The Judging Eye VI

[Shryke]

It could also be just a standard Ray Gun, which do tend to make shit blow up.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, that's true. It's not like we've seen the gory cauterized aftereffects of the thing. Like I said, just a possibility.

[Rhadamanth]

Excellent idea. Do you imagine that he was dispersed? If he was a soul in a vacuum then maybe he was. Some of him must have remained relatively close together, otherwise they would have to recreate him. Perhaps this is what it means when they say they summoned him.

[Shryke]

It's not a bad idea. Is there any description of the No-God's death?

[jurble]

I still want to know about Akka's vision where the No God didn't die. What was going on there?

[Rhadamanth]

I don't remember anything specific, other than a flash of light and boom he's gone. I have been looking in my copies of TTT and TDTCB but I can't find my copy of TWP. I think a more fleshed out version is in there somewhere, but I could be wrong.

[Shryke]

When Kellhus talks about the Sorceror's chanting around the Inchoroi's body, it's when the thing is possessing Esmenet. That was obviously a sorcerous thing.

We don't know for sure that the Synthese is Sorcerous at all.

Hell, do we even know which of the 2 things is the BirdHead and which the crazy CockDemon from the end of TWP and which was the one possessing Esmenet?

One of them could have flown their crazy body back to Golgotterath to do the projection thing.

[Slyfinger]

Quick question.

Did Mimara seal off the Outside when she used the Chorea on the Wight in the Mountain?

[jurble]

About the Heron spear, why do you think it's called that? I was thinking perhaps, that you know, a heron is a thin bird with a beak. Maybe the barrel and stock of the laser-file resembles the body of the heron and the handle resembles the beak?

And are they laser rifles or particle-beam guns? I was under the impression you can't see a laser beam, since seeing a laser beam would mean its particles have lost cohesion and were straying off - it's losing power. A particle-gun on the other hand would have all sorts of awesome light flying out of it.

Also, does anyone else think of the baby doll + spider toy thing from Toy Story when they think of a Synthese?

[Nerdanel]

When Kellhus talks about the Sorceror's chanting around the Inchoroi's body, it's when the thing is possessing Esmenet. That was obviously a sorcerous thing.

We don't know for sure that the Synthese is Sorcerous at all.

Hell, do we even know which of the 2 things is the BirdHead and which the crazy CockDemon from the end of TWP and which was the one possessing Esmenet?

One of them could have flown their crazy body back to Golgotterath to do the projection thing.

We have a POV from Aurang before we switch to Kellhus's POV in that scene. Thus we can know that it was Aurang possessing Esmenet and he did it from the bird body. It is also made very clear that Aurang himself uses sorcery, although his sorcerous strength is sharply limited due to the distance from his true body. He can still possess and create illusions though.

[Rhadamanth]

My guess is the Synthese itself is an artifact of the Tekne, but it needs sorcery to allow a soul to inhabit it. Perhaps it is similar to the way the Wathi doll works. I wonder if any of their other creations can be inhabited by another soul. Probably not very useful to inhabit a Sranc or Bashrag but maybe a skin spy.

Edit: Actually, they can inhabit a skin spy. At the end of Ch. 11 (in the PB of TTT) Esmi is confronted by Aurang who is possessing a skin spy. Interestingly, he casts a shadow with wings and is also able to walk through Wards. He says it is easy when one practices other arcana. I wonder what arcana he means, the Mangaecca and Nonmen used the Gnosis right? I don't think its the Tekne.

[jurble]

I think it's possible he knows at least some of the magic used by whatever that school was that produced Chorae.

[gladius]

I can't remember why I think this, but I feel reasonably confident. I think it's like Aurang has lots of serious work to do, so in the meantime the best way Aurax can make himself useful is to go on a raping interrogation spree in the North.

Aurang speaks normally while his brother uses the royal we.

[Rhadamanth]

Aurang is the one who possesses Esmi. Aurax is the dumb little rapey brother like Triskele says. Aurang is the one who makes all the plans (that's why he's called the Warlord, I guess).

Yeah, Aurang must know some of the Aporetic sorcery or something. I guess the Aporetics used whatever the opposite of the Gnosis is. Which makes me wonder, if the Aporetics were the opposite of the Gnosis (and similar language based sorceries) what would the opposite of the Cishaurim be (they supposedly recreate the passion of the God to shoot their energy beams, kinda like blind Care Bears)? Is this the mechanism of how a topos is created? All of that hatred and suffering producing a kind of anti-Care Bear force to breach the Outside and let Hell in.

[Tears of Lys]

Quick question.

Did Mimara seal off the Outside when she used the Chorea on the Wight in the Mountain?

Well, according to TJE, she says she "guards the Gates" and "holds" them. Now, what the Gates are, is left to speculation. The Gates between Here and Hell, I suppose. And Hell is, I guess, different from the Outside. So she's essentially closing off a section of the Topos from the Real World?

Your guess is as good as mine.

ETA: Heron Spear No wonder it was lost.

[unJon]

Or at least that's what they think they can do. We've still not seen the mechanism, and the Wathi doll appeared to be doing more of Akka's bidding than anything else.

I thought the Wathi doll showed real resourcefulness or maybe intelligence or some sort of soul-like qualities. Akka says one word to activate the doll, passes out, and the doll digs him out of a collapsed structure. Certainly more than a simple projection of Akka's will.

Wow, I didn't catch that at all. Interesting. So if it's a magical concoction only, that means the No-God can't be controlled from afar thanks to the Chorae.

My recollection of the passage is that Kel says something like the sorcerous cants are what is keeping Aurang's body alive. My takeaway was that the Synthese is all Aurang has left, his body is somehow permenantly damaged. I'm just guessing though, it could also be that it just means that the body is magically kept alive during the astral projection to the Synthese, but otherwise healthy. I think this passage is quoted in either TJE 4 or 5, but I'm too lazy to look.

A side effect of the above theory is that it fits well with what we know of the Heron Spear, which was described as a sort of laser. Laser effects don't really blow things up (unless they're xray lasers, but we know Heron Spear isn't).

What it does is pierce.

What it actually does is transfer energy at one specific frequency. The effects are totally dependant on the substance being struck. E.G., a microwave laser has the right frequency to boil water.

About the Heron spear, why do you think it's called that? I was thinking perhaps, that you know, a heron is a thin bird with a beak. Maybe the barrel and stock of the laser-file resembles the body of the heron and the handle resembles the beak?

On the three seas forum, Bakker confirmed that the name does come from the shape of the weapon.

And are they laser rifles or particle-beam guns? I was under the impression you can't see a laser beam, since seeing a laser beam would mean its particles have lost cohesion and were straying off - it's losing power. A particle-gun on the other hand would have all sorts of awesome light flying out of it.

This is only true of a laser beam in a vacuum. All lasers lose some cohesion in a non-vacuum.

Well, according to TJE, she says she "guards the Gates" and "holds" them. Now, what the Gates are, is left to speculation. The Gates between Here and Hell, I suppose. And Hell is, I guess, different from the Outside. So she's essentially closing off a section of the Topos from the Real World?

I'm pretty sure Hell is not different than the Outside in Bakkerworld.

[Nerdanel]

Re: souls, I don't think Bakker is doing any hugely unusual here. We know souls are immortal and survive the death of the body. We know human bodies die if the soul is removed. We know souls are capable of feeling or otherwise damnation would be pointless, and there is also evidence that souls are able think. It is unknown if souls are indestructible and/or indivisible. It is also unknown if soul = mind as it currently appears to be or if there is some difference we don't know about.

I really don't think the witches would make a mistake regarding something like trapping souls. Consider what we know of the process of making a Wathi doll:

1. Make a specially prepared bag.

2. Trap someone's last breath in the bag.

3. Assemble a specially prepared doll with the bag as the head.

4. It's a Wathi doll!

If Step Two does not involve trapping a soul, why it's there then? I don't think the witches would do a cumbersome step for no reason. They would even have to kill someone or hang around people dying of natural causes, bag at the ready, for what could be a long while. Thus Step Two has to do something to provide motive force and intelligence for the doll as well as something that can make a human face appear on the bag. If someone has ideas on what else the witches could be putting in the bags but souls departing the body, I'd like to hear them.

The most radical thing Bakker is doing with souls is that I suspect that there is no fundamental difference between dead humans, angels, demons, and gods. A soul is a soul is a soul. Power level and disposition and things like that can vary a lot, though. A human, if powerful enough, can die and become an entity that some call a demon and others worship as a god, and things like that.

[Kalbear]

We know souls are immortal and survive the death of the body.

No we don't.

We know human bodies die if the soul is removed.

No, we know that human bodies die when a demon who removes their soul does that action.

We know souls are capable of feeling or otherwise damnation would be pointless, and there is also evidence that souls are able think.

We don't know whether or not souls are capable of feeling anything.

I really don't think the witches would make a mistake regarding something like trapping souls. Consider what we know of the process of making a Wathi doll:

1. Make a specially prepared bag.

2. Trap someone's last breath in the bag.

3. Assemble a specially prepared doll with the bag as the head.

4. It's a Wathi doll!

If Step Two does not involve trapping a soul, why it's there then?

Because the actions they take aren't scientific? Sometimes people do things that don't actually matter, and are done for the ceremony. It's not like witches have had a School, after all. It's an oral tradition.

So we don't know that it's a soul. We know it's only a last breath. That's it. That last breath may be a reagent required. Or imprint the bag with a persona. Who knows?

The answer is, not you.

[unJon]

Kal, I generally agree with you in this debate, but you're really reaching in that last post. The TTT Glossary basically confirms the truths of the various types of gods and how they punish/reward in the afterlife. Sounds predicated on the survival of the soul after death, which can *feel* the difference between punishment and reward.

Nerdanel: we also know that a soul is a necessary but not sufficient condition to being among the Few. The random skin-spy that was a mandate sorceror was an accident of the Tekne that produced a creature with a soul.

[Kalbear]

See, I don't buy the appendix for the same reason I don't buy Ajencis' explanation of anything; it's like ascribing all the rules as scientific fact based on Plato's rationales or the Greek understanding of Humors.

It's probable that souls exist post life. Whether or not a soul has any actual consciousness, any thought, any relation to what it had in real life ... we just have no idea. We don't know what the gods are like either; we know what's thought of them, but the only one we've really seen in 'person' is Yatwer, and even people here have their doubts that what's going on is of Yatwerian origin (the Consult is mentioned frequently).

Regardless, I don't think it's clear that we can say 'we KNOW this'. And I certainly don't think it's reasonable to take poorly defined theorems based on those knowledges that aren't really known.