The Judging Eye VI

[lokisnow]

the real question is, even without the potential sorcerers, how quickly will they all immediately start facially imitating Akka's beloved student, Inrau? I say it takes the Dunyain 2.876 seconds to analyze Akka, read his face about memories of Inrau and immediately adjust their faces into puppydog Inrau-eyes and thus force Akka into not zapping all of them into oblivion.

[Shryke]

the real question is, even without the potential sorcerers, how quickly will they all immediately start facially imitating Akka's beloved student, Inrau? I say it takes the Dunyain 2.876 seconds to analyze Akka, read his face about memories of Inrau and immediately adjust their faces into puppydog Inrau-eyes and thus force Akka into not zapping all of them into oblivion.

Kellhus didn't have to read Akka's face to figure out the type of person Inrau was. He just had to do trial-and-error. Akka reacts more favorably when I do X, so do X more. And based on how he reacts favorably and what he's told Kellhus of his past, Kellhus can make the obvious assumption that what he's doing is imitating the behaviors that remind Akka of Inrau.

[jurble]

same trick fortune teller use, but with deeper insight

[Borque]

They were all potential sorcerers. They didn't have the Mark though.

Actually I don't think we know that those who recieved Moënghus's dreams were of the Few.

They could very well have been, for example, all those Moënghus knew personally. Or all those who slept in a certain dormitory in Ishuäl. Or some other group, depending on how the Cish dream sending actually works.

[Acid Rainbow]

Actually I don't think we know that those who recieved Moënghus's dreams were of the Few.

They could very well have been, for example, all those Moënghus knew personally. Or all those who slept in a certain dormitory in Ishuäl. Or some other group, depending on how the Cish dream sending actually works.

Many of the Dunyain probably belong to the Few - it's just that they never learn sorcery, since the Dunyain are against all "superstitions" like sorcery and religion. I remember how Bakker answered someone who asked him what happened to the Few if they were Scylvendi, and he answered that they would be trained as warriors just like everyone else.

I know I'm derailing the topic, but did anyone else find Bakker's worldbuilding to be awesome?

I especially like how he wrote the Scylvendi. It's so cool that they are dedicated to war to the point that they have songs and stories about every division in the Nansur army, so they know exactly what they'll be up against. Imagine if GRRM wrote the Dothraki the same way, it would've been amazing if they just analyzed the Westerosi houses in the same way Cnaiur does with the Fanim.

I also like how the Ancient North is not depicted as a marvellous "lost advanced civilization", like the Roman Empire. In TJE Celmomas comes across as a kind of barbarian chieftain, and Bakker gives us those northern vibes by using words like "mead-brothers" and "boonsmen".

Any more thoughts on the worldbuilding?

[Borque]

Many of the Dunyain probably belong to the Few

Yes, indeed. My point was only that those who dreamed about Moënghus didn't necessarily have to be of the Few.

[jurble]

I also like how the Ancient North is not depicted as a marvellous "lost advanced civilization", like the Roman Empire. In TJE Celmomas comes across as a kind of barbarian chieftain, and Bakker gives us those northern vibes by using words like "mead-brothers" and "boonsmen".

Any more thoughts on the worldbuilding?

Ancient North is supposed to look like ancient Mesopotamia, so of course it isn't very advanced. Their only advantage over modern times was gnostic magic.

[Acid Rainbow]

From the TJE flashbacks of Kunuri (sp?), I definitely got more of a "Viking" vibe than a "Mesopotamia" one.

And judging from the freezing winter Kellhus wandered through in the first book's prologue, I can't really see a Middle-East civilization thriving there.

Other cultures in Bakker-verse have easier real-world parallels, like the Nansur and the Byzantines or the Kianene and the Arabs.

What do the Conriyans and Ainoni have similarities to?

[Yoadm]

From the TJE flashbacks of Kunuri (sp?), I definitely got more of a "Viking" vibe than a "Mesopotamia" one.

And judging from the freezing winter Kellhus wandered through in the first book's prologue, I can't really see a Middle-East civilization thriving there.

Other cultures in Bakker-verse have easier real-world parallels, like the Nansur and the Byzantines or the Kianene and the Arabs.

What do the Conriyans and Ainoni have similarities to?

Middle-Ages European kingdoms. France, Spain, etc..

[Acid Rainbow]

I thought that Proyas' faction (was that Conriya?) more or less correspond the French, who made up the bulk of the Crusades. The Tydonni have similarities to the Germans. I don't know about the Thunyeri. To make a bad comparison with ASOIAF, the Thunyeri seem to be the Gregor Cleganes and Bloody Mummers of the Holy War.

[Acid Rainbow]

double post

[Yoadm]

I thought that Proyas' faction (was that Conriya?) more or less correspond the French, who made up the bulk of the Crusades. The Tydonni have similarities to the Germans. I don't know about the Thunyeri. To make a bad comparison with ASOIAF, the Thunyeri seem to be the Gregor Cleganes and Bloody Mummers of the Holy War.

I allways saw the Thunyeri as the Bakker version of the relatively barbarous vikings, who have kept to their old ways years after converting to Christianity.

[jurble]

From the TJE flashbacks of Kunuri (sp?), I definitely got more of a "Viking" vibe than a "Mesopotamia" one.

And judging from the freezing winter Kellhus wandered through in the first book's prologue, I can't really see a Middle-East civilization thriving there.

Just because it happens to be up north don't mean it ain't supposed to be Mesopotamia. Maybe what with the reference to mead, it seems more Viking-ish, but from all the other info, their society was based on riverine agriculture, kinship was still a major factor societal organization (tribes and clans (("Clan Anasurimbor")) co-existing with the state), the urban centers with libraries, bondsmen, the religion parallels the temple system of ancient mesopotamia, and the way Atyersus was described, it resembles ancient Mesopotamian architecture. The only Viking-ness comes from the fact that they're blond and blue eyed, being Norsirai, and the word "mead-hall". The names are also supposed to look like Sumerian and Akkadian names.

Like, it's Mesopotamia, but in the north! It's not exactly the same thing, like Bakker did with Kian and Arabs. Even Nansur is fairly different than Byzantium.

[Acid Rainbow]

No, I got a lot of "Vikingness" vibes from the Seswatha flashbacks of Celmomas.

It's the descriptions of long-bearded warriors, of Celmomas' wolf head ornaments, of the bards and the mead-drinking, of the hall with animal totems and hanging deer from the hunt. And the Norsirai of the PON era are pretty much the Vikings of the Three Seas.

Of course, there's Mesopotamia parallels as well, such as the names.

[jurble]

'tis your Swedish bias

[Acid Rainbow]

'tis your Swedish bias

Oh definitely, on a subconscious level. :)

I like it how we've derailed the thread into an argument over an imaginary culture.

[Rhadamanth]

As opposed to an argument over theories about what can and can't happen in an imaginary world? I don't think you've strayed too far.

[Nerdanel]

Except Moenghus states he's better at that kind of stuff (the face thing) than other Cishaurim, since it requires brains not emotion.

Kellhus is the one who says that, and he's speculating on very little information.

Moreover, Skauras' face isn't lifelike, iirc, he looked sorta like Princess Leia did in the R2D2 hologram. It was clearly his face, but it was floating infront of Mallahet, and it was translucent.

It was superimposed on Mallahet's face. As for the translucency, there are three possible counters, all of which may apply:

- The Cishaurim don't want to show their enemies what they really can do. There's no point in tipping their hand and making Skauras solid-looking when translucent will do. Imagine what would happen if the word got out that the Cishaurim could hide their distinctive eyelessness!

- We know that distance affects the effort required to do something with magic. While Skauras was in Shigek far from Momenn, Moënghus could have been hiding relatively near his double, minimizing the effort required to project his face.

- Moënghus's face was a bit translucent, but the meeting place was carefully chosen to be very badly lit, so that even Kellhus couldn't notice the translucency.

The other Cishaurim probably can't even manage that, for them the Psukhe is a blunt instrument.

We know that the other Cishaurim can do common things like walk on the air, shield themselves from attacks, and make themselves invisible/undetected. They use Psukhe as a blunt instrument when attacking in battle, but that's not very different from using a firebreathing dragonhead as a blunt instrument.

Are you saying that Moënghus was the first Cishaurim ever to discover sending dreams?

Moenghus is weak as hell magically. He did not know how the Psukhe worked before he jumped into it. His calculations were wrong, and he effectively crippled himself.

You are taking Kellhus's speculations as a given here again. Kellhus is not omniscient, and his father is immune to Kellhus's face reading.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Kellhus is the one who says that, and he's speculating on very little information.

Everything in the series points to Kellhus being correct. Most significantly, given the Dunyain's obvious ability to control people, if Moenghus was actually as strong as you claim, he would be the Heresiarch of the Cishaurim and not a lower rank. The only reason why he was not able to attain the highest ranks was his weakness in the Water.

It was superimposed on Mallahet's face. As for the translucency, there are three possible counters, all of which may apply:

- The Cishaurim don't want to show their enemies what they really can do. There's no point in tipping their hand and making Skauras solid-looking when translucent will do. Imagine what would happen if the word got out that the Cishaurim could hide their distinctive eyelessness!

- We know that distance affects the effort required to do something with magic. While Skauras was in Shigek far from Momenn, Moënghus could have been hiding relatively near his double, minimizing the effort required to project his face.

- Moënghus's face was a bit translucent, but the meeting place was carefully chosen to be very badly lit, so that even Kellhus couldn't notice the translucency.

Kellhus would have been able to hear if someone else were in the chamber, for one thing. More importantly, you are committing the crime which you so damningly attributed to Kellhus above - you are speculating with very little information.

And why would the Cishaurim care to hide the fact that they can disguise their eyelessness? At best this ability is only mildly useful compared to known abilities such as invisibility or whatever allowed them to sneak into the Spires compound.

We know that the other Cishaurim can do common things like walk on the air, shield themselves from attacks, and make themselves invisible/undetected. They use Psukhe as a blunt instrument when attacking in battle, but that's not very different from using a firebreathing dragonhead as a blunt instrument.

Are you saying that Moënghus was the first Cishaurim ever to discover sending dreams?

No, but it seems that he may be the best at it, since he was the one to channel Skaurus' face. This far-casting or whatever you want to call it seems inherently similar to sending dreams.

Here's a question - if Moe is so strong, then why don't we ever see him exercise this power? Why is he not the leader of the Cishaurim, as I mentioned earlier? Why didn't he attempt to kill Kellhus when he decided that he'd been broken by the landscape outside of Ishual? Etc. Your idea raises too many questions and answers none of them.

You are taking Kellhus's speculations as a given here again. Kellhus is not omniscient, and his father is immune to Kellhus's face reading.

Kellhus spent thirty years of his life surrounded by Dunyain. I'd say it's fair to say that he has a bit of experience dealing with Dunyain blank faces, and would be able to tell if his father was being disingenuous.

[lokisnow]

What's more, one of the first things Moe points out is that Kell was able to cloak himself as a Prince of Nothing and ascend virtually unhindered, Moe wanted to ascend and intended to use sorcery to allow him to do so. But Moe had his eyes put out and ran into a dead end with the water sorcery. Having ran into so much trouble ascending he labored for years to condition the ground for a Dunyain to ascend after realizing the Consult had to be stopped. He discovered the skin spies by hearing, The Cis attacked the Spires and Moe tortured them for years while gradually developing TTT. He built on the Cis paranoia and the Spires response to create a suitably chaotic global situation that would allow a Prince of Nothing to ascend to a position of real authority without being stymied by Nobles with assets halfway through his ascent.

So Moe's position not in power is indicative of not his secret power but of the miscalculation and dead end he landed himself in. He fell victim to the circumstance of the feudal social structure.