The Judging Eye VI

[Darzin]

I think the Ark is described as a dead womb at some piont to.

I wonder if when it was alive it was intellgent? I also wonder how fucked up something has to be to give birth to the Inchoroi. I certainly hope we get a little more info on the Ark, and it seems we will once the great ordeal gets there. Although I'm not sure they'l find much I have a feeling that they'l find it empty and occupy it ala Napoleon and then when winter hits everything collapses.

[lokisnow]

In TTT, there's one of Akka's Dreams in which he/Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti are climbing up through the Incu-Holoinas, and Seswatha mentions that he'd heard that the halls of the Ark might have been lined with flesh and veins at first - he says the ship is its "bones".

No idea whether that's true or not. It might not be surprising in the Inchoroi's case - so much of their science touches on biological stuff.

as I mentioned a page ago, this dream is in the same chapter as Kellhus' confrontation with Aurang, this dream directly brackets the information we learn from Kellhus' interview. Afterwards Kellhus imitates Nau Cayuti, though Akka doesn't realize that's what he's doing. I theorize he does this to manipulate Seswatha-in-Akka as part of his plan to retrieve the gnosis from Seswatha.

I think there's something important there in terms of how Aurang describes that they were creatures created purely for pleasure and the tantalizing information that the ark was a living thing, may have been a womb, and may be the inchoroi's creator/parents/god. Which gave rise to a random question, are the inchoroi Metroids?

Or perhaps there is more to Ent's theory than we have previously given credence?

[Acid Rainbow]

But the Inchoroi weren't created just for pleasure.

It describes them in TTT, when Esmenet is being possessed:

"A race who had silenced all pity, all compassion, to be able to better savor their reckless lusts"

I also think that Golgottorath is their mother, literally. They refer to themselves as "Orphans", and all Inchoroi seem to be male. I'm also sure they re-made themselves into rape-monsters, because it makes no sense that an alien species would have dicks compatible with human women. It says somewhere that they "birthed mouths" in order to speak, so they must have bio-engineered themselves to grow genitals as well.

[Tears of Lys]

But the Inchoroi weren't created just for pleasure.

It describes them in TTT, when Esmenet is being possessed:

"A race who had silenced all pity, all compassion, to be able to better savor their reckless lusts"

I also think that Golgottorath is their mother, literally. They refer to themselves as "Orphans", and all Inchoroi seem to be male. I'm also sure they re-made themselves into rape-monsters, because it makes no sense that an alien species would have dicks compatible with human women. It says somewhere that they "birthed mouths" in order to speak, so they must have bio-engineered themselves to grow genitals as well.

Don't leave the men out of the action, now! They're equal opportunity ravagers. Men, women, children, wounds... what have you.

All-around attractive fellas.

[Amun]

Anybody have any idea why Mimara's point of view is written in the present tense while all of the others are in the past tense? Maybe it means nothing to the actual plot and is only stylistic, but Bakker hasn't done this with any of the characters in the Prince of Nothing. It seems like it should mean something else than he just decided it would be interesting to write in the presesnt tense this with one character after four books of story.

Personally, I think it means something, but I would be lying if I said I knew. Or I could be completely wrong. Either way, I'm throwing it out there.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Anybody have any idea why Mimara's point of view is written in the present tense while all of the others are in the past tense? Maybe it means nothing to the actual plot and is only stylistic, but Bakker hasn't done this with any of the characters in the Prince of Nothing. It seems like it should mean something else than he just decided it would be interesting to write in the presesnt tense this with one character after four books of story.

Personally, I think it means something, but I would be lying if I said I knew. Or I could be completely wrong. Either way, I'm throwing it out there.

It's a subtle hint that she is, in fact, the God, who exists in the Outside and is therefore outside (har!) of time itself. Thus, she sees all things, even past actions, as things occurring in the present.

ETA: Ok, so that was off the cuff and not serious, but it's given rise to a question.

What is the Judging Eye? I don't recall if it's mentioned, but here's my take:

The Judging Eye is a different kind of memory of the God, right? Just as sorcerous ability is the ability to recall the God's voice, TJE is the ability to recall his judgment, or his way of seeing the world, or some such. Thoughts?

(BTW - for all I remember, this may be explicitly confirmed or denied in the text. Mea culpa.)

[Spring Bass]

"A race who had silenced all pity, all compassion, to be able to better savor their reckless lusts"

Yeah, the impression I got was that they're a race that basically lives and dies by sexual pleasure (of any variety, particularly rape).

Of course, keep in mind that this was Seswatha relating something he'd heard. The whole "Children of the Ark" and "Orphans" bit might just be a figure of speak, referring to the possibility that the Inchoroi were traveling on it for a long time, long enough to forget many things (I'm trying to find it, but I remember there was a quote from Bakker along the lines of the Inchoroi having already lost much of their technology even before the Ark crashed on to the Bakkerworld).

[Kalbear]

The Judging Eye is a different kind of memory of the God, right? Just as sorcerous ability is the ability to recall the God's voice, TJE is the ability to recall his judgment, or his way of seeing the world, or some such. Thoughts?

I thought it was fairly accurate. If sorcery is the ability to speak with God's words, and Cish have the ability to recall the feelings of God, TJE would naturally be seeing with God's eyes.

[Paxter]

TJE would naturally be seeing with God's eyes.

This would contradict Kellhus' theory of sorcery. He says that all sorcerers can see with God's eyes, which explains why they are able to differentiate God's perfect creation from sorcerers' imperfect creations (i.e. they can discern the Mark of Sorcery).

Following this line of reasoning, TJE must be something other than seeing with God's eyes.

[Spring Bass]

This would contradict Kellhus' theory of sorcery. He says that all sorcerers can see with God's eyes, which explains why they are able to differentiate God's perfect creation from sorcerers' imperfect creations (i.e. they can discern the Mark of Sorcery).

Following this line of reasoning, TJE must be something other than seeing with God's eyes.

I'm not so sure about that. There's seems to be a distinction between seeing the Mark of Sorcery and seeing damnation/godly influence. Considering that it's explicitly described as her seeing how holy people and things are, I think it's fair to say that it's effectively seeing with God's Eyes.

Which, of course, raises a question. If someone could theoretically see with God's eyes, remember the voice (regular sorcery), and also remember the intent (psukhe), does that mean that they could actually sing with the God's voice without it being damnation and marring the world a la the Mark? A true "Shaman" (sorceror/prophet as described in PoN), perhaps? The fact that they have a title for it suggests that it may have happened before.

[Shryke]

This would contradict Kellhus' theory of sorcery. He says that all sorcerers can see with God's eyes, which explains why they are able to differentiate God's perfect creation from sorcerers' imperfect creations (i.e. they can discern the Mark of Sorcery).

Following this line of reasoning, TJE must be something other than seeing with God's eyes.

It's an analogy. You can't use it in some sort of logical proof.

[Paxter]

I'm not so sure about that. There's seems to be a distinction between seeing the Mark of Sorcery and seeing damnation/godly influence. Considering that it's explicitly described as her seeing how holy people and things are, I think it's fair to say that it's effectively seeing with God's Eyes.

I can certainly see where you and Kalbear are coming from GB - it seems logical to conclude that observing damnation can be likened to seeing with God's eyes. But that doesn't change the fact that it contradicts Kellhus' speech on sorcery. Kellhus explicitly states in TTT that the Few see the world with God's eyes.

Which, of course, raises a question. If someone could theoretically see with God's eyes, remember the voice (regular sorcery), and also remember the intent (psukhe), does that mean that they could actually sing with the God's voice without it being damnation and marring the world a la the Mark?

My understanding was that the Psukhe was merely a more pure form of sorcery (i.e. Cishaurim are better able to see with God's eyes and sing with God's voice - which explains why they are not marked by the imperfection of the other forms of sorcery), rather than an ability to recall the intent of God.

[Paxter]

It's an analogy. You can't use it in some sort of logical proof.

Well, you are assuming it's an analogy. It might also be a metaphysical reality built in to Bakker's world.

[Shryke]

Well, you are assuming it's an analogy. It might also be a metaphysical reality built in to Bakker's world.

Fine, then the Judging Eye is seeing differently with God's eyes.

There ya go.

[Shryke]

My understanding was that the Psukhe was merely a more pure form of sorcery (i.e. Cishaurim are better able to see with God's eyes and sing with God's voice - which explains why they are not marked by the imperfection of the other forms of sorcery), rather than an ability to recall the intent of God.

No. The Psukhe is based on feeling rather then intellect. It's completely different from the other Schools. Because emotions are less easily shown to be wrong then, say, an equation, they don't suffer from the Mark. The trade-off, though, is that emotions are raw and imprecise.

FYI, you really seem to have this all turned around. When talking about "seeing with God's eye" Kellhus is referring to being able to perceive the Onta.

There's also the implicit acknowledgment of imperfection in his analogy. The sorceror sees more facets of the world then the normal person, but not all of them.

[Paxter]

Fine, then the Judging Eye is seeing differently with God's eyes.

There ya go.

Heh. Look, I take your point. I was merely trying to use some textual evidence to get to the heart of what TJE actually is. GB and Kal could be right on this for all I know :dunno:.

[Paxter]

No. The Psukhe is based on feeling rather then intellect. It's completely different from the other Schools. Because emotions are less easily shown to be wrong then, say, an equation, they don't suffer from the Mark. The trade-off, though, is that emotions are raw and imprecise.

That's what I meant when I said that Cishaurim are better able to sing with God's voice - because the Psukhe is based on emotion, they are able to recall (in Kellhus' words): "the tone and timbre, the passion of the God's voice" and thus Cishaurim creations are less distinguishable from God's original creation.

The purpose of the post you quoted was merely to dispel the idea that the Psukhe is a manifestation of the intent of God - it is in fact an alternative version of sorcery that enables the Cishaurim to replicate God's creation in a more perfect and less distinguishable way.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

The problem with the Psukhe is that although we know that it leaves no Mark and Kellhus implies that the reason is as you say, that it's a more perfect (or less imperfect, perhaps) recollection of the God's voice, I don't see how this can be so.

Consider: The Gnosis is more powerful than the Anagogis because it more accurately conveys pure meaning. If the Psukhe was indeed purer than either (since both the Gnosis and the Anagogis leave a Mark), then it follows that it would be more powerful, instead of somewhat less powerful.

[Kalbear]

Consider: The Gnosis is more powerful than the Anagogis because it more accurately conveys pure meaning. If the Psukhe was indeed purer than either (since both the Gnosis and the Anagogis leave a Mark), then it follows that it would be more powerful, instead of somewhat less powerful.

I've been bugged by that too. The only way I figure it makes sense is that the gnosis/anagogic magics are uses of hack codes; the codes are there, but using them isn't the way God did it. He did it more elegantly; they're using the theories of how the world works to reach a totally different outcome.

Whereas the Psukhe uses the exact same way God did to do things. They remember the sound of God's voice after all, so they're doing the same thing that he did. Of course it's not as powerful because it's not as precise; it's like using a water hose to carve a stone statue.

[Shryke]

The problem with the Psukhe is that although we know that it leaves no Mark and Kellhus implies that the reason is as you say, that it's a more perfect (or less imperfect, perhaps) recollection of the God's voice, I don't see how this can be so.

Consider: The Gnosis is more powerful than the Anagogis because it more accurately conveys pure meaning. If the Psukhe was indeed purer than either (since both the Gnosis and the Anagogis leave a Mark), then it follows that it would be more powerful, instead of somewhat less powerful.

The Gnosis isn't "purer" though, it's just more powerful.

It's like trying to model a system with math and the Anagogics are stuck with Roman Numerals and basic arithmetic and the Gnosis is using Calculus. One is a much more powerful tool then the other, but neither is capable of producing a good enough model that's it's not obvious to those in the know that it doesn't completely match up.

Meanwhile the Psukhe is like the wacky artiste of the family who is painting the scene instead of trying to model it.