Game 71.5

[Gertrude]

But I really don't feel as though her scumhunting efforts are genuine. It's the timing of her Lany vote and unvote. It's the way all her suspects have been easy targets, how she's voting for the players who are most likely to be lynched. It all seems disingenuous. Like...would innocent Gert admit to voting for Spidey partly based on OMGUS, and be so casual about it? Just compare it to her pages-long battle with Will in the Christmas game. I don't see any genuine anger, frustration, or emotion there. And the way she's justifying voting for LCOTNW with, "Well, mentat went that route, and no one had a problem with it."

My point about Mentat being ok with Kat and LC is to point out why my vote is not simply going after a low poster. He claimed that was his main point, my point is that just said a few safe things. To be honest, I haven't found anything that has really got my senses tingling yet, so no heat yet. When thinking about my battle with Will, please remember that I didn't engage until nearly the end of the day and some fairly controversial stuff had been happening. Also, it might be worth noting how extremely accurate you were in that game :P

[Pebble thats Stubby]

Perhaps I could have been more polite, but it's all about making a point, I guess. With mentat and Gert being polite and all, I was trying to get through. The thing is, I really see it as a bad argument that should never be used in a game of Mafia, and I'm quite sure that most players would agree, if the politeness allowed them. Sure, an FM may talk to the FM during the RP phase. But so could an innocent, and saying that doing so is an indicator of guilt is the same as saying someone is likely guilty for having a green avatar. I'm just trying to...help? No offense to Sir Thursday.

I understand you where just trying to make a point. However at most you are just gonna encourage Sir Thursday to not tell us what he's thinking. at least this way we can understand his thought processess even if we don't agree with it, which helps us evaluate him. Anyway don't want to take this argument too far, we all know I'm far to sensitive to potential unhappy players.

I'm getting generally good vibes on Malc, Lany and Mina (Mina's playstyle allways gives me good vibes though)

Piper well I can never really tell

Mentat, well its still has a minor point against him.

Spider doesn't seem to be playing as well as I'd expect from him (and is rubbing me up the wrong way) But I'm not sure his is the best lynch.

Meow, Kat (who IIRC is normally not very productive day one) LC and Sir Thurs I don't have enough to form any real idea

which leaved Gert and I still don't like Gerts posts. I guess my vote is sticking.

I got to go to work in a few mins, but I will be back 30 mins - hr before the the deadline

[Gertrude]

In the interest of self-preservation, Spidey

[Ser Spidey]

Spider doesn't seem to be playing as well as I'd expect from him.

To be honest, I don't like my play either. I guess it can be attributed to lack of enthusiasm I have about non-CF games.

[Piper of Chaos]

I'm off to bed now. My vote stays where it is. Should Kat return you have my ok to speedlynch her. Or LCOTNW. Or Pebs.

Mina is too cute to die.

ETA:

To be honest, I don't like my play either. I guess it can be attributed to lack of enthusiasm I have about non-CF games.

If you feel unmotivated, you probably should have a look at your signature . ;)

[Mina Martell]

Sir Thursday, at first I saw your point of view on Spidey...but sorry, this discussion is a complete waste of time.

Considering everything that's happened since Ser Spidey made that RP joke, is he still your top suspect? Who do you suspect other than Spidey?

To be honest, I think that Ser Spidey saying "be very afraid, killers" is a total null tell. It's not like it betrays...well, any information whatsoever about the killing faction. (If there's a reason to suspect Spidey, it's his terrible case on Piper.) And your point may have worked as something to get things out of the serious phase, but your lack of scumhunting is kind of weird. I don't think you've made a single serious post all game that discussed something other than whether addressing the killers is a scumtell.

Ser Spidey, I forget if you mentioned this already, but who do you suspect other than Gert?

I wasn't following the vote count. It's somewhat difficult in the middle of a night.

Ok, Gertrude. And now I am actually leaving. Good night.

...Damn it.

That kind of takes the wind out of my sails.

He could have just pretended to be sleeping. I had this grand Malc-Gert-Piper theory (even though their interactions didn't fit as partners), and I was going to follow that up with a list of scummy things Malc has said all game. Now I'm getting paranoid.

If Gert was evil she should try to get you lynched. My impression is that it's rather you who has been eagerly supporting suspicions that might lead to an alternative lynch.

Well, Gert is supporting a Spidey lynch. She just voted LCOTNW to pressure him to speak up. She left her options open to jump on either mob, depending on which one gained more support.

(I'll admit that I need to reread the last few pages to work out the timing between when people said bad things about players and when they voted them. Everyone and their mothers is accusing each other of being opportunistic. I should draw a flowchart.)

[Sir Thursday]

Anyway, moving away from the theory and back to the game at hand.

There only look like two possible lynch candidates at this point. My perceptions of Spidey and Gertrude are somewhat clouded by the argument I've been involved in, but I'll do my best to be rational about things.

So, we have Gert's vote/unvote from Lany. It was the meekness of the thing that stood out to me. If there's no-one agreeing with you, you can either stick to your guns or press somewhere else. Just backing off completely seems rather unproductive, in keeping with someone who perhaps doesn't really want the thread to take off. Having said that, she was also one of the first people to get down to business with serious intent.

Also, this post seemed a bit odd to me:

My early guess for partners ... Lany and Kat.

Also, I think we're probably looking at 3 FM. Just throwing that out since there is a lot of partners talk as if we're only looking at 2.

Never been a huge fan of early role spec, myself. And the partner guess seems odd to me as well (though that one I can rationalize as a cultural difference).

I'll just have another look at Spidey before I decide on anything.

EDIT: Crosspost with Mina

[LCOTNW]

I actually think Thursday has a point - it's not that good players don't make mistakes, it's that they recover well. True, we tend to play in a certain way, but saying we never do X is just wrong.

Well, good players do recover well, and know how to react in an innocentish manner. The paranoia drives everyone to see guilt on flimsy evidence on Day 1 partly because a CF is worth it, and the lynchtrains tell us things, and we have to get through a couple of days before we can start to have perspective on a person's behavior. There aren't any newbies here. We all know day 1 cases suck. Let's not bother with pretending they are anything other than a best guess.

Whether Sir Thursday is right or wrong about it being a scumtell is interesting to think about. I like that he has made the observation in an unspoiled context which makes it subject to verification when we get to spoilers. We don't have to test it by lynching someone based on it in this game, but I at least like the fresh take on trying to find scum. I'm sure he would admit that the are not foolproof, (as if anything in this game were foolproof), but it is certainly more interesting to me than gender slips.

[Sir Thursday]

Sir Thursday, at first I saw your point of view on Spidey...but sorry, this discussion is a complete waste of time.

Considering everything that's happened since Ser Spidey made that RP joke, is he still your top suspect? Who do you suspect other than Spidey?

To be honest, I think that Ser Spidey saying "be very afraid, killers" is a total null tell. It's not like it betrays...well, any information whatsoever about the killing faction. (If there's a reason to suspect Spidey, it's his terrible case on Piper.) And your point may have worked as something to get things out of the serious phase, but your lack of scumhunting is kind of weird. I don't think you've made a single serious post all game that discussed something other than whether addressing the killers is a scumtell.

Kept getting distracted...anyway, I'm moving myself away from that now.

[Chairman Meow]

Sorry, I haven't been able to access a computer for most of the day. I only have ten or so minutes to post now, and I only had time for a quick read. I'll place my vote on the highest poster in the interest of getting a lynch.

Gertrude

[House Targaryen]

It is day 1.

12 players remain: Chairman Meow, Gertrude, Kat, LCOTNW, Lany Cassandra, Mentat, Mina Martell, Pebble That Hides, Piper of Chaos, Ser Spidey, Sir Thursday, TheMalcolm.

7 votes are needed for a conviction or 6 to go to night.

5 votes for Gertrude (Mina Martell, Pebble That Hides, Ser Spidey, TheMalcolm, Chairman Meow)

4 votes for Ser Spidey (Sir Thursday, Lany Cassandra, Piper of Chaos, Gertrude)

1 vote for Chairman Meow (Kat)

1 vote for LCOTNW (Mentat)

1 players have not voted: LCOTNW.

Let me know if this count isn't right. Again.

[Ser Spidey]

Ser Spidey, I forget if you mentioned this already, but who do you suspect other than Gert?

I didn't. Reason being, I have no other real suspects. Gert's the only one to stick out to me. No-one other has done anything to make me consider him really suspicious, while Gert is looking quite bad to me at this point.

You could say that Lany, LC, Pebble and Malc are in my good books right now. I'd support Kat as a compromise lynch, but it's a moot point, seeing as we're close to the deadline, and my prime suspect is a likely lynch.

[LCOTNW]

What is the story on whether we should definitely lynch in the format where there is no CF?

I vaguely remember that we should lynch on day 1 no matter what, but I can't remember what the rationale is when we don't have a CF. Is it just to analyze the trains, or to create data for when we eventually have a finder reveal?

[Gertrude]

I'll place my vote on the highest poster in the interest of getting a lynch.

Fabulous reason.

Piper - now do you wonder why I usually wait til later in the day to check in? I always seem to put my foot in my mouth on day 1. No matter what I do or say from this point out, it's going to look bad to someone. I'm a little upset by Mina's reason for voting me. Apparently I don't know myself as well as she does because I am not acting as innocent Gert. Guess, what - I am, and you'll know that in time. How can I be so 'casual' about my voting? Perhaps because I'm not feeling like I have to watch my every move like I would if I were evil.

Malc - you asked me how a strong player like myself could be harping on Lany's obviously joking post? You should know the answer. Shit don't get done unless someone makes stupid cases and picks at the small points. Did I feel strongly about it? No. Did I have to act like I did in order to get a reaction? Hell yes.

So go ahead and vote me out because I am the top poster, or a strong player who is making bad cases, or for not acting like you think I should. I can't defend against arguments like this, arguments that aren't possible in an alted game. I'd much rather get voted off because I was being opportunistic or not sticking to my guns, but the rest is bull.

And the thing that really pisses me off is that my death won't help you at all. If this were CF I could be more fatalistic about it. This, however, sucks.

[Gertrude]

And just for the record, my suspicion of Lany is rising again because she completely disappeared after defending herself earlier. Classic move, just sayin'.

[Sir Thursday]

A fair bit has already been said about Spidey's initial 'serious' case. I can't believe he stands by that as serious and then turns around and rubbishes mine! Anyway, it did get things moving, so I can't really fault it too much. I stand by giving my own initial point a little weight, too, but that's been talked about at length as well.

So anyway, here are a few other posts of his that stood out a bit to me.

One important difference: I assumed we have the CF. Lany asked if we have one. So, yeah, I could definitely see that post as going for an impression of innocent behaviour...if that was something the FM did. However, I don't recall ever seeing an FM doing such a thing, so I actually feel a bit better about Lany because of that.

Now this I don't like. Just because no-one tried something like that before, doesn't mean it won't be tried. (And it has been tried. At Malazan, anyway) Fallacious thinking isn't scummy in and of itself, but it's the way that by feeling better about Lany, he's implying that people shouldn't hold his not reading the OP against him that irks me.

So, I see LC is being chosen as a possible compromise lynch. However, his lynch wouldn't get my support. The case on him is basically that he has appeared, but chose not to suspect anyone. To me, this is more likely an indication of innocence. LC is a good player, and if evil, he'd be sure to actually post some opinions.

This also makes Gert, who is pushing him, look even worse. Her play so far seems quite opportunistic, with some weird arguments, and I'm fully behind her lynch. She's currently the most suspicious player around.

This seems more than a little convenient given that he is the primary alternative at this point. I would have expected some candour, perhaps some sign that he is aware of the opportunistic nature of his post. After he was called on it he seemed to acknowledge the point, but that's a little late, I feel.

Anyway, of the two, I feel more comfortable keeping my vote where it is. Having said that, while the need for a lynch is not quite as overwhelming as it is in a CFed game, I'm still in the camp that feels it's worth getting one - otherwise the same ground keeps getting retrodden, and we lose time. So if I'm needed for a lynch, I'm willing to switch to Gertrude - I do still have a few doubts about her, after all.

[Mina Martell]

:worried:

I'll admit that sounds...very genuine. (I think Chairman Meow meant "person with the most votes," not "highest poster," though.) But I'm not only voting for you because you aren't acting like innocent Gert.

But Gert, why didn't you say before that you were poking at Lany just to get reactions?

[Ser Spidey]

What is the story on whether we should definitely lynch in the format where there is no CF?

I vaguely remember that we should lynch on day 1 no matter what, but I can't remember what the rationale is when we don't have a CF. Is it just to analyze the trains, or to create data for when we eventually have a finder reveal?

Both.

[Mina Martell]

I didn't. Reason being, I have no other real suspects. Gert's the only one to stick out to me. No-one other has done anything to make me consider him really suspicious, while Gert is looking quite bad to me at this point.

You could say that Lany, LC, Pebble and Malc are in my good books right now. I'd support Kat as a compromise lynch, but it's a moot point, seeing as we're close to the deadline, and my prime suspect is a likely lynch.

No one at all you suspect? Why do you feel good about LC, considering he's barely posted?

[Gertrude]

If I had said that, people would have called it wishy-washy and you know it. By stating what I was doing, it kind of nullifies the whole point of it, especially since I was poking LC the same way. find a small crack and pry at it even if you don't have your whole heart in it.

I honestly don't have a top suspicion right now. Spidey is my default mainly for self-preservation reasons. He hasn't acted vastly more suspicious than others at this point IMO.