The Judging Eye VI

[Curethan]

What is this about computerized magic? :shocked:

Can someone explain to me "how" magic works? You guys talk a lot about the different types of magic and how they have different philosophical thought processes that drive the magic. I never really picked this up during my reading. Does anyone care to give a brief overview of how each magic system "works" beyond it being, you know, magic? :ohwell:

The best in text clarifacations can be found in the TTT in the glossary section; refer to anagogis, chorae (no entry on the aporos, with which it is made) daimos, gnosis, sorcery and psukhe/chisaurim, and in chapter ten (about ten pages in in my copy) where Kellhus explains why the 'few' can do miracles to Akka. Although that is seen by some as unreliable due to Kellhus' pending manipulation of Akka and his tendency to use truth to decieve in such situations.

That's as definitive as you get because no-one can aggree on a formal interpretation beyond that, haha.

ETA. Ah ninja'd by Wrath but hopefully my post is useful finding Kellhus and Akka's chat if you would like to check it out for yourself.

[lokisnow]

Garlan, listen to these guys, they do know what they're talking about. still, sorcery is always described in mathematical terms (parabolas of doom fire!) and Kellhus basically uses trigonometry to teleport himself, so I think there are some interesting math/science principals underlying it. And no, I do not think that they are in the matrix, so to speak. mwahaha.

I personally think that Kellhus is telling the truth, although the bit about the Psuhke doesn't make much sense to me - if all sorcery is a recollection of the God's voice, then it seems that the Psuhke would be more powerful, rather than somewhat less powerful.

iirc, the Psuhke isn't really focused, and their magic is more like spraying a fire-hose of water out of their mouth right? Now a firehose is pretty powerful, lots of force behind it, but if you focused that down into a finely controlled and highly pressurized stream it would be much more powerful, slice up stones, chop someone's head off, be better than any edged weapon, so to speak. that's what I feel the gnosis does, it gives a finely controlled lens with which to focus raw magic. Cishaurim may be able to summon more raw magic because of the intensity of their passion, but the gnosis and anagogis can focus and control their overall more weakly powered magic and match and overwhelm the abilities of the Cis.

Crackpot theory time. Has anyone considered if the Emwamma were unevolved humans? More like Neaderthals or half evolved ape men? What if the Inchies took some Emwamma, crossed them with non men and started a colony of these new human creatures on the far side of the globe and let it grow into a great host, a few thousand years later, the breaking of the gates and the nonmen are overthrown from within. the fascinating thing about this is it makes the inchie's humankind's creators, which sort of makes Aurax/Aurang their God and benefactors. and by waging the great ordeal they war against god and his will. ;)

Really crackpot theory. What if there's a whole, other Second foundation?! and another, second ark crashed on the other side of the globe? all this time and no one is aware of it and they're really manipulating the whole of events from afar. Let's go all in and say that Mek is their secret representative on this side of the planet.

[red snow]

Really crackpot theory. What if there's a whole, other Second foundation?! and another, second ark crashed on the other side of the globe? all this time and no one is aware of it and they're really manipulating the whole of events from afar. Let's go all in and say that Mek is their secret representative on this side of the planet.

I'll see your crackpot theory and raise it. What if the rest of that space faring race turn up? Like a whole armada of them and maybe some of them who actually know how all the technology really works. The inchoroi strike me as the "lost" survivors in that they were passengers on a spaceship but didn't really know how it operated but they at least had a doctor/genetecist on board (and a few sex addicts).

[Spring Bass]

I personally think that Kellhus is telling the truth, although the bit about the Psuhke doesn't make much sense to me - if all sorcery is a recollection of the God's voice, then it seems that the Psuhke would be more powerful, rather than somewhat less powerful.

Some of the Cishaurim were as powerful as any of the Schools, but the problem with the Psuhke is that its emotional, passion-driven nature also makes it very difficult to use and control in the same way that the intellectually-driven Anagogis and Gnosis are done.

[Maithanet]

I'll see your crackpot theory and raise it. What if the rest of that space faring race turn up? Like a whole armada of them and maybe some of them who actually know how all the technology really works. The inchoroi strike me as the "lost" survivors in that they were passengers on a spaceship but didn't really know how it operated but they at least had a doctor/genetecist on board (and a few sex addicts).

Crackpot ^ 3 - What if the Inchoroi are actually a reality program sent to an undeveloped world to create mischief and killer ratings!

Convinced that they must avoid the paltry human concept of "damnation" in order to return back home as the victors, Aurax and Aurang are once again up to their tricks of genetic modification and rape. The first Apocalypse was the culmination of the second season, after the epic non-men/Wracu showdown to end of season 1. The show went on brief (to an immortal race) hiatus due to creative differences, which accounted for the long lull between seasons 2 and 3. But there remained a small, but devoted cult following for Alien Adventures on Earwa.

After the new director Mekeritrig introduced season 3's Big Bad (a nearly invincible warrior-prophet named Kellhus), ratings returned to their highs at the end of season 2. Everyone agreed that it was a bold move to introduce a human as the villain, since they seemed so pitiful generally, and humans-wielding-magic had already been played out in season 2. But once it was revealed that Kellhus had the power of limited omniscience, fans really started to get on board with him being a credible threat. One Inchoroi is very excited for the rest of season 3: "Kellhus totally reminds me of Paul from Dune. Man, that is like my favorite book, and to make a tv show just like that? WOW."

It remains to be seen if Aurax and Aurang will be able to avoid "damnation" this season, or if producers will up the ante and give them further obstacles for season 4.

[red snow]

Crackpot ^ 3 - What if the Inchoroi are actually a reality program sent to an undeveloped world to create mischief and killer ratings!

That's so out there it could be true :) It could also explain the prophecy's in the sense they are previews/repeats. Maybe Kellhus' uber power is actually him getting hold of the producers notes/loose script.

All this and I'd still argue that Big Brother, X-factor and the Hills have done more damage to our world than the Inchoroi. Any possible deity should refuse us admission for watching those shows.

[unJon]

Well, I think that my original post was about the semantic definition of magic vs science. Don't see any irony in it.

! I said that physics works in the same way, except where magic contradicts it. You read the part where a bunch of ironage savages with swords, chariots and MAGIC kicked the arses of the dudes with lasers, spacetravel tech and geneticly egineered cannon fodder, right? :shocked:

You're missing the point. If you definition of magic is "contravenes science" that's fine, but it means that you have absolutely no idea if there is magic in Bakkerworld. If you're definition of magic is "singing that sends hexagons of death spinning towards your enemies" then you definetely have that in Bakkerworld, but you have absolutely no idea if it contravenes Bakkerworld science. Your adherence to the former definition while insisting it exists in Bakkerworld is simple question begging.

The nice thing about the scientific method is that it is independent of the local natural laws. Even if computerized magic doesn't work due to soul issues, that doesn't mean that magic and the Outside cannot be subjected to scientific inquiry.

Exactly.

[Curethan]

You're missing the point. If you definition of magic is "contravenes science" that's fine, but it means that you have absolutely no idea if there is magic in Bakkerworld. If you're definition of magic is "singing that sends hexagons of death spinning towards your enemies" then you definetely have that in Bakkerworld, but you have absolutely no idea if it contravenes Bakkerworld science. Your adherence to the former definition while insisting it exists in Bakkerworld is simple question begging.

Exactly.

I'm afraid I don't understand what your problem is. Contradictory systems can and do exist in spite of each other. An environment with no oxygen contrevenes the possibility of fire within it's limits. Doesn't mean fire ceases to exist.

It's a bit different in the case of magic, sure. Best if you just keep along with your idea that magic is always unrecognized scienctific application and I will keep along with my thoughts that it is men doing miracles, and we just leave it at that I guess.

[unJon]

It's a bit different in the case of magic, sure. Best if you just keep along with your idea that magic is always unrecognized scienctific application and I will keep along with my thoughts that it is men doing miracles, and we just leave it at that I guess.

I'll try one more time. In some fantasy books, magic does truly "contravene science", meaning that it is not subject to being reduced to regular, predictible rules of behavior through observation and experiment. I have not say that magic is ALWAYS unrecognized science. Just that magic being inconsistent with science is not a necessary component of magic.

In Bakkerworld, I think there is reason to think that everything, magic, the Outside falls within the realm of scientific inquiry. What comes before determines what comes after. We have supersmart people (Moe and probably Kel) that believe the the law of causality and think magic does not contradict it. We think magic may come from the Outside, which seems to be some wild place, without rules. However, if what comes before determines what comes after EVERYWHERE, even Outside, even in the realm of magic, then causality holds everywhere. (As an aside, note that this rule actually contradicts "science" as we know it--quantum mechanics.) If causality holds everywhere, Kel can enter his probability trance and figure out how to "dominate" circumstance. Literally come before the powers that be on the Outside.

However, if the realm of magic and the Outside contravene "science" then there is no rhyme or reason. Kel would enter the probability trance and come out saying "I have no frikkin' idea what these gods are going to do. They operate by different rules, if there are rules that govern their behavior at all, which I just cannot understand. They are *magical.*"

Granted that the jury is still out, but I think the former is more likely to be true. I am actually saying something that has meaning within the book. As far as I can tell you are making a semantic distinction that shows nothing about the book.

Make sense?

[Curethan]

Yeh, fair enough.

The systems of Earwan magic that we have most knowledge of are manipulated using axioms of logic and theory indicating there is an overlap in the metaphysics, not in physics. This is probably where I err, in that I am tending to classify science as relating to physics, chemistry and engineering rather than as a theoretical approach.

But...

For a start you are not including prophecy, which is magic. Kelhus struggles with this as it certainly breaks his understanding of causality, Moe claims it is impossible and also that Kellhus' experience of the divine is also madness.

Kellhus' fallibilty also indicates that causality is not absolute. It seems to break down under the influence of the divine. Yatwer's ritual hides the truth of Sorweel's face from him, Cnaiur is unpredictable and his insanity is described as a conduit to influence from outside agencies, Akka would never have been exiled if Kellhus could have kept such a valuable tool nearby etc etc

Aporetic magic is described as being based on metaphysical contradictions, and as proof that things can at once contradict and yet co-exist we have the chorae.

The entire conversation between Moe and Kellhus boils down to a similar disagreement to the one we are having here. Moe believes magic is a quantifiable system subject to the Dunyain principles, Kellhus' arguements that there is more - the divine aspect and the existence of an 'outside' - are seen as evidence of insanity.

The Inchies seem to have found magic and damnation a unique experience on Earwa (there is no need to develop lasers when one can use sorcery to the same effect, for example) suggesting a localized field where seperate laws of physics co-exist with a subset that is universal with the only apparent reason for such is that beings think differently here.

Consider. A physical effect including spontaneous generation of energy and affecting changes in matter states caused by saying something with a rigid and defined meaning whilst thinking a synonym that possesses nuanced meaning - that only a random few can perform - flies directly in the face of the consistent physics displayed everywhere else in Earwa - contradicting physical scientific analysis whilst maintaining an internal consistancy.

[Spring Bass]

In Bakkerworld, I think there is reason to think that everything, magic, the Outside falls within the realm of scientific inquiry. What comes before determines what comes after.

Generally speaking, yes.

However, if what comes before determines what comes after EVERYWHERE, even Outside, even in the realm of magic, then causality holds everywhere.

I don't think it necessarily does. The Anasurimbor Prophecy, in particular, seems to give Kellhus a great deal of grief. Moreover, what we've heard of the Outside (or at least the most popular view in-universe) is that the Outside is highly subjective to the whims of the Agencies that dwell there (the whole "pocket realms" bit).

Kel would enter the probability trance and come out saying "I have no frikkin' idea what these gods are going to do. They operate by different rules, if there are rules that govern their behavior at all, which I just cannot understand. They are *magical.*"

That may very well be the case - or rather, he ends up trying to project rationality and causation where there is none. Remember Moenghus and his description of the Outside? That definitely sounds like trying to see rationality where there is none.

The systems of Earwan magic that we have most knowledge of are manipulated using axioms of logic and theory indicating there is an overlap in the metaphysics, not in physics.

Aside from the Psukhe, of course.

The Inchies seem to have found magic and damnation a unique experience on Earwa (there is no need to develop lasers when one can use sorcery to the same effect, for example) suggesting a localized field where seperate laws of physics co-exist with a subset that is universal with the only apparent reason for such is that beings think differently here.

You know, this was one of the more interesting premises in the series that drew me in - "what if a starfaring, space-age civilization ended up stuck on a world where magic and religion are real?*" To his credit, Bakker doesn't show this as something simplistic and fun, but rather as something that would be very scary and frightening (particularly to the Inchoroi, monsters by our standards that they may be - what if you found out that you were irrevocably damned upon death to eternal torment?).

*I'm an atheist, but if you're religious, well, just assume for this case's sake.

[Kalbear]

For a start you are not including prophecy, which is magic. Kelhus struggles with this as it certainly breaks his understanding of causality, Moe claims it is impossible and also that Kellhus' experience of the divine is also madness.

I don't think this necessarily follows. If you can understand how causal loops work and that they work consistently, I think that this too can follow from scientific inquiry.

[Rhadamanth]

I thought I remembered something that the Inchies were always damned, not just on Earwa. I could be wrong but if not, maybe they were trying to find a part of the universe where they weren't damned. They were just unlucky enough to crash, so they had to find another way. So they try to create their own area outside damnation and God's judgement, which is the No-God's purpose.

I wonder if damnation is an integral part of the universe of Earwa and the only way to counteract it is to create your own universe. If God is the universe, then the No-God is a universe minus damnation. Damnation might be tied to morality and together they make up the keystone of the universe. The Inchies just replaced it with something else, something inferior. Kind of like how their creations can mimic everything about a person, except their soul. Maybe this is why the No-God doesn't know who or what he is. Maybe they left something important out and maybe Kellhus has figured out what that is and will fix it to make his own universe. Maybe... or maybe not but here's to crackpot theories. :cheers:

[Spring Bass]

I thought I remembered something that the Inchies were always damned, not just on Earwa. I could be wrong but if not, maybe they were trying to find a part of the universe where they weren't damned. They were just unlucky enough to crash, so they had to find another way. So they try to create their own area outside damnation and God's judgement, which is the No-God's purpose.

I don't think Bakker ever conclusively answered on this, but the impression I got from the books and discussions is that damnation is a characteristic solely in the Bakkerworld - something they (the Inchoroi) found out from the Topos created in the bow of the Incu-Holoinas from their crash (which killed all but 1 of 100 Inchoroi). Otherwise, they'd have to try and wipe out all other ensoulled life in the universe, which would be a pretty tall order considering its size.

It probably has to do with the whole "below a certain amount of souls in an area results in the Outside being closed off", which was the point of the No-God (to get the number of souls down to below that number). My guess is that if you put enough souls (enough "windows to the Outside", so to speak) in a certain area, the Outside starts to seep in.

[Mark Erikson]

Just finished the Judging Eye this morning, and I was actually really impressed - especially as I was largely unimpressed with the whole PoN trilogy (I finished them only because I had nothing else to read on a camping trip, otherwise I would have probably tossed them).

Anyway, I'm now of the opinion that Kellhus aims to use the Great Ordeal as leverage against the Inchorei to gain immortality, like the Nonmen. I remember him thinking that progeny were the path to immortality, but it seems, as of the Judging Eye, that none of his children have turned out the way he wanted. They're either lesser, sociopathic, mad or mutants. So, I suspect her now seeks to live forever himself, and the only known way of doing so is to have the Inchorei change him somehow, thus, he pressures them with a giant, unstoppable army.

[jurble]

Just had a debate with a friend: How does a self-moving soul work?

Basically, the argument was, all the decisions we make are the result of circumstances we cannot control. If we knew all the variables, we would find ourselves entirely deterministic. You can model human behavior with math, if you have the data, basically. A Dunyain can't possibly grasp all the variables when he enters an environment, it is all beyond his control. So instead he alters his environment. He masters his circumstances. And since he masters all his circumstances, the variables fall into places that he does know. And since he knows all that comes before, he can make a logical decision on what should happen next. But that's the thing, the Dunyain, even though he has mastered circumstance, and can make a true decision, he is still bound by determinism. He knows all the variables involved, but since the variables are predicated on deterministic behavior, his decision that follows is inherently deterministic - he is responding to his circumstance. Instead of an average joe like us though, he just happens to know everything that he predicates his decisions upon. So, is that a Self-Moving Soul? If you can make a decision based on all the data possible, all the probabilities possible - you're still responding to circumstance, circumstance that you have mastered, but still circumstance.

So how does a Dunyain actually achieve a true self-moving soul?

[Shryke]

I've been asking that question since the end of the first book.

I think the more important question is:

What would a self-moving soul WANT?

If all desire is the result of the darkness that comes before, once you are free of that, what do you desire? What do you want to do? Whence comes your direction, your purpose, you anything?

[jurble]

Perhaps the only way to truly make a self-moving soul, is to cut it off from all circumstance. A consciousness bound within a shell that cannot be observed or cannot be interacted with, a Schroedinger's Soul, if you will.

If that's really a self-moving soul, then the answer is pretty simply:

You want to know what you are.

But, IRL, if you actually had free-will, what the hell would you do? If all those deterministic factors meant nothing to you. You saw through all of them. But unlike a Dunyain, you didn't make a decision. Free-will would essentially be the non-exercising of thought.

[Spring Bass]

Anyway, I'm now of the opinion that Kellhus aims to use the Great Ordeal as leverage against the Inchorei to gain immortality, like the Nonmen. I remember him thinking that progeny were the path to immortality, but it seems, as of the Judging Eye, that none of his children have turned out the way he wanted. They're either lesser, sociopathic, mad or mutants. So, I suspect her now seeks to live forever himself, and the only known way of doing so is to have the Inchorei change him somehow, thus, he pressures them with a giant, unstoppable army.

Interesting theory. I still think he's just gone insane, though, and really does believe he is a Prophet (the "God of Gods" is another story).

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I've been asking that question since the end of the first book.

I think the more important question is:

What would a self-moving soul WANT?

If all desire is the result of the darkness that comes before, once you are free of that, what do you desire? What do you want to do? Whence comes your direction, your purpose, you anything?

Yes, it is very interesting question. One of those I wanted to ask Scott at Worldcon - only he didn't show up. Well, his answer would probably be RAFO anyway ;) I have always thought it would have Buddhist-like implications - that to be a self-moving soul means to be free of all desires, but I don't have any text based proofs for this, so it is only a crazy theory.