an ethical corner where the only ethical thing to do was to kill her. Its happened before with Jaime--he slayed the King to protect Kings Landing from burning).

The more I think about it, the more I think GRRM should take this route. I think it would be great story-telling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

he had no other choice (e.g., Cersei backed him into an ethical corner where the only ethical thing to do was to kill her. Its happened before with Jaime--he slayed the King to protect Kings Landing from burning).

Example scenarios, please?

There is always a choice.

Edit: Also, it wasn't ethical to kill Aerys either. He ensured KL wouldn't burn when he killed Rossart. Tywin's men were already in the castle when he killed Aerys - they burst in just in time to get front row seats. Killing Aerys was entirely about veangance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Example scenarios, please?

There is always a choice.

Hah. Im not in the same story-telling league as GRRM, but I'll give it a shot. Perhaps Jaime found himself reliving the past. Cersei has already showed a fondness for fire (burning down the Hand's Tower). I can imagine a scenario where she would be just about to light a match to set Kings Landing ablaze with wildfire and only Jaime could stop her. Thats off the top of my head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hah. Im not in the same story-telling league as GRRM, but I'll give it a shot. Perhaps Jaime found himself reliving the past. Cersei has already showed a fondness for fire (burning down the Hand's Tower. I can imagine a scenario she would be just about to light a match to set Kings Landing ablaze with wildfire and only Jaime could stop her. Thats off the top of my head.

By strangling her? With one hand? If he can accomplish that, he can have her arrested and shipped to a padded cell under Casterly Rock.

Anyway, I envision a storyline wherein he confronts her about her affairs and strangles her at the end. Lancel and Kettleblack and Moon Boy too! Since GRRM is in a first-class storytelling and characterization league, I can't imagine him having Jaime kill Cersei without highlighting the ugliness of the fact that he is murdering his lover and the mother of his children. Whatever excuse Jaime thinks up to justify his actions.

There will be an odd symmetry to the Lannister clan. Tyrion - kinslayer. Jaime - kinslayer. No excuses for the Kingslayer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See my previous thoughts on the "strangling" being figurative instead of literal. I see the word strangling as a metaphor.

That is, I dont believe that Tyrion literally wanted to turn Cersei's happiness "to ashes", and I dont think that Jaime has to literally "strangle" Cersei to death to fulfill the prophecy. Its all about metaphor.

Of course this is all speculation. Im just playing around here.

Edited to say that I see your scenario as equally likely--It would be kind of fun to have a dark character turn to the light side, and then dive right back off the deep end by strangling his sister. It would be unexpected.

Also edited to say: And remember, even if the prophesy is literal--Jaime has a golden hand! He could strangle his golden sister with a golden hand. Just a thought

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe a play on "Goldenhand the Just" which he wants to be called? Maybe he winds up condemning her to death for her various crimes, and that's the metaphorical "strangling"?

Interesting idea. From a modern American perspective, I find sitting in judgment on your family members pretty squicky too, but in Westeros it happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the end of Storm of Swords we realize that Twin has a Shae on his bed (when Tyrion kills them both), and maybe she isn't the first prostitute hired by him. So Twin may have had a bastard son along the way (assuming he started sleeping with hookers since her wife died).

That Lannister bastard would have enough reasons to kill Cersei (never being recognized by his father for example) and he would be Cersei's younger brother, why not?

GRRM wanted something by showing us Shae in Twin's bed and I'm still confused about that, maybe his reputation was based on lies

and this could be a possibility.

About the "strangle" part I agree with einsteinstongue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think that prophecy is anything more then a tool to drive Cersei mad.

And i dont think Jaime will kill her unless she goes completely berserk and tries to murder their kids or burn a city and he finds himself in a moment where he simply doesnt have any other choice.

And thats highly unlikely. He would stop her, not kill her.

And Tyrion isnt likely to do it either.

Im generally annoyed that most readers got the idea that each prophecy must become true while the story so far shows that prophecies are just fallible human interpretations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...