The Judging Eye VI

[unJon]

Perhaps the only way to truly make a self-moving soul, is to cut it off from all circumstance. A consciousness bound within a shell that cannot be observed or cannot be interacted with, a Schroedinger's Soul, if you will.

If that's really a self-moving soul, then the answer is pretty simply:

You want to know what you are.

Love it! You become the no-god and ask all those silly questions. :lol:

[Octavian West]

All the above theories on what a self moving soul is sound pretty accurate to me and reminds me of what thos two dudes off I Heart Huckabees were trying to do when they banged themselves in the head with that balloon. So the Dunyain just want to be like mold in petri dish, free of thought. I can dig it.

[lokisnow]

I still say the self-moving soul is akin to one of the things we see at the end of Neuropath--particularly when his sense of a conscious self is eradicated.

but in terms of insanity, I think Kellhus went insane when he spent a couple days marveling at the flowing water in a stream, and he hasn't been the same sense. The wasted time here led to him being unable to reach other humans before nearly dying of starvation. Presumably, Moe didn't have the problem of being attacked by the amazing variability of the stream.

So was the stream the first evidence we have of the Gods interfering with Kell? If all his decisions post-stream have been clouded by being dominated by the stream is anything he does trustworthy?

And crackpot theory time: Was Mek responsible for the stream attacking Kellhus?! What if it wasn't actually WATER in the stream, but was actually a stream of Mek's previously unseen water magic (perhaps Mek pisses water like Tywin shits gold?!) and was being used as bait to try to stop and ensnare Kellhus because Mek's previously unseen gifts of prophecy led him to realize that Kell would be dangerous and would be in that location and vulnerable at that time!

[Rhadamanth]

Kellhus got trapped by a stream and Moe got trapped by Sranc... and it is Kellhus that went insane? Maybe pain is just easier to deal with for Dunyain.

I see your crackpot theory and add this: Maybe someone sent Sranc to waylay any wandering Dunyain, they caught Moe, but some helpful or bored God decided to waylay Kellhus by presenting him with the magic stream (the most beautiful thing Kellhus ever saw) which delayed him long enough to miss the Sranc that were sent (by Mek...!?!).

On a side note... this emoticon cracks me up. :smileysex:

[Happy Ent]

I still say the self-moving soul is akin to one of the things we see at the end of Neuropath--particularly when his sense of a conscious self is eradicated.

I think the opposite is true. The Dunyain do not believe in the Argument. They do realise that the worldborn are indeed just stimulus–response machines, but it’s not a state they want to achieve Their whole mission is to master circumstance, instead of letting themselves be ruled by circumstance.

[lokisnow]

but, aren't our sense of self and identity ruled by stimulus response and in fact ruled by circumstance entirely? To be above it all and master circumstance would be to have your sense of self and identity completely eradicated.

[Curethan]

Not if you're a robot ninja like Kellhus. Talking to twigs and staring at streams are just David Carridine moments. In the movie you will hear the haunting sound of flutes at these points.

Becoming the selfmoving soul would be like achieving zen enlightenment for the Dunyain, you can't know the answer 'til u get there. Probly turn into a pillar of salt. Or dimension-hop here and steal Scott Bakker's identity and write the rest of the series, thus finally outwitting Mekeretrig and winning the multiverse.

[Nerdanel]

I wonder if a self-moving soul is possible and already in existence in Bakkerworld. Namely, if the God is a Platonian Prime Mover who is also unable to be moved by others, that could have interesting consequences. In particular, the God in this scenario is the force ultimately responsible for the sense of morality every created thing in the universe has, assuming he can manipulate event chains well enough not to make mistakes, and the God's own sense of morality... well, it could be anything since it isn't based on anything beyond himself. Like an argument of circular logic, the God's morality hangs in the air, supported by nothing more than the fact that it's the God's morality and therefore the foundation stone of the universe. In fact, the self-moving soul God would be utterly immune to sympathy and any potential benevolent actions would not have to have been inspired by anything resembling normal human thought processes.

We might yet end up with the God as the main villain...

[Curethan]

Would that be Inri? He ascended and dictated the pre-eminent version of God in Earwa AFAIK. Even before him the tusk sez non-men are anathema, to be exterminated, which indicates God is in man's image etc.

Yeh, yeh... that makes sense.

Crazy theory as follows: Sejenus became a self moving soul who is only interested in his own divinity, ascended up his own butt, so to speak. Then Mekky and the consult snagged him using aporetic sorcery, blindfolded him and popped him in the carapace thus causing the apocalypse because no babies can be born whilst the pre-eminent giant dick is thusly trapped (hey, remember this series is misogynistic - the male member is the important part!). This also explains why the aspects are the only outside agencies mucking with human affairs (obviously the solitary god is busy hiding from ceiling cat so he can masturbate safe from damnation - explaining why fanimry went down without him lifting a finger).

[lokisnow]

Would that be Inri? He ascended and dictated the pre-eminent version of God in Earwa AFAIK. Even before him the tusk sez non-men are anathema, to be exterminated, which indicates God is in man's image etc.

Yeh, yeh... that makes sense.

Crazy theory as follows: Sejenus became a self moving soul who is only interested in his own divinity, ascended up his own butt, so to speak. Then Mekky and the consult snagged him using aporetic sorcery, blindfolded him and popped him in the carapace thus causing the apocalypse because no babies can be born whilst the pre-eminent giant dick is thusly trapped (hey, remember this series is misogynistic - the male member is the important part!). This also explains why the aspects are the only outside agencies mucking with human affairs (obviously the solitary god is busy hiding from ceiling cat so he can masturbate safe from damnation - explaining why fanimry went down without him lifting a finger).

agreed, but where does Spider-Pig fit in? Can't forget him.

[Curethan]

agreed, but where does Spider-Pig fit in? Can't forget him.

Clearly that's Aurang's other synthese body. In the index, wasn't it?

[Nerdanel]

Would that be Inri? He ascended and dictated the pre-eminent version of God in Earwa AFAIK. Even before him the tusk sez non-men are anathema, to be exterminated, which indicates God is in man's image etc.

It does not follow. It could be that the God just doesn't like the Nonmen for his own reasons and told the humans to hate them.

Yeh, yeh... that makes sense.

I have no idea if that is meant as sarcastic or serious.

Crazy theory as follows: Sejenus became a self moving soul who is only interested in his own divinity, ascended up his own butt, so to speak. Then Mekky and the consult snagged him using aporetic sorcery, blindfolded him and popped him in the carapace thus causing the apocalypse because no babies can be born whilst the pre-eminent giant dick is thusly trapped (hey, remember this series is misogynistic - the male member is the important part!). This also explains why the aspects are the only outside agencies mucking with human affairs (obviously the solitary god is busy hiding from ceiling cat so he can masturbate safe from damnation - explaining why fanimry went down without him lifting a finger).

Sejenus would still be controlled by the Darkness that Comes Before since he cannot be the Prime Mover. Also, this scenario includes time travel which I still am not convinced is possible in Bakkerworld.

Here is another crackpot theory:

The God the Prime Mover created a whole lot of stuff according to his inscrutable whims, among those angels and humans. However, even the vast intelligence of the God was unable to comprehend the complex chains of interacting circumstances that followed, which led to some of his creations behaving in an unexpected and unwanted manner. The God saw that as "sin". Meanwhile some of the created beings had weird ideas about the God being the one in the wrong and that women were really just as good as men, etc., and refused to accept the God's opinion as a given.

Some of the angels ended up rebelling against the God and got banished/escaped to Eärwa for that. They were the ancestors of the Nonmen. However, the God still considered all the Nonmen damned, and thus they would go to Hell after their mortal life ended and their soul left Eärwa. The God also sometimes granted the "gift" of the Judging Eye on them, so that they wouldn't forget about their damnation. The Nonmen went on to build a great civilization, and seeing that they had prospered in their new environment altogether too much for his liking (i.e. "grown proud"), the God also told the humans through the shamans to war against the Nonmen. When that didn't amount to much, the God sent in some alien rape demons to spoil the Nonmen's day.

The God had made the Inchoroi all around dumber, less prone to philosophizing, and more incompetent than the Nonmen in order to minimize the chance that the Inchoroi did something unexpected. The God compensated for this by making the Inchoroi very numerous and equipping them with plentiful high technology. He didn't bother explaining them about metaphysics or his own existence since the optimal Darkness that Comes Before for his plan didn't include that. The God's miscalculation became apparent when the Inchoroi crashed instead of landing. Perhaps the pilot was raping or thinking about raping someone at the time and his attention was elsewhere. In any case, the Inchoroi were weakened drastically and their planned campaign of rape and overwhelming lasery terror never really got off the ground the way it had been meant to, although the Inchoroi did manage to fool the Nonmen with promises of immortality. The Nonmen couldn't resist the offer since they knew they were damned, and thus they all took the treatment rather than grow old and pass to the Outside.

Then at some point the Inchoroi found out that they were damned too. Perhaps they had been created by the God for damnation, or perhaps the God had a really low opinion of their failures. In any case, that was reason enough to eventually join forces with the No-God, the most powerful fallen angel (descendant) ever.

[Rhadamanth]

God as the main villain... that sounds like something Bakker would do, and the lying, cheating Kellhus is the savior. He has come to save us, not for God, but from God.

[Curethan]

I have no idea if that is meant as sarcastic or serious.

Just me posting whilst inebriated and getting carried away with my own silly ideas ;)

[lokisnow]

Just me posting whilst inebriated and getting carried away with my own silly ideas ;)

One should only post in a bakker thread when under the influence of something something.

[Acid Rainbow]

Maybe this is the wrong place to post this, but is there a thread where I can mock the flaws in Prince of Nothing? Becaus there's plenty of them, even though I like the books. With The Judging Eye, I think Bakker has improved his writing skills, since there's much less of that drawn-out philosophizing and preaching.

I think this one is the second-best book in Prince of Nothing, after book two.

[Kalbear]

I think it's perfectly fine to use this topic as a generic PoN topic for mocking. There is at least one PoN topic in the past, but it's pretty old.

[Acid Rainbow]

I guess my first problem with PON was that a friend got me to read it, but he over-hyped it so much that I got disappointed when I opened the first book. Bakker is much better at world-building and philosophy than he is at characters; I felt a bit detached from the characters throughout book one. Maybe it was the long, whiny monologues, maybe it was the unnecessary overuse of scientific terms in both the narrative and the dialogues.

I love GRRM's writing style because he makes me feel so strongly about the characters and empathize with them - I felt real outrage when Sansa was beaten by Joffrey's guards in ACOK, while I felt a vague boredom when those villagers chucked rocks at Esmenet in PON. Only in one scene did Bakker make me feel physically sick, and it had nothing to do with the characters.

[Happy Ent]

Maybe this is the wrong place to post this, but is there a thread where I can mock the flaws in Prince of Nothing?

I started a thread called If PoN were written by some other authors for parodies, but the format is maybe too specific for what you’re looking for. Sarcasm and parody is certainly welcome on this very thread as well.

[jurble]

Man, there are so many things I dislike on some level about PoN writing-wise, I just love the books because the story is batshit insane and the philosophy is awesome.