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The Judging Eye VI


Nerdanel

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See, I don't buy the appendix for the same reason I don't buy Ajencis' explanation of anything; it's like ascribing all the rules as scientific fact based on Plato's rationales or the Greek understanding of Humors.

Interesting. First time I've heard someone say that the Appendix--as opposed to the WHCB preface--might not be objective truth.
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Interesting. First time I've heard someone say that the Appendix--as opposed to the WHCB preface--might not be objective truth.

Well, the appendix mainly reports what Eärwan scholars know. In that sense, it's "objective": Ajencian philosophy is indeed what the appendix claims it is. And when the appendix tells you about the different theologies that describe gods, you can believe it.

But that doesn't mean that the appendix is correct. And we can be absolutely certain that Bakker will never tell us how everything "really" hangs together. (I think there is even an interview somewhere that confirms this suspicion.) He likes the fact that reality is contingent on our opinions about it, and would defeat his own project by giving us "the solution".

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The belief in immortal souls has been a major factor in the history of Eärwa. The actions of the Consult are all centered around saving their souls from damnation. Unlike in the real world, the existence of the Outside is a scientific fact that can be verified experimentally. If it wasn't so, we might expect that the Schools would have stopped believing in something so thoroughly unpleasant for themselves even before they jumped for Kellhus's comforting lie.

We are talking about a place where people can see directly into the Outside and hold conversations with demons. Someone like Iyokus can see for himself what it's like in Hell. It's possible that he can even find familiar people there. And that sort of powers aren't new to the world, as we know that there has been higher-powered Gnostic demon summoning in the past. That's something you might expect the Consult to be familiar with.

And then there's how we get to meet the shade of Gin'yursis who is not alive but is still able to hold a rational conversation.

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Yeah I think the apendix is just what the followers of the Gods believe, and may or may not be correct.

Does anyone have any ideas about Chanv I feel it will be important at some piont since it gets mentioned alot that no one knows were it comes from. Anyone got any interesting ideas?

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Aurang is the one who possesses Esmi. Aurax is the dumb little rapey brother like Triskele says. Aurang is the one who makes all the plans (that's why he's called the Warlord, I guess).

Yeah, Aurang must know some of the Aporetic sorcery or something. I guess the Aporetics used whatever the opposite of the Gnosis is. Which makes me wonder, if the Aporetics were the opposite of the Gnosis (and similar language based sorceries) what would the opposite of the Cishaurim be (they supposedly recreate the passion of the God to shoot their energy beams, kinda like blind Care Bears)? Is this the mechanism of how a topos is created? All of that hatred and suffering producing a kind of anti-Care Bear force to breach the Outside and let Hell in.

The Aporetic is not the opposite of the Gnosis. It's not anti-matter to the Gnosis' matter.

It's simply a branch of sorcery that exposes the inherent contradictions in any form of magic and causes it not to work.

Work's on any form of magic as far as we know.

What we don't know is whether one can DO anything with the Aporetic besides just make Chorae.

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The Aporetic is not the opposite of the Gnosis. It's not anti-matter to the Gnosis' matter.

It's simply a branch of sorcery that exposes the inherent contradictions in any form of magic and causes it not to work.

Work's on any form of magic as far as we know.

What we don't know is whether one can DO anything with the Aporetic besides just make Chorae.

Yeah, I had wondered about that. It would seem that an Aporetic Ward would be quite valuable. Doubly so if you could do it over a large enough area to encompass an opposing sorcerer.

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M: (Knock)

A: Come in.

M: Ah, Is this the right room for an aporetic magic?

A: I told you once.

M: No you haven't.

A: Yes I have.

M: When?

A: Just now.

M: No you didn't.

A: Yes I did.

M: You didn't

A: I did!

M: You didn't!

A: I'm telling you I did!

M: You did not!!

A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Are you here just for the basic cants or will you actually be damned for eternity?

M: Oh, just the basic stuff.

A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.

M: You most certainly did not.

[...]

A: Nonsense!

M: Oh, this is futile!

A: No it isn't.

M: I came here to learn magic.

A: No you didn't; no, you came here to learn magic.

M: Magic isn't just contradiction.

A: It can be.

M: No it can't. Magic is the practice of making the world conform to language, and blowing stuff up.

A: No it isn't.

[...]

…and so on. Stuff writes itself.

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I probably should have worded that better. What I meant was, language based sorcery is based on meanings, the closer one gets to the right meaning the better and more precise the effect. Aporetic sorcery is as you say. It exposes the contradictions in the language to nullify the effect. Maybe Aporetics can't be used for anything else but then what did Aurang use to bypass the Wards? The Tekne? I don't think it can be used that way. Nothing I've seen (or remember anyway) shows the Tekne to have an effect on sorcery. Maybe someone else remembers something?

Chorae can nullify Cishaurim sorcery (as well as destroy a demon's form, which I guess is something whose presence in the world is something that a contradiction would counteract). What I was wondering is this: if the Cishaurim use passion to create their sorcery (the more passion, the more power it seems; would an intensely angry Cish be more powerful?) would another kind of passion (intense suffering, for example) serve as another use of the same sort of sorcery? Would this be an example of how a topos is created? The intense suffering creating a sort of field effect to allow the Outside to leak in. Kind of like how sorcerers can use meanings to summon demons. We don't know much about the Cish, other than what Kellhus and Moenghus say, or really how their magic works(other than the passion and some of it requires some actual thought and subtlety, at least that was what Moenghus was saying about his power).

This is all just idle speculation, of course.

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Maybe Aporetics can't be used for anything else but then what did Aurang use to bypass the Wards? The Tekne? I don't think it can be used that way. Nothing I've seen (or remember anyway) shows the Tekne to have an effect on sorcery. Maybe someone else remembers something?

I thought a lot about Aporetic or special Consult/Mangaecca-related stuff when I read this passage as well, but reached the conclusion that it actually isn't necessary to assume Aurang is doing anything special at all here.

Walking between Wards is easy," a voice hummed, "when their author practises other arcana."

I interpret this as Aurang finding it easy to bypass Akka's Wards simply due to Akka not being able to focus properly on them, as he is doing other sorcerous stuff at the same time. Which would make sense - we know there was a glamour active at that moment as well.

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One doesn't use gnostic sorcey to summon and bind demons - there's a branch of sorcery termed the daimos that does that.

And hey, chanv might be involved as the only guy that uses the daimos also uses chanv...

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One doesn't use gnostic sorcey to summon and bind demons - there's a branch of sorcery termed the daimos that does that.

I don't think that the Daimos is a separate branch of sorcery, but more of a subset of it. I imagine that the demon-summoning rituals used by Iyokus are standard-issue Anagogic sorceries: perhaps like "we need a magic circle to delineate a boundary that the ciphrang cannot cross, we must speak these magical words to attract the ciphrang's attention, etc."...all analogies to attain the desired result of summoning a demon. I imagine that the Gnosis can be used for the Daimos as well, and the sorceries involved would be akin to "mathematically, this circle is the boundary of the outside that we superimpose on our world, we must speak these formulae to ensnare the ciphrang's soul, etc." Both branches of sorcery would have the same end result of the Daimos, but differing routes are taken to get there.

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I don't think that the Daimos is a separate branch of sorcery, but more of a subset of it. I imagine that the demon-summoning rituals used by Iyokus are standard-issue Anagogic sorceries: perhaps like "we need a magic circle to delineate a boundary that the ciphrang cannot cross, we must speak these magical words to attract the ciphrang's attention, etc."...all analogies to attain the desired result of summoning a demon. I imagine that the Gnosis can be used for the Daimos as well, and the sorceries involved would be akin to "mathematically, this circle is the boundary of the outside that we superimpose on our world, we must speak these formulae to ensnare the ciphrang's soul, etc." Both branches of sorcery would have the same end result of the Daimos, but differing routes are taken to get there.

Perhaps, but IIRC the scarlet spires are described as the sole possesors and discoverers of the Daimos.

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One thing that made me laugh was when one of the Ciphrang was summoned by Iyokus and it says something to the effect of "you summoned me? thou art damned, mortal!" I was thinking Iyokus was gonna say no shit, now do what I told you. He is already damned, how much worse could hell be for a Daimotic sorcerer? But I guess the Ciphrang will look for him to take his own revenge when the sorcerer reaches hell.

BTW, I agree that chanv seems like it might be important. It gives extra life but turns one pale and emotionless? Seems kinda strange, especially since no one knows where it comes from (although there was something about it coming from up the river that passes through High Ainon, IIRC not sure what that means.).

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