Who is the Valonqar?

[Ser Silly Cat]

And i dont think Jaime will kill her unless she goes completely berserk

The chances of her doing that seem pretty high. Who knows, maybe she'd even attack Jaime if she saw him again. I just think it would be far more interesting if it were Jaime who finally killed her. It would really show how much change he's gone through as a character.

[Alexia]

It would really show how much change he's gone through as a character.

Nope, it would confirm that a leopard can't change his spots.

[Izria]

Nope, it would confirm that a leopard can't change his spots.

In the beginning of the story, he was ready to do anything for her, e.g. kill an innocent child - Bran. If he is able to hurt her in order to prevent her from continuing with her destruction of the kingdom or for some other reason, it'd mean that he has changed a lot as a character. At the same time, it would mean he hasn't changed for good.

In my opinion, if the prophecy turns out to be true, it'd be Cersei who would draw it upon herself. She's constantly thinking about it, this way somehow mentally preparing for it, if you know what I mean. If she had forgotten about it, it'd never happen, imo.

Also, I think that Tyrion is the obvious (for her) choice and she'd never expect it to be Jaime. When I read about the prophecy in one of the chapters, I immediately thought it would be Jaime, just because it would be a surprise, not to the reader, but to Cersei.

[The SmilingKnight]

The chances of her doing that seem pretty high. Who knows, maybe she'd even attack Jaime if she saw him again. I just think it would be far more interesting if it were Jaime who finally killed her. It would really show how much change he's gone through as a character.

No,

First - he would simply stop her. It would had to be a very rare situation where he actually really needs to kill her.

And then it wouldnt say anything about him. It would be just a necessity of the moment.

Second, if he did kill her for other reasons it would destroy all that he is trying to achieve right now.

In my opinion, if the prophecy turns out to be true, it'd be Cersei who would draw it upon herself. She's constantly thinking about it, this way somehow mentally preparing for it, if you know what I mean. If she had forgotten about it, it'd never happen, imo.

Im partial to that line of thinking too.

[Liadin]

Im generally annoyed that most readers got the idea that each prophecy must become true while the story so far shows that prophecies are just fallible human interpretations.

I would love it if none of the prophecies in this book came true. But I just don't see that happening. No prophecies have really been false so far if you consider that the crones' prophecy about Rhaego could have been their misinterpretation of the power of Dany/her dragons. Plus, a lot of Maggy the Frog's prophecy has come true so far--the number of children both Robert and Cersei had, the fact that she married a king, Joffrey's being crowned and dying. It seems to me that the story supports the idea that prophecies are true but people often interpret them incorrectly. So I would be surprised and pleased to see Cersei not murdered by anyone who could be described as a "little brother," but thus far am not convinced Martin is willing to break that far out of the mold.

Edit: Whoops, didn't see the discussion had a second page...

[Lady Blackfish]

What about the idea of the self fulfilling prophecy? Ala that antler in the direwolf's throat, that kind of thing certainly throws more twists into the mix, messes with the idea of fallibility in an interesting way.

[sn0mm1s]

Didn't Dany, in the House of the Undying, see dwarves eating/gnawing a blonde woman?

[Liadin]

Didn't Dany, in the House of the Undying, see dwarves eating/gnawing a blonde woman?

Widely considered a metaphor for the kings destroying Westeros.

How was the antler in the direwolf's throat self-fulfilling? I can't see how things would have turned out any different for Ned or his family had he not seen it.

[Lady Blackfish]

Koolkat, if you take the following path of cause and effect:

Antler --> stag symbolism --> Cat encourages Ned to go south --> Ned dies --> Stark family woes

[Alexia]

Koolkat, if you take the following path of cause and effect:

Antler --> stag symbolism --> Cat Maester Luwin encourages Ned to go south --> Ned dies hands head to Cersei on an engraved silver platter --> Stark family woes

Fixed that for you. ;)

[Lady Blackfish]

Hahah yeah, I mean I don't think cause and effect equals to blame, especially since there are so many causes to so many effects.

[nightwisp1956]

I think it is Jaime but I do not think he will kill Cersei in cold blood. It will be because she caused the death of their children, or something serious to that effect. And, Jaime will be so grieved over his actions that he may kill himself. I see at the end as he lays dying beside Cersei reaching out and holding her by the ankle. As they entered the world, so they will go out.......... I am sure GRRM has something dramatic, and very heartbreaking in mind in regards to this scene(if it occurs, of course).

[Izria]

I think it is Jaime but I do not think he will kill Cersei in cold blood. It will be because she caused the death of their children, or something serious to that effect. And, Jaime will be so grieved over his actions that he may kill himself. I see at the end as he lays dying beside Cersei reaching out and holding her by the ankle. As they entered the world, so they will go out.......... I am sure GRRM has something dramatic, and very heartbreaking in mind in regards to this scene(if it occurs, of course).

I really hope he won't kill himself, but you're right...if he kills her, then he'll probably leave this world as well. :(

[BloodRider]

Maybe, no likely, I am a complete fruitbat, but I think the Valonquar is one of the dragons (Drogon, FWIW), what with the fire and smoke and ashes and asphyxiation and stuff. I also like to think that Tyrion will be riding him at the time, but that is neither here nor there.

[Liadin]

Koolkat, if you take the following path of cause and effect:

Antler --> stag symbolism --> Cat (and Maester Luwin) encourage Ned to go south --> Ned dies --> Stark family woes

That seems like a bit of a stretch to me. If you like self-fulfilling prophecies I suppose it could count, since Cat did find the antler thing meaningful. But I think she would have reached the same conclusion (that Robert would become suspicious of Ned eventually if he stayed in the North and refused to help govern the kingdom) on her own, that the antler only reinforced her concern. And I don't see Maester Luwin caring or even knowing about the dead direwolf; he only mentions that the Hand is a powerful position that would allow Ned to seek justice on Jon Arryn's behalf. I suppose you could call the antler a contributing factor. It's not nearly as direct as Cersei's prophecy.

[The SmilingKnight]

Antler was Robert, he killed Ned by asking/ordering him to serve as a Hand.

[einsteinstongue]

I see at the end as he lays dying beside Cersei reaching out and holding her by the ankle. As they entered the world, so they will go out.......... I am sure GRRM has something dramatic, and very heartbreaking in mind in regards to this scene(if it occurs, of course).

I'm kind of schmaltzy, so I like this idea (a lot actually). But it seems a bit melodramatic for GRRM. What do you all think?

Maybe, no likely, I am a complete fruitbat, but I think the Valonquar is one of the dragons (Drogon, FWIW), what with the fire and smoke and ashes and asphyxiation and stuff. I also like to think that Tyrion will be riding him at the time, but that is neither here nor there.

This is one of the few situations where I think that Tyrion killing Cersei would be as interesting as Jaime doing the deed, instead.

[Liadin]

I'm kind of schmaltzy, so I like this idea (a lot actually). But it seems a bit melodramatic for GRRM. What do you all think?

Oh, I don't know--lots of scenes in these books could be termed "melodramatic." Google's definitions of the word are all over the map, but people typically use it to refer to any dramatic/emotional scene that makes them roll their eyes, which is pretty subjective. I suspect many people here have rolled their eyes at something in the books.

That said, I would definitely roll my eyes if a dying Jaime grabbed the ankle of a dead or dying Cersei.... I have an "ew" reaction to that, although I don't mind the idea of their dying at more or less the same time.

[BloodRider]

This is one of the few situations where I think that Tyrion killing Cersei would be as interesting as Jaime doing the deed, instead.

I also like to think that Tyrion does not use the dragob to hunt her down, just that it happens during the sack of a city that Cersei stubbornly refuses to leave, despite Tyrion's desperate warnings.

Not that I have thought about it much.....

[Gertrude]

Since before feast came out I've had a pet theory that Jaime would end up killing Cersei. I've always envisioned it as part of his redemption arc - killing that part of the old him that she represents. If this is what George has in mind, I have no doubt that the killing will be seen as both utterly necessary and heart-breakingly tragic.