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The Judging Eye VI


Nerdanel

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But I don't believe any of it. It is stated in the books that the No-God was summoned. I think he came from the Outside and he wasn't a Consult AI of any sort. I think only the body his soul inhabited was made by Tekne.

And you also think that the primary villain of the story is lead poisoning. Moving on...

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A soul is required because the only way to do magic is by a connection to the Outside - that we know of, at least. I'd think that the No-God could do magic of sorts in a more tekne way.

We don't know that the No-God practices magic, right? We just know that it caused wombs to fail and no life to become anew, that dread perpetrated the world, that sranc were more effective and controllable and there was a whirlwind of dust. But what we don't know is that any of these things were actually sorcery. They can all be explained in different ways (the birthing is a failure due to the No-God severing the link between Outside and normal world, the dread the same thing. The sranc control may be an aspect of how the No-God is created. The whirlwind could simply be a weather machine).

Heck, is there any evidence that the No-God uses magic at all? Like literal magic? We have evidence that they shouldn't be able to use magic at all due to the chorae. Given that, it either has to be magic that ignores chorae, or something that isn't magic, right?

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And you also think that the primary villain of the story is lead poisoning. Moving on...

Come on. I said I think lead poisoning is a FACTOR. I think the primary villain of PoN was Kellhus. I think the primary villain of Second Apocalypse will most likely be the No-God, although that's still open.

Please try to respond to the actual argument about souls and computers.

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Which is...what? That a computer can't have a soul? All I saw was you stating your opinion.

Your point used to be that a computer would be awesome at magic and you thought the No-God was a computer, but when I showed you that a computer wouldn't be able to use magic at all unless it somehow acquired a soul, you started to say that the No-God is a computer that doesn't use magic but achieves grand metaphysical effects entirely through natural means.

And since the No-God was one-of-a-kind, it sounds like you think the Consult fell with the No-God straight into the No Plans No Protype No Backup trope. The Consult may be stupid, but they're not THAT stupid.

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They're just ideas. I make no claims that they're authoritative.

I don't see a problem with a computer with a soul any more than a skin-spy with a soul. Souls aren't exactly well defined in Bakkerland. Alternately, there an argument to be made that a superconsciousness that does not have a soul could also practice magic without a link to the Outside. And honestly, a one-off tekne creation that the Consult poured their work into that also happened to have a soul might be reasonable. After all, they were trying desperately to make a nuke; it just so happened that when they did make their nuke, it automatically 'sets off'.

A side note: the theory is that the No-God blocked access to the Outside while in existence. The theory is that magic also comes from the Outside. But both of those things can't be true.

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Eh, couldn't sleep tonight so I have constructed an epic post of meandering waffle for you all to enjoy. Or ignore.

I have said before the metaphysics of magic are not mathamatical or scientific, in Earwa or in any other half way decent book. Because if it was it wouldn't be magic, dangnabit. It's nice if it follows rules and is somewhat consistent, but by definition of being magic it breaks the laws of science (or maths). Otherwise it would just be a branch of science. Example: 2oranges+2oranges=4oranges. As a wizard IRL I can use magic by believing the oranges become actual apples as they pass through the mental construct of the equals sign and speaking it in latin. I might be able to prove I have this magical skill by repeated demonstrations as I group the oranges and magicaly end up with apples. But it still aint maths and it doesn't make sense however consistently I do it, and you will never build a machine with science that can do it. (Unless you can build magic machines, but it still won't be the same trick)

In Bakkerworld magic is about meanings and how souls relate to the world and the "meta-soul" within. You can use maths and science to describe a cart, for example, but there is no way to describe the relationship between this object and the man who owns it (which encompases memories, a sense of ownership etc) Although it may seem similar this is because maths and science require a language in order to manipulate the natural world, sorcery and the actions of the gods etc is linked to meaning rather than description. Thus analogies, contradictions, emotion, belief etc all have supernatural weight and effects - unlike in our scientific world.

Once an engineered product of breeding, science, tekne or whatever interacts with magic it evolves. The dunyain are geneticaly engineered and via nurture they are kept seperate from magic, thus the elimination of emotion. Kelhus is able to isolate and quantify nearly every variable to a greater degree than the most complex computer system (which won't do shit without someone to interpret that data. He does this from the outset of PoN, using axiomatic rules which are then enacted to fufil his goals, rather than through insight and empathy. Note that he is basicly incapable of making his own goals, he follows his instructions from Ishual and then becomes part of Moe's TTT. In TTT and TJE we saw him start to make his own goals and subsequently the gods start to oppose him.

So, it's my belief that once a machine/computer/engineered creature is able to use magic it will become something else. Ensouled if you will, able to apprehend the logos, free of it's programming, an individual. And thus it will be a trusty tool no longer.

Every thinking being's actions in the wider world are dictated by TDTCB, and I think the gods are part of this inertia. Animals, plants and other forms of nature would have a simpler form of inertia, free of judgement, rewards and retribution. I think this is the entity that Kellhus is comunicating with at the end of TTT. Anthromorphic gods like Yatwer etc would be more like currents of belief and emotion in the magical ether and thus are capable of manifesting through TDTCB and magic as we see in TJE. Sorcery seems to be based on juxtaposing primordial meanings against modern, creating "imposible" effects thereby. e.g. walking on ground that used to be there; exploding people back to their constituent bits; talking to someone you remember through dreams; wards against other meanings,. So magic-users are using the meanings from the darkness to create effects that are not supposed to happen in the present by manipulating what basicly amounts to inconsistencies and meanings that are almost forgotten, if that makes sense. And because the source of these thaumaturgical effects is the same as that of the anthromorphic gods it's no wonder sorcerers are damned because they are mucking about with TDTCB.

Now, you need to be one of the few to wield sorcery. What does this mean? I think in the main it might be simply a balance of mental acuity, critical thought and emotional gravity, because these are the common traits in all the sorcerous character from what I recall, and always in larger quantities than other characters. Obviously what we know of the psukhe, the gnosis and anagogic magic back this up to some extent too. Probably there is something more to it, I tend to just roll with Kellhus' explantion that the few have "bigger" souls but maybe there is an element of desperation needed too. Inrau chose religon instead after all.

So, Kellhus is our best example of an engineered device using sorcery and its seems clear that he is being used by the magic just as much now. I mean, he has no personal need to save anyone, he doesn't even love Esme or his children - well, at least the pre-TTT Kellhus would not be moved by such things.

The no-god is undoubtedly a construct made by the tekne, but the Inchies didn't need him until they realised that the magic of Earwa was affecting them. I'm fairly confident they weren't damned before they started interacting with the non-men. They learned the hard way about sorcery when their lasers were overmatched by dudes with swords and harsh language. I imagine they would have been studying the non-men's metaphysics just as hard as their genetics while they were cooped up there.

It stands to reason that after arriving in Earwa their initial goal would simply have been survival. Sustenance, procreation and mastery of the environment would be the expected objective. Upon their first meeting with the non-men they were labeled abominations and killed. Hardly an auspiscious introduction. Then through the course of the first war they aligned with traitors, then betrayed them or were betrayed by them and got whupped. So, upon becoming part of Earwa they wound up on the wrong side of the darkness, magic ... whatever, and were changed by it. So they needed to dominate not just the physical world but the meanings of the world too - the outside.

The inchies were described as "wearing" bodies from the very start. We know that the tekne encompasses making souless automatons (sranc, skin spies etc) that function using carnal drives as motivation. It seems only emotions that require belief count toward the magical reality of a soul - lust, rage, hunger etc are feelings that own you. Clearly this wouldn't work for the no-god. They need something that unravels meaning on a scale that will destroy belief and the memory of belief. So if u can imagine a computer that not only forgets stuff but also causes other people to forget stuff you might be able to convince me that the no-god is a machine. I'm reasonably sure that inside the carapace there is somekind of machinery/biological tekne framework, methods of locomotion, loudspeakers, whirlwind generator, minion motivators, and a bunch of sorcerers brains, alive but disconected from any sensory input mebe? (that idea comes from Mekky telling Seswatha that the no-god ate the king's soul and was pleased or something). Anyway, it would be the exception to my rule about magic using machines above because it is, I believe, a product of aporetic sorcery. Simultaneously a contractiction of the existing flow of magic in Earwa and an affirmation of the reality the consult wishes to fufill (evidenced by its abilty to co-ordinate the sranc hordes, eat souls etc whilst seemingly unable to perceive itself beyond the fact that it exists.

As an aside, I've been reading about Stoicism recently and I believe it is a strong influence.

Here's a fairly succint description of the basics.

If you took a Stoic and removed his emotions completely you would have something like a Dunyain. The impression I get of Anasurimbur Celmomas reminds me of Marcus Aurelious (Roman Emperor and famous Stoic). I would like to read his "Meditations" if I can find a copy. I wonder who prints that sort of stuff.

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Erm, well looks like this is devolving into parody and snark.

Now I aint claiming there is some secret truth that only I can see, and I think its unfair to rag on people this way. Sure, I don't agree with many of the theories here, but there are some interesting points in there. If you dont agree with something, thats great, critisize the idea. If you don't think it's worth it, then don't. Humour is welcome, but this seems a little personal - "Here, look at me. I'm pretending to be that guy I don't like. Duuur. Here's my dumb theory. I sure am dumb. Duuur." That's not nice. Maybe it's frustration at the stagnation of this thread that causes people to only post when they feel like they can score points or are irritated. I would advise ignoring it for a while instead.

The purpose of discussions like these is to share information and insight. It's a place for learning and amusment to me.

I do believe that Bakkerworld has a highly interesting setting and the intergration of philosophy and psychology is unique and fascinating. It's fun to speculate and play in the sandbox of ideas that make up this world. To me and others this is a modern classic; lifechanging and illuminating.

I do need to apologize, especially to Nerdanel. I don't mean to come off as attacking as I have probably been. Bad form on my part.

But its also worth pointing out that reading a work of fiction like Revelations and applying it to Bakkerverse is not any different from watching a work of Fiction like It's a Wonderful Life and applying it to Bakkerverse, or in my serious moments, I tend to incorporate a lot of Dune references to discussing Bakkerverse. Particularly in a Bakker thread we should be primed to watch out for recruitment fallacies and selection/confirmation biases.

I was being serious about the NoGod being a computer, having a vague memory of Thorsten's theory is what spawned that bit of the post.

But anyway...

Magic in any context contravenes the scientific principles of the world in which it exists. That's what magic is. In Bakkerworld magic follows the metaphysical principles of language and belief. Consider this metaphor. Kellhus is basicly a quantum computer when he leaves Ishual, but as he interacts with the supernatural forces of Earwa he is changed and "used", now he's on a holy mission and talks to gods.

Extending this suposition to the Inchies, perhaps their ark was designed as a colonisation craft. Rather than terraforming the new planet, their vessel is stocked with genetic material and manned by somekind of AI. After millenia of striving against unexpected resistance and unquantafiable magic they have been changed and almost destroyed despite their technologicl superiority. That might explain the fixation with rutting and violence and perhaps clarify their goals a bit.

But magic does not have to contravene the scientific principles if the underlying principles are fundamentally different. Bakkerverse is a universe where the intentional is manifest and has tangible qualities. If the principles of this world allow emotions, thoughts, and actions to have manifest objective characteristics, its reasonable to theorize (for fun) that scientific principles of Bakkerverse encompass such magic. Science is not necessarily a chorae to magic in Bakkerverse... or is it?

Because we define magic as contravening scientific principles in our universe doesn't mean that magic is not subject to scientific principles in Bakkerverse. This is a universe where souls are objectively real rather than a convenient metaphysical unobjectively verifiable theory most everyone believes in.

The problem with computers and magic is that a soul is needed to be able to use magic,
This assumes that the outside, an objectively verifiable reality in Bakkerverse, is only accessible through the metaphysical. If the outside, like all other metaphysics in this universe, is untouchable by all objective systems of measurement and testing then it is not actually objective--the intentional world would still be intentional. I think if something is objective a machine can deal with it. 200 years ago no one would have said that a machine can breathe, but now we routinely have machines do breathing for humans, whether in a hospital or scuba diving. The question is, is the human is still breathing, or does the machine have some agency in the matter as well? What is to stop a machine from being better at accessing the outside other than ludditism?
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If indeed the No-God was capable of creating sorcery with perfect meaning, then Chorae would not stop it. Consider:

Kellhus tells us that sorcery in its various forms is an imperfect recollection of the God's voice that have the power to alter reality in a localized, somewhat transient sense. The imperfection and contradiction inherent therein is what the Chorae undo, apparently violently. The Mark seems to be related to the damage done to onta by practitioners over years of using an imperfect sorcery to affect a perfect world. The Psukhe is the same, just to a lesser extent; it seems that Chorae are destructive even in the face of minor contradictions.

Anyway, my point is that a perfect sorcery would be the same as objective reality and would not have an inherent contradiction, and would therefore be unaffected by Chorae, in the same way that trees are unaffected by Chorae.

As a tangent, I want to say that I don't think that Chorae work linguistically; rather, the contradiction must be between the reality that a sorcerer is attempting to impose and objective reality (ie the sorcerer's reality contradicts objective reality, and the Chorae prevents this). The basis for this is that Chorae are effective against the Psukhe, which does not seem to use language at all.

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Anyway, my latest personal theory on the No-God is that it consists of a small piece of the Outside, packed in an Aporetic box. With some kind of entity inside, of unknown type. A portable topos, only the wall between Eärwa and the Outside actually is completely breached and not only thin. This, I think, is not a stable state, so when the Carapace is damaged the No-God is destroyed.

Somewhat like Wonko the Sane in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

This could explain the topos on the plain of Mengedda, it's what remains of the original breach.

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If indeed the No-God was capable of creating sorcery with perfect meaning, then Chorae would not stop it. Consider:

Kellhus tells us that sorcery in its various forms is an imperfect recollection of the God's voice that have the power to alter reality in a localized, somewhat transient sense. The imperfection and contradiction inherent therein is what the Chorae undo, apparently violently. The Mark seems to be related to the damage done to onta by practitioners over years of using an imperfect sorcery to affect a perfect world. The Psukhe is the same, just to a lesser extent; it seems that Chorae are destructive even in the face of minor contradictions.

Anyway, my point is that a perfect sorcery would be the same as objective reality and would not have an inherent contradiction, and would therefore be unaffected by Chorae, in the same way that trees are unaffected by Chorae.

As a tangent, I want to say that I don't think that Chorae work linguistically; rather, the contradiction must be between the reality that a sorcerer is attempting to impose and objective reality (ie the sorcerer's reality contradicts objective reality, and the Chorae prevents this). The basis for this is that Chorae are effective against the Psukhe, which does not seem to use language at all.

Rather than strict linguistic definition as might be found in a dictionary, I am refering to the interpretive meaning - the epistimology. Consider how your casual definition of a word would differ from that found in a reference book. You still no how to use the word effectively and yet your defination is likely to be subtly different.

The psuke is rooted in the emotive aspect of meaning, which is no less powerful for all its lack of form and definition. These are two aspects of how magic is interpreted but ultimately the are the same, thus the effect of chorae is the same.

@ locksnowe; no worries man, I am a sensitive lil creampuff :P

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I am not sure, but I just find it curious that two cultures seeing their pinnacles in their sorcery seem defined on the one side by emotion and on the other side by intellect.

And the ones defined by Intellect are considered Dammned and reviled while those defined by emotion are honored in their society, I dunno it's an interesting question.

Another interesting question also does anyone know if women can practice the psuke? Also I wonder if there was a reason Kellhus did'nt create a school that used the psuke? It seems like it might have its uses and Kellhus kept the anagogic schools.

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Psukhe seems to intimately tied to the Fanim religion (it's all God-fervor based). A school based on the Psukhe-concept would require Kellhus-fanatics, I guess. But I'm sure Kel would rather have Mandate sorcerers as fanatics as opposed to blind, plasma shooting fanatics.

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Re: computer magic

I could program my desktop computer make coffee, but even with unlimited processing capability it wouldn't be able to do it if it lacked hands or the equivalent. An Inchoroi computer would be in a similar situation, lacking the connection to the Outside, as Tekne cannot make real souls. If a soul wasn't really needed for magic, the Inchoroi wouldn't have just produced one No-God, they would have produced lots of Gnosis-wielding super-Sranc with improved intelligence. Even if the super-Sranc were only mediocre sorcerers, they would have been a huge asset to the Consult.

Re: wearing bodies

I interpreted the bit about the Inchoroi wearing "festering bodies" in battle to mean that they used parts of their fallen enemies as decorations, much like the Sranc. The Inchoroi did put a lot of themselves into their creations...

Re: magic and meanings

I think Anagogic sorcery is the one that invokes the meanings behind the words of learned normal language. I think Gnostic sorcery is more abstract than that.

For example, the Compass of Noshainrau is probably done with something to the effect of drawing a line segment in the world from (0, 1, 0) to (0, 100, 0). When Achamian swings it around, felling trees, he rotates the line segment around the z-axis. Things like that.

Re: literature etc. references

I think there's no one that denies Bakker has been influenced by Tolkien and that the Cil-Aujas section in particular was an intentional homage. Dune influence isn't either hugely controversial.

I might speculate that certain details of the Cil-Aujas section suggest that Bakker has been influenced by Kikoushi Enma, but the anime isn't exactly famous and was pretty bad besides, being all darker and edgier in the very worst meaning of the trope. Kikoushi Enma does have a lot of gratuitous blood and nudity though, so maybe Bakker would have watched it and gotten ideas. We can't know.

Anyway, the Bible isn't like that at all. It's seriously famous. You get exposed to it simply by living in a Western culture, and someone like Bakker would have read it too. The Revelation is one of the more famous parts of the Bible, having inspired numerous derivative works from Omen to Good Omens. And when you consider that the first three books were heavily inspired by the First Crusade and Bakker has talked about Eärwa being the kind of world the ancient Israelites thought they lived in, the Bible is definitely worth a look for relevancy. And then there's stuff like Gnosis in the books... Gnosticism is a lot more obscure than standard Christianity.

Re: blocking the Outside

I think the No-God doesn't generate some impenetrable metaphysical wall, but rather uses his vast and far-reaching spiritual power to take the vulnerable souls of those dying or being born. Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery works differently and so isn't affected. If there had been Cishaurim at the time, they might have gotten themselves killed by the No-God though, Zioz style, since their brand of magic seems to leave their soul more vulnerable.

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But anyway...

Magic in any context contravenes the scientific principles of the world in which it exists. That's what magic is. In Bakkerworld magic follows the metaphysical principles of language and belief. Consider this metaphor. Kellhus is basicly a quantum computer when he leaves Ishual, but as he interacts with the supernatural forces of Earwa he is changed and "used", now he's on a holy mission and talks to gods.

This is not true.

1) Moe, who practices Logos and magic states that magic does not violate the principle of what comes before determines what comes after.

2) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - ACC

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Sorry if this has been said before, but has anyone noticed how much the Ramayana has influenced Bakker's writings (perfect sons, god in man, epic journey, epic war against demons)? Has Bakker ever acknowledged that it is an influenced on his writings?

This is not to take away from Bakker's writing in anyway, it is just something I noticed.

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