Rape in fiction

[Alexia]

Has Lollys (?) even been mentioned in this thread? Is there anyone in the books who knows of her ordeal and doesn't laugh at her?

I don't think anyone thought it was funny. Sansa felt sorry for her and Sandor commented negatively on what happened to her.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Not entirely sure about this one either. There are undertones of blackmail, but.... "I saved you from the consequences of your own betrayal by claiming you were my lover, now sleep with me" is rather different from "Sleep with me or I'll turn you in to the authorities."

There's a strong element of coercion at work though: as far as Jon is concerned, he believes that if he does not have sex with Ygritte, then he'll be killed. Under modern law, that sort of coerced sex would definitely count as rape.

[MinDonner]

There's a strong element of coercion at work though: as far as Jon is concerned, he believes that if he does not have sex with Ygritte, then he'll be killed. Under modern law, that sort of coerced sex would definitely count as rape.

Oh, totally, and it's easy to see if you switch the genders round. Man saves girl but demands sex as a reward?

[kungtotte]

Considering the approximate ages involved, I'm pretty sure the Ygritte-Jon coupling would count as statutory rape too.

[Morrigan]

Depends on where you live. Isn't Jon 15 or 16 at that time? Perfectly legal in many places. Also, I'm not sure Jon was not consenting, though it's true he was somewhat threatened. He was hesitating, because of his vows, but that's different from non-consent. It's not like the Mat/Queen Tylin in Wheel of Time which is really clear-cut (and treated with such bad taste too).

As for Lollys, I recall Shae being a cunt about it (I had no special like or dislike of her up until that point, which was when I really started hating her), but no one else shows contempt that I recall. My memory could be fuzzy though.

[mormont]

There's a strong element of coercion at work though: as far as Jon is concerned, he believes that if he does not have sex with Ygritte, then he'll be killed. Under modern law, that sort of coerced sex would definitely count as rape.

That's not exactly how I read it. Jon knows that had Ygritte not lied about having sex with him, he would have been killed, yes. But I genuinely didn't read Ygritte's comments as intended to be an implied threat to blow the gaff and get Jon killed if he didn't go along with her wishes. I don't believe she really would have done that. It's just much more credible not to have to pretend: in fact, a pretence is pretty much guaranteed to get found out, and that will get Jon killed. In other words, to the extent that there is an element of coercion, it's created by Jon's circumstances and not Ygritte.

[Liadin]

That's not exactly how I read it. Jon knows that had Ygritte not lied about having sex with him, he would have been killed, yes. But I genuinely didn't read Ygritte's comments as intended to be an implied threat to blow the gaff and get Jon killed if he didn't go along with her wishes. I don't believe she really would have done that. It's just much more credible not to have to pretend: in fact, a pretence is pretty much guaranteed to get found out, and that will get Jon killed. In other words, to the extent that there is an element of coercion, it's created by Jon's circumstances and not Ygritte.

:agree:

Ygritte didn't threaten Jon. She came up with the "we're lovers" ruse, but Jon let her do it. Had he not wanted to take advantage of it, he could have simply refused Ygritte's help.

Also, in a situation where someone isn't physically forced, I think it's important to consider how they feel about the whole thing. Jon most definitely does not feel raped. He's just as into it as she is.

[mormont]

Also, in a situation where someone isn't physically forced, I think it's important to consider how they feel about the whole thing. Jon most definitely does not feel raped. He's just as into it as she is.

Well, not quite - he feels guilty about it, and Ygritte doesn't. But those feelings of guilt are clearly not an indication that he doesn't want to have sex with Ygritte or that he has been coerced.

[Morrigan]

Yeah, he feels guilty because of his vows and the silly Stark honour. Hell, if I recall, he feels guilty possibly because he enjoyed it so much. :P

[Galactus]

That said, i think there's definitely an implied threat in Ygritte's remarks. (and as mentioned, if the genders had been switched I think the skeeviness of the entire thing would have been readily apparent...) The implication is "you owe me (and I can turn you over any time I want to)".

[Tears of Lys]

Would Ygritte have turned Jon in if he hadn't had sex with her? I'm not sure about that. However, it would have appeared highly suspicious - hell, it would've been pretty obvious that he was still a Night's Watchman if he hadn't.

[Alexia]

The whole dynamic between Jon and Ygritte is definitely off and I think there's an element of coercion. But, it reminds me a bit of the Jaime/Cersei dynamic in which I indicated upthread that it was a weird dynamic but still consensual. There's no doubt in my mind that Jon wanted to have sex with Ygritte and enjoyed it, regardless of whatever angst he was feeling. He even took the initiative and performed oral sex on her! I don't think it meets the definition of rape; having sex that you don't really want (and I think he did want it) to solidify your cover amongst the enemy just can't be counted as rape IMO.

[Guest Raidne]

If I may be so bold as to inject some non-fantasy in the discussion, I've always found Dominique Francon's rape ("by engraved invitation" as Ayn Rand called it) to be a very dangerous thing to emulate.

Rand, you'll note, was only with men who were totally submissive to her in life - men she made an actual effort to emasculate, but in her fiction, her ideal is this hyperdominant rape fantasy? Please. What I really hold against her is that she took her own neurosis and projected onto all women and told god fucking knows how many men that this is what we all really want. It is, in my opinion, the most reprehensible rape scene ever written in fiction - it's hypocritical, dangerous, irresponsible, unrealistic, and, for any normal woman, detracts from who Dom was supposed to be as a character.

[The Marquis de Leech]

That's not exactly how I read it. Jon knows that had Ygritte not lied about having sex with him, he would have been killed, yes. But I genuinely didn't read Ygritte's comments as intended to be an implied threat to blow the gaff and get Jon killed if he didn't go along with her wishes. I don't believe she really would have done that. It's just much more credible not to have to pretend: in fact, a pretence is pretty much guaranteed to get found out, and that will get Jon killed. In other words, to the extent that there is an element of coercion, it's created by Jon's circumstances and not Ygritte.

Ygritte, however, quite clearly believes that Jon "owes" her one. Whereas previously she'd just been hitting on/ogling Jon, the night after she had made the claim to Mance, she went over to him with a clear expectation of sex. As others have pointed out, this would have appeared seriously dodgy had the genders been reversed.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Also, in a situation where someone isn't physically forced, I think it's important to consider how they feel about the whole thing. Jon most definitely does not feel raped. He's just as into it as she is.

Modern definition of rape doesn't just count physical force. It also includes threats and situational coercion.

(And, yes, Jon enjoys it. He himself wouldn't see it as rape, nor would anyone in Westeros. However, we're focussing on modern definitions here: the point is that in a modern view of things, Jon's consent was being coerced, which renders the consent void).

[mormont]

That said, i think there's definitely an implied threat in Ygritte's remarks. (and as mentioned, if the genders had been switched I think the skeeviness of the entire thing would have been readily apparent...) The implication is "you owe me (and I can turn you over any time I want to)".

"Definitely"? I don't see the implied threat at all, and neither do other readers. That suggests that 'definitely' is overstating, at the very least. I certainly don't see any suggestion at all that Ygritte actually ever considered turning Jon over, nor that she suggested or implied to him that she might. I see a sentence that can perhaps be read that way if you really want to read it that way, but on its own, that's pretty inconclusive.

Ygritte, however, quite clearly believes that Jon "owes" her one. Whereas previously she'd just been hitting on/ogling Jon, the night after she had made the claim to Mance, she went over to him with a clear expectation of sex. As others have pointed out, this would have appeared seriously dodgy had the genders been reversed.

I'm not at all sure it would. It would have appeared seriously dodgy had the situation been different, for example if Jon genuinely didn't want to have sex with Ygritte, or if she had created the situation by suggesting it to Mance as a test of Jon's vows. What happened was that a situation came up where Jon would have died but for Ygritte's quick thinking, and he needed to prove her claim true. Now this is certainly one of those 'not really much of a dilemma' choices that people complain about Jon being faced with, where the author sets up a situation in which Jon gets to do what he wants despite his vows and it isn't really even his fault. People have criticised it for that. But it's no more 'dodgy' than Gilly having sex with Sam (actually it's arguably even less so).

[Lord O' Bones]

Let's not confuse Jon's internal guilt versus his desires, with our modern legality.

Besides which, he could have faked the funk easily enough if he'd cared to enough. Ygritte was arguably in as much mortal peril were it discovered otherwise; it's not like she was going to tattle either way.

[needle]

I'm really surprised Erikson has not come up in this thread, for the rape scenes in Dust of Dreams, which were amongst the most horrific I have ever read. No, THE most horrific, by a long chalk.

I'll go away and learn how to spoiler tags so I can write more about it :P

[MinDonner]

I did nearly mention that earlier actually, but for some reason decided not to, possibly because I'm still slightly traumatised by it. :crying:

[Stubby]

I'm really surprised Erikson has not come up in this thread, for the rape scenes in Dust of Dreams, which were amongst the most horrific I have ever read. No, THE most horrific, by a long chalk.

I'll go away and learn how to spoiler tags so I can write more about it :P

I did nearly mention that earlier actually, but for some reason decided not to, possibly because I'm still slightly traumatised by it. :crying:

Absolutely horrific scenes, agreed.