The Judging Eye VI

[Shryke]

One thing that made me laugh was when one of the Ciphrang was summoned by Iyokus and it says something to the effect of "you summoned me? thou art damned, mortal!" I was thinking Iyokus was gonna say no shit, now do what I told you. He is already damned, how much worse could hell be for a Daimotic sorcerer? But I guess the Ciphrang will look for him to take his own revenge when the sorcerer reaches hell.

BTW, I agree that chanv seems like it might be important. It gives extra life but turns one pale and emotionless? Seems kinda strange, especially since no one knows where it comes from (although there was something about it coming from up the river that passes through High Ainon, IIRC not sure what that means.).

It comes, as far as is known I believe, from Eastern High Ainon. It's rumored to actually come from over the Mountains (ie - from the place where Man lived before he broke through the Gates and invaded Earwa).

[Nerdanel]

Perhaps, but IIRC the scarlet spires are described as the sole possesors and discoverers of the Daimos.

Other schools know about Daimos too. The entry on Daimos has this to say:

For both political and pragmatic reasons, many Schools forbid its practice.

There definitely was something more explicit on Gnostic summonings too...

I think chanv probably comes from the mysterious Eänna and I agree that it will be important. I think it's possible that chanv is a more benign substance than is generally thought and its effects have been conflated with the effects of lead poisoning arising from a persistent use of lead-based body paint to hide the discoloration of the skin. I think the fertility problems of the addicts are probably due to the lead poisoning rather than chanv, while chanv's intelligence-enhancing effect may be even greater than thought, since lead poisoning harms mental functioning.

On a different subject, I found the following Biblical quote:

12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

It's from the Revelation. Bakker is clearly riffing a lot on real-world religion, so I wonder if this is his inspiration for how the children were born dead during the Apocalpyse. It would also explain the difference between the effects of the whore's shells and the No-God's presence if the whore's shells worked immediately on the new soul, possibly even before the embryo had implanted, and the No-God waited until the child was about to be born. And as for why the No-God would do that, well, I think the explanation is that the No-God is evil, and not just a little bit evil either, but a Ciphrang from Hell who has long since lost the nice side of his living personality along with most of his memories and now is consumed by a hunger for the suffering of others.

[Rhadamanth]

In this world, perhaps, lead poisoning would be a good explanation for some of that but I don't think Bakker would go for something that easy to explain. It's kind of funny Nerdanel but your theories are usually so convoluted that this one seems a little beneath you. Where's the conspiracy? Where's the No-God's (or Mekeretrig's) hand in this lead poisoning? I depend on Happy Ent for comic relief and you for crackpot theories. Don't let me down, Nerdanel. ;)

[lokisnow]

mutters something about selection & confirmation bias and the selective recruitment of data to fit in with a predetermined conclusion.

[Xereaux]

Perhaps, but IIRC the scarlet spires are described as the sole possesors and discoverers of the Daimos.

Sure, you're probably right. The Spires may have discovered the Daimos, and they may be the only ones brave/crazy/stupid enough to use it, but I don't think it's a separate branch of magic, just a specialized application of the Anagogis and theoretically the Gnosis as well.

[Curethan]

Could be, it only sounded like a seperate branch from what I remember of the way it was described.

[Nerdanel]

On the subject of lead poisoning, I think it's likely that Kellhus and his family suffer from it too, although to what degree it's hard to say since there are other factors in play too that could have similar effects. Lead poisoning from tainted water and wine is thought to have been a factor in the fall of Rome, apparently having had hand in such things as the low fertility of the Roman nobility and the madness of several emperors, and Bakker would have known that.

An interesting factoid is the general trend towards greater dysfunction in Kellhus's offspring as the time went on. A possible explanation for that is that both Kellhus and Esmenet's blood levels of lead increased with time, so that by the time Kellhus got himself concubines, the quality of his sperm (lead affects that too) had fallen very far indeed, while the prenatal environment of Esmenet's womb was ever more hazardous to developing brains.

Kellhus ended TTT in such a state of near-invincibility that I could see only two realistic ways to kill him. One would involve overpowering him with greater smarts and greater sorcery. The other would be to poison him using an unaware deliverer and a suitable poison that either kills him instantly so he doesn't have the time to react or so slowly and subtly that he doesn't know he is being poisoned at all.

[Borque]

About the lead poisoning - if there really is lead in the drinking water or somesuch, why would the effects be limited to the Anasûrimbors and chanv addicts?

[Nerdanel]

About the lead poisoning - if there really is lead in the drinking water or somesuch, why would the effects be limited to the Anasûrimbors and chanv addicts?

They wouldn't be. For example, Xerius was childless and may have had his brain functions impaired to some degree. The Anasûrimbors would have inherited an existing but unnoticed problem in the lead-lined aqueducts of Momemn and the local wine-making customs. Lead compounds can act as a preservative, killing microbes, and can also impart a sweet taste. Hence the name "sugar of lead" and why small children may voluntarily eat paintchips and like it...

The chanv addicts would be affected more severely than their peers (regardless of the normal exposure levels in High Ainon which may be different to those in Momemn) because they tend to keep themselves constantly painted with lead paint. Since Esmenet is heavily into makeup and even wears full-body white paint in the prologue, it makes sense than she would have higher exposure than the average too. Since her nervous system has already matured, her brain wouldn't be affected as strongly as the brains of the developing children in her womb, though.

[Happy Ent]

I depend on Happy Ent for comic relief and you for crackpot theories. Don't let me down, Nerdanel. ;)

So the Varys planted Shae theory is … comic relief?

[Ser Paladin]

About the lead poisoning - if there really is lead in the drinking water or somesuch, why would the effects be limited to the Anasûrimbors and chanv addicts?

If this is all a sham, that instead of philosophy and high magicry and the nature of god and political intrigue and "medieval vs. aliens", that all we're getting at the end is "and they all went mad due to lead poisoning" I will be severely put out.

[Tears of Lys]

If this is all a sham, that instead of philosophy and high magicry and the nature of god and political intrigue and "medieval vs. aliens", that all we're getting at the end is "and they all went mad due to lead poisoning" I will be severely put out.

This happens in Bizarro Earwa, visible only to a select few.

[drl84]

This happens in Bizarro Earwa, visible only to a select few.

Maybe the No-God's true power was not of his ability of causing miscarriages, but of taking credit from the lead in the water?

DAMN YOU Pb 82!

In all honesty, I think a more serious consequence of lead poisoning wouldn't be from the water, but from the makeup the Anoni are so fond of. If that is the case though, they would be severely disfigured. I don't buy the lead water poisoning thing for this one central fact:

Bakker wouldn't stoop that low to explain everything. This is a man who has worked out every detail of his secondary world to such a point where I'm sure lead wouldn't be given a spot in one of Kel's heart warming speeches.

And as for deformed children, if that is a case then the Empire would have been ineffective a long time ago and would have been overcome by their neighbours. It was noted that it was Esmi and the concubines who all shared this. What did they share? Kel. If Kel was the source of lead poisoning? He'd probably be unable to even get out of bed, much less take over and subplant an entire society's religious and social views, while kicking them to take out an unseen enemy at the end of the world.

[Kalbear]

Bakker wouldn't stoop that low to explain everything. This is a man who has worked out every detail of his secondary world to such a point where I'm sure lead wouldn't be given a spot in one of Kel's heart warming speeches.

He's admitted he really hasn't done this, by the way.

[Borque]

If this is all a sham, that instead of philosophy and high magicry and the nature of god and political intrigue and "medieval vs. aliens", that all we're getting at the end is "and they all went mad due to lead poisoning" I will be severely put out.

Well it would be a surprise and very original. I'd still want a refund though.

[drl84]

He's admitted he really hasn't done this, by the way.

I'll admit that he has used other natural, earthy characteristics to hinder humanity, such as the waterborn diseases during the march in TWP.

The thing though is that no matter how damaging it was to the march, it did not bring them down. Kel and the priests picked up on this and reaffirmed their 'choosen' path for the survivors. It was, with the dead, left behind and Bakker only briefly mentions it later on as the horrors of the march.

But if it is lead that is behind all of this, to such the extent that Ner has pointed out, then Bakker would have let on a few more concrete hints of it corrupting and weakening Kel/people. The Empire would have become stagnant, or at least visibly slowed, if everyone drank lead, there would be news of this within the daily audiences of the palace, religious nutpots claiming that this is some sign of God(s) displeasure, etc. We've seen less than a fart of evidence pointing towards Lead posioning; So far we've been told more about the religious rites of the Yaw faction than we have of definte lead poisoning being behind x number of events.

[Nerdanel]

I think we should consider how lead poisoning presented itself in the historical Roman Empire. It wasn't some sudden catastrophe. There were low birthrates, prevalent gout, and several mad emperors, but the empire chugged on for a long time. It helped that the lower classes had lower exposure and weren't affected nearly as badly. There was some recognition that lead perhaps wasn't healthy (after all, mining lead was known to be very obviously harmful to the slaves involved to the point of being an effective death sentence), but since lead was so useful and because no one knew how bad it really was, people kept overlooking the implications. This could serve as a metaphor for a lot of things...

Now, the Nansur Empire has been in decline for a long while, losing territory bit by bit. It may have been suffering from moderate levels of lead poisoning, especially among the nobility of Momemn, for all that time. Thus no one there would notice anything new or strange. The Hundred Gods may not know or care. As for Kellhus, if he doesn't know that lead poisoning exists, he cannot very well to take action against it, even if he is being affected by it.

(Confusing the matters, I also suspect that a prolonged use of magic also causes insanity. It's different, though.)

But a simple lead poisoning doesn't have to imply a letdown. It could get Kellhus fail in a truly epic fashion while the readers, used to Kellhus wrapping the plot around his little finger, stand in disbelief, sure that Kellhus will have to triumph somehow... right? Prenatal and continuing lead poisoning (along with a little whispering from the No-God) could turn Kelmomas into the most deranged tyrant imaginable when he inevitably seizes the power. In fact, I expect him to enforce the mark of a Sumna whore as a condition for buying and selling (to make Esmenet feel better about hers, of course) and to burn down Momemn one night for fun, among other things.

[jurble]

Nerdanel, I must say I have found most of your theories ludicrous. But this lead poisoning stuff is brilliant.

[Kalbear]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was saying that Bakker hadn't planned everything out to a T. There are a lot of things not quite revealed, and some things he's had to change. It's not all cut and dried.

[drl84]

I think you are reaching into too many different sources, Ner. You may pose the theories in a reasonable way, but it is just too much of a leap.

Yes, there are potential references that Bakker alludes to, but I doubt he'd follow them through-and-through to such an extent as you describe.

For the most recent example of logical leaping: Prolonged magic makes the user crazy?

First off, there is no evidence of this, if anything the patriarchs who dominate the great schools (Mandate, Scarlet Spires, Imperial Saik) are old men who have practiced since their youths, much longer than Kel has.

They are morally corrupt, yes, but not mentally unhinged. Prime example is Eleazaras' mastery of jnan: does he seem the posterboy of insanity at the start of the war? The only reason why he goes mad later on is that he has understood that this simple war he has put his school into is far more . . . complicated, something like out of a lovecraft horror.

EDIT: Kal, oh yeah I can understand that. The best authors are the ones who constantly revise, and Bakker's imagination is certainly up there.