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The Judging Eye VI


Nerdanel

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Hello all,

I've been following this thread or rather series of threads with growing interest - for about half a year already - and thought, just having re-read Scott's excellent blogcritics interview, this might be a good time to chime in...

Now, of course I know all the TJE regulars have read that interview, but a quick search showed that the following statement has not been quoted yet, and I deem it quite significant to the ongoing discussion:

How can this essentialism be reconciled with the theory that belief shapes reality? I can't think of an obvious answer...

Well, this is going a bit off-topic, but I can't quite leave that uncommented on. Of course the speed of light passing through a medium varies depending on the medium, but the definition of the constant(!) c is the speed of light in vacuum, and the point is that it does not depend on the position of the observer, i.e. is not relative in Einstein's terminology. Actually, this is pretty much the foundation of the theory of special relativity...

Thanks for that. I don't think I have read that one, I'll be off to look it up.

And yeh, I know 'c' is a constant used as the basis for the mathematical special relativity. This isn't really off topic as it demonstrates the mutability of essential meaning, I guess. Being nit-picky, I've missed the intended meaning of Shryke's example and homed in on the literal. :unsure:

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Good catch, Helian.

Your suggestion re: the gods is almost the same as what I believe, it suggests that the beliefs of men have shaped the nature of these powers/gods via anthromorphisation.

That's not the same as what I said. I said that human in-universe anthropomorphize the Gods, which is not the same as saying they change the Gods via such anthropomorphization. It's just an interpretation on their part, part of the general human tendency to anthropomorphize our surrounding environment. Bakker even talks about this type of thing in this interview:

You could say the concretization of abstractions, whether metaphorical or not, is the hallmark of fiction period, not just epic fantasy. The thing I was most interested in concretizing in The Judging Eye was the abstract, ontological notion of a moral world. Because of our native tendency to anthropomorphize our environments, to interpret complex phenomena in psychological and social terms, our interpretative strategies are thoroughly skewed. This is simply a fact, though it rarely sees the light of day because we are pathologically jealous of our beliefs–to the point of killing one another if need be. (No matter how much lip service we pay to "critical thinking," the sad fact is that we really want no part of it–which is why we teach our children absolutely nothing about all the ways they’re doomed to dupe themselves). In the meantime, we see conspiracies everywhere we look–ghosts, gods, spies, corporations, governments... Pick your poison. No matter what our culture, we posit hidden agencies that have something planned for us, good or ill.

Humans are born drama queens. It’s always all about us.

This is the primary abstraction I try to concretize in The Judging Eye. What would it be like, what would it mean, to live in a world where everything had objective value, where everything was ranked and ordered, so that men actually were ‘spiritually superior’ than women, and so on.

However, for me the exchange clearly demonstrates that both Aurang and Kellhus completely understand and accept that in principle scripture can be rewritten by a prophet such as him, and that such a rewriting would indeed change the mechanism of damnation. It’s just that the the Inchoroi are too big a semantic challenge.

You think so? I thought Aurang was making a sarcastic joke when he suggested it - he probably picked up Kellhus changing the scripture (from when Kellhus changed the part on whores to seduce Esmenent) while he was possessing Esmenet. I think he was mocking the very idea that it could just be re-written, and if anyone would be desperate to find a way to do so, it would be the Inchoroi (as you yourself suggested, they probably tried it).

But something smaller, like damnation implied by sorcery, can indeed be rewritten (and locally so), which is what Fane did.

He re-wrote the scripture, but that's not the same thing as changing the metaphysics. I'd argue, too, that it's a bad example - it's not like Fane re-wrote the damnation on "typical" sorcery (the "remembering the God's voice" type in Anagogic and Gnostic sorcery), which was the sorcery that the Tusk Prophets would have known about. Fane sanctified the Psukhe, which is very different from typical sorcery - maybe he discovered a metaphysically non-damning form of sorcery.

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Okay, so. Why is the 'outside' found in the human soul? How is it that sorcery is based upon semantic interpretation and epistimology? Why aren't animals damned/holy?
Animals are holy and/or damned; Mimara sees this clearly in TJE, talking about how serpents are better and...pigs? are worse. Some animal is rated lower. To TJE, everything has an order.

HE, I took Aurang's comment to be sarcastic too. "Oh, you could rewrite things, prophet" - with the prophet italicized - to me means he knows as well as anyone that Kellhus is a false prophet, and him rewriting anything wouldn't do a damn thing no matter what. And that the Inchoroi aren't damned because of the Tusk. I mean it even says 'with breathless sarcasm'. How is this unclear?

The whole conceit is that beliefs are real and can be used like tools. Kellhus can quantify and measure them. Sorcery blows shit up with them. And yet they change, they are localized, they are varied, they even possess a nascent self awareness in some cases. They are intimately and absolutely related to the world, the soul and the outside in Earwa, whereas in our world they are merely abstract - Nietsche didn't really kill god.

I don't think that follows either. If beliefs are real, why are only some humans and nonmen able to effect change in the world with said 'beliefs'? And heck, sorcerers don't use beliefs; they use effectively science. They have repeated, reproducible actions that follow from existing principles and they do so in the same way. That's not belief; that's science. If Akka didn't believe he could cast spells, that wouldn't stop others from doing so, nor would it stop others from them working on Akka.

I agree that the Soul has some relation to the Outside. What I don't believe is that this is in any way changeable by those who remain on Earwa. I don't think that just because everyone believes it, sorcerers aren't going to continue to fuck up their souls. I don't think that serpents are going to be less or pigs more if Kellhus just writes it. And I certainly don't think that it follows that just because there's a connection between souls and the Outside means that one causes the other; correlation doesn't imply causation.

TJE showed that Yatwer is active in the world; the outside definitely effects change in the material plane. She moves to destroy Kellhus, a man who manipulates belief to effect massive, sudden change in the social systems of the world. Why the hell would this be if it isn't possible? His objective is to destroy the consult and save Yatwer's followers.

Right; that's never been denied by anyone. The question is whether or not the converse is true - that the Outside can be modified by belief from Earwa. I don't think so; I think Yatwer would remain Yatwer one way or another. Perhaps made more powerful by believers, but the central essence of how she could be made more powerful: that's a rule set for all Earwa/Outside transactions, and it's as immutable as a physical constant.

In Earwa, however, essentialism is true, words have pure meanings, significations unpolluted by the contextual vicissitudes of circumstance. The idea is that if you can speak from the all-seeing perspective of the God, then you can literally rewrite the world. [...]
I took this to mean how sorcery works more than anything.
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Okay, so. Why is the 'outside' found in the human soul? How is it that sorcery is based upon semantic interpretation and epistimology? Why aren't animals damned/holy? Did you notice the world changing holy war in PoN (which turned out to be an instrument of the thousandfold thought)? What is the handle Kellhus uses for manipulation?

The whole conceit is that beliefs are real and can be used like tools. Kellhus can quantify and measure them. Sorcery blows shit up with them. And yet they change, they are localized, they are varied, they even possess a nascent self awareness in some cases. They are intimately and absolutely related to the world, the soul and the outside in Earwa, whereas in our world they are merely abstract - Nietsche didn't really kill god.

No, this is where you make your fundamental mistake.

1) The Holy War and Kellhus' taking over there of is based on belief, but nowhere is it said that this belief CHANGES the metaphysical workings of the world.

Moenghus uses the example from Nilnamesh, and the important part of this whole explanation is that the beliefs that "become real" are LIES. And that they only "become real" in the sense that people believe them.

Hell, look at the definition of "The Outside" in the Glossary of TTT:

"The World, he argues, is simply the point of maximal objectivity, the plane where the desires of individual souls are helpless before circumstance."

Under Ajencian philosophy, the World is DEFINE as the place where the belief of those present has no effect.

2) Sorcery is not changed by belief. That's distinctly NOT the way it works.

To use that quote from Scott:

The idea is that if you can speak from the all-seeing perspective of the God, then you can literally rewrite the world

The important point her is to do this, you must "speak from the all-seeing perspective of the God".

A normal man can't do it because a normal man can't change the rules of the world.

Only God can.

Or men who can speak from God's position.

Which brings us to an interesting idea of what a Prophet IS.

Is a Prophet then someone who speaks perfectly from the perspective of the God? Someone who can rewrite the rules of creation?

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No, this is where you make your fundamental mistake.

1) The Holy War and Kellhus' taking over there of is based on belief, but nowhere is it said that this belief CHANGES the metaphysical workings of the world.

Moenghus uses the example from Nilnamesh, and the important part of this whole explanation is that the beliefs that "become real" are LIES. And that they only "become real" in the sense that people believe them.

I disagree. The lies become real because people make them real. The lie has become truth because it was acted out. This is very clear; Moe tells Kellhus that people take pains to act out the lies of others and make them real, and the one with the most success or the most compelling lie or whatever is then called "Breath that is Ground," which can easily be interpreted to mean that his lie has created a new reality.

Hell, look at the definition of "The Outside" in the Glossary of TTT:

"The World, he argues, is simply the point of maximal objectivity, the plane where the desires of individual souls are helpless before circumstance."

Under Ajencian philosophy, the World is DEFINE as the place where the belief of those present has no effect.

That's not the issue. The question is whether or not the actions or beliefs of mortals in the "Inside" can affect the Outside, not whether the people on the Inside can affect the Inside.

As I understand it, damnation occurs only after a soul enters the Outside. Under Ajencian philosophy, that would mean that in some way it is now in a more mutable world. I conjecture that changing beliefs can in fact change metaphysical reality vis-a-vis damnation, but perhaps only after enough believers have been sent to the Outside, where their beliefs can effect a change. If Kellhus knows this, then perhaps he intends for the Great Ordeal to fail, so that the vast number of souls who believe in his religious ideas would be able to change the reality.

An interesting anecdote to the above would be that, if true, it would mean that Fane himself would likely still be damned, while a lowly Tertiary killed in Shimeh would not.

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I disagree. The lies become real because people make them real. The lie has become truth because it was acted out. This is very clear; Moe tells Kellhus that people take pains to act out the lies of others and make them real, and the one with the most success or the most compelling lie or whatever is then called "Breath that is Ground," which can easily be interpreted to mean that his lie has created a new reality.

No, it hasn't.

You really need to reread that section of TTT, because it's fairly explicit. These ideas (like Inrithism and Fanimry) are called "lies" repeatedly.

Moenghus says "Beliefs beget action" and this is the whole purpose for the Thousand-Fold Thought. But nowhere is it stated that said belief effects reality.

And, in fact, the very next thing Kellhus says is: "And the Truth? What of that?".

And Moenghus replies "There is no truth for the worldborn."

"And the Truth?" As is "Ok, and now let's talk about the REAL rules of the world".

Because Beliefs beget action, but they do not beget a change in the nature of reality. There is no evidence at all for that.

That's not the issue. The question is whether or not the actions or beliefs of mortals in the "Inside" can affect the Outside, not whether the people on the Inside can affect the Inside.

As I understand it, damnation occurs only after a soul enters the Outside. Under Ajencian philosophy, that would mean that in some way it is now in a more mutable world. I conjecture that changing beliefs can in fact change metaphysical reality vis-a-vis damnation, but perhaps only after enough believers have been sent to the Outside, where their beliefs can effect a change. If Kellhus knows this, then perhaps he intends for the Great Ordeal to fail, so that the vast number of souls who believe in his religious ideas would be able to change the reality.

An interesting anecdote to the above would be that, if true, it would mean that Fane himself would likely still be damned, while a lowly Tertiary killed in Shimeh would not.

Now that, on the other hand, might be possible given what we know so far.

But perhaps not quite as you are thinking.

I was going to bring this up in a second anyway, since reading further into the entry on The Outside:

The many regions of the Outside then represent diminishing levels of objectivity, where circumstances yield more and more to desire. This, he claims, is what defines the "spheres of dominance" of Gods and demons. As he writes, "the greater will commands". The more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub-realities" that conform to their desires. This is what makes piety and devotion so important: the more favour an individual can secure in the Outside (primarily through the worship of Gods and the honouring of ancestors), the greater the change of finding bliss rather then torment in the afterlife.

What this tells me is that while the Outside is mutable, it's mutable to the beings that live their.

"the greater will commands" Maybe Kellhus is trying to form a "greater will" to create a new sub-reality?

But this, again, would only seem to effect the Outside. The time after death.

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It also presupposes that Ajenics was right and knew how things worked. And there's plenty of evidence that this isn't the case; Kellhus effortlessly picks apart his logic fairly quickly.

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True.

We don't actually know much concrete about the Outside.

Moenghus has one theory, Ajencis another and Kellhus has (or very likely has) a 3rd one.

And Kellhus' is probably the closest to correct.

I think whatever is going to happen in the series will have something to do with the very nature of the Outside, since TJE definitely hinted at things about it (and Kellhus) but says nothing on the subject.

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We'll probably learn more (a lot more), but Bakker has more or less consistently said that he doesn't want to get too revealing about the nature of the Outside - he likes his metaphysics to be vague and often inconsistent. Of course, I wonder how well that will hold up, considering how much more "Outside" activities we've seen (both on the "Yatwer" end as well as with Mimara's Judging Eye).

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Thanks for clearing that up.

Anytime.

Well, this is going a bit off-topic, but I can't quite leave that uncommented on. Of course the speed of light passing through a medium varies depending on the medium, but the definition of the constant(!) c is the speed of light in vacuum, and the point is that it does not depend on the position of the observer, i.e. is not relative in Einstein's terminology. Actually, this is pretty much the foundation of the theory of special relativity...

I guess I should continue "clear that up" if it's going to continue as an analogy. Light always travels at c. Light traveling through a medium appears, macroscopically, to slow down because the particles of the medium absorb the phontons and radiate the photons. So it isn't just 'traveling' it is traveling between particles at c and then taking rest stops along the way. Even wikipedia gets it right (never a given):

When light enters materials, its energy is absorbed. In the case of transparent materials, this energy is quickly re-radiated. However, this absorption and re-radiation introduces a delay. As light propagates through dielectric material it undergoes continuous absorption and re-radiation. Therefore the speed of light in a medium is said to be less than c, which should be read as the speed of energy propagation at the macroscopic level. At an atomic level, electromagnetic waves always travel at c in the empty space between atoms. Two factors influence this slowing: stronger absorption leading to shorter path length between each re-radiation cycle, and longer delays. The slowing is therefore the result of these two factors.

[/threadjack]

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So... in their effort to correct the deficiencies of the soul, to make it independent of what has come before, the Dunyain have created a prophet able to perhaps, speak in the all knowing way of God and thus ,perhaps, be able to change some things about the world. Would Kellhus be an aberration or a repeatable phenomenon for the Dunyain?

More weird ideas:

I wonder if the fact that women are less than men extends to their souls as well. If the Dunyain were trying to create a perfect soul, a female soul would always be imperfect and less than a male soul so would never be able to match males. Maybe this is why we don't see female Dunyain. I wonder if there is a dark room in the Thousand Thousand Halls in Ishual where the females are kept as unpolluted of the world and reality as possible to negate their negative effects on souls, like the axlotl tanks from Dune, I guess. There is an unformed idea in my head with all this stuff but I can't seem to make it take shape.

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So... in their effort to correct the deficiencies of the soul, to make it independent of what has come before, the Dunyain have created a prophet able to perhaps, speak in the all knowing way of God and thus ,perhaps, be able to change some things about the world. Would Kellhus be an aberration or a repeatable phenomenon for the Dunyain?

More weird ideas:

I wonder if the fact that women are less than men extends to their souls as well. If the Dunyain were trying to create a perfect soul, a female soul would always be imperfect and less than a male soul so would never be able to match males. Maybe this is why we don't see female Dunyain. I wonder if there is a dark room in the Thousand Thousand Halls in Ishual where the females are kept as unpolluted of the world and reality as possible to negate their negative effects on souls, like the axlotl tanks from Dune, I guess. There is an unformed idea in my head with all this stuff but I can't seem to make it take shape.

Kell is something of a prodigy amongst the Dunyain according to Bakker, iirc.

Kell thinks that the whole women are less than men thing is foolishness, merely a result of acculturation and Earwan refusal to educate women (he begins to teach Esme to read), but gradually observes it to be something objectively true as he gains more experience with the worldborn. I would say the Dunyain don't use all their women as axlotl tanks, but no guaranteeing they don't use some with promising genetic strands (even if one generation was a disappointment) as axlotl tanks.

***

Happy Ent quoted from Chapter 14 of TTT upthread. I went back and read the exchange and then flipped through and read the rest of the chapter. The chapter headings are fascinating in context of the conversation with the Inchoroi and the ongoing conversation here about reality, belief & the outside. Likewise, Akka-as-Seswatha is in the Incu Holonias with Nau Cayuti and they discuss the origins of the Inchoroi, the Incu Holonias, and the horrors of them (we get another taste of topos here, pre TJE). We see that skin spies naturally have three limbed appendages (presuming the Inchoroi also do in their native form, considering bashrag and Kellhus' observation that their creations are made in their own image). Then, in the Akka section that plays out at the end we see Akka think of how much Kellhus resembles Nau Cayuti, and in a Akka-as-Seswatha dream earlier in the chapter Nau Cayuti and grabbed A-a-S by the throat and lifted him in the air. Kellhus does the same to Akka, and also echoes other Akka memories of his father. This makes me think that if we saw this from Kellhus' perspective we would see him pulling the "I can remind you of Inrau" trick except with both Nau Cayuti and Akka's father. Partially Kellhus does so much here, it doesn't really work for Akka and he rebels against Kellhus getting away with it--but that made me think of something else! Kellhus' primary objective in imitating Nau Cayuti was to indirectly influence the homonculus of Seswatha in Akka. sacrificing Akka's belief in him in order to manipulate and persuade Seswatha would be a bargain more than worth it, and would explain why Kellhus seems so... obvious and out of key when seen from Akka's perspective. I think that particular performance was meant for Seswatha. Kell was conditioning the ground.

so, the whole point of that paragraph is that while the encounter with the Inchoroi is very rich, there is a lot of fascinating context and themes developed within that chapter alone that inform each other and enhance our understanding of the Inchoroi and breed more questions about them.

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I guess I should continue "clear that up" if it's going to continue as an analogy. Light always travels at c. Light traveling through a medium appears, macroscopically, to slow down because the particles of the medium absorb the phontons and radiate the photons. So it isn't just 'traveling' it is traveling between particles at c and then taking rest stops along the way.

Sure, but that sort of follows if you just try to picture matter at an atomic level (okay, and if you know what photons are)...which not everyone does, I suppose. Anyway, the point was that c is not relative - and I don't think it serves as an effective analogy, so back to topic ;D

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We're plodding along well-trodden ground, but since questions of belief vs. truth are exactly what Bakker wants us to think about, I think it's worth it.

(However, I don't think any of us will ever be proven "right" by the text. All we can do is to ape the convictions of some of Eärwa's denizens.)

"The World, he argues, is simply the point of maximal objectivity, the plane where the desires of individual souls are helpless before circumstance."

Under Ajencian philosophy, the World is DEFINE as the place where the belief of those present has no effect.

1. I, of course, disagree with your interpretation. I think the operative word in the Ajencis paraphrase is individual. Nothing is said about the desires of collective souls, which is exactly what interest us here.

1b. Even then, the individual soul of a sorcerer is able to give circumstance a hell of an ass-whupping.

2. As WrathOfMe point out, neither of this is relevant re damnation, because damnation is something that happens very much in the Outside. If Ajencis is to be believed, circumstance in the Outside very much yields to the entities that inhabit it. I think we can further posit that souls inhabit the outside. It would follow that souls can shape the Outside, which is exactly what we need to explain how Eärwan belief influences the mechanics of damnation.

2-supplementary. This leads me to another thought experiment I had, namely what makes humans so powerful compared to Nonmen (or Elves, in Tolkien's universe): they die more often. Thereby, the Outside more quickly synchronises with the convictions of Men than with the convictions of Nonmen (even though Nonmen might be more numerous, or have "more important souls"). Human beliefs thereby become more important for Outsidish questions such as damnation, which is a distinct advantage (for the species, not the individual).

2-supplementary-supplementary. It would indeed follow that the most effective way to change the Outside would be to have a few million souls believe as You do, and then have them all killed. Could be what Kellhus is up to.

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Don't the Zeumi believe that their ancestors sort of shape their reality (or is it another culture?) or something like that, which is why they revere their ancestors and keep meticulous records? Makes me wonder why the schools don't do something similar.

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*snip*

I took this to mean how sorcery works more than anything.

That last sentence, yes. But there is a bit more to it: If words have essential, immutable meanings and the physical world can at least theoretically be rewritten using those words - then those words must be the syntax of the metaphysical laws of the world, or at the very least intrinsically connected to them. Thus, if said laws were affected by mass belief, how could sorcery even work the same way in Inrithi and Fanim lands (which it ostensibly does)?

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Don't the Zeumi believe that their ancestors sort of shape their reality (or is it another culture?) or something like that, which is why they revere their ancestors and keep meticulous records? Makes me wonder why the schools don't do something similar.

Who are the Zeumi? Have we met any Zeumi characters in the books?

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Who are the Zeumi? Have we met any Zeumi characters in the books?

There's Prince Obo-what's-his-name from Zeum in TJE, which (if you look on the map) is that huge area on the continent's west coast way the hell away from the Three Seas.

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