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The Judging Eye VI


Nerdanel

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I'm trying to think of parallels, but I don't see them. Unless Moenghus was the father, and Kellhus the son, but Kellhus doesn't have a crap ton of brothers (just Maithenet), he wasn't exiled, and his wife wasn't stolen by the demon king.

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This is not true.

1) Moe, who practices Logos and magic states that magic does not violate the principle of what comes before determines what comes after.

2) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - ACC

re:

1) This isn't contradictory to me - magic does contrevene scientific priciples, just not that particular one. Also the entire point of the Dunyain's use of the logos is to overturn the principle to which you refer.

2) Indistiguishable does not mean identical, and when such advanced technology appears to contradict existing knowledge of science it stands to reason that it would be explained as magic, especialy by the ignorant.

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I'm trying to think of parallels, but I don't see them. Unless Moenghus was the father, and Kellhus the son, but Kellhus doesn't have a crap ton of brothers (just Maithenet), he wasn't exiled, and his wife wasn't stolen by the demon king.

....yet ^_^

And its not an exact copy it just has similarities. I think the most striking similarity is the whole "perfect man is a god in a mans body" and his perfect sons and brothers fighting demons.

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re:

1) This isn't contradictory to me - magic does contrevene scientific priciples, just not that particular one. Also the entire point of the Dunyain's use of the logos is to overturn the principle to which you refer.

I don't follow the first bit (second sentence is v. clever). What is a scentific principle being contravened? Anything that follows rules and is repeatable is amenable to scientific investigation. Just because it doesn't work that way on Earth doesn't make it a contravention of science.

2) Indistiguishable does not mean identical, and when such advanced technology appears to contradict existing knowledge of science it stands to reason that it would be explained as magic, especialy by the ignorant.
You just agreed with me. :lol:
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Dude! I think you might be being obtuse here. All that I can infer from your statements is that you believe the following:

"If magic exists, then it would be (eventually) able to be explained and reproduced by scientific method."

Which therefore means the described phenomenom would be science, and magic would not actually exist!

That may be how you make a chorae, but it isn't how you make an argument.

Well, unless you are starting from the veiwpoint that magic is only trickery and slight of hand.

In my first example above, I am saying that magic may not violate the principle of what comes before determines what comes after, but it certainly violates several other scientific laws, depending on whether you are exploding people with harsh language, walking on air, using tlelepathy etc.

In most fantasy worlds the laws of physics etc hold true unless contradicted by magic. If you are expected to believe that seemingly magical effects are the effect of science and technology, you are reading sci fi.

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Dude! I think you may possibly being deliberatately obtuse here. All that I can infer from your statements is that you believe the following:

"If magic exists, then it would be (eventually) able to be explained and reproduced by scientific method."

Which therefore means the described phenomenom would be science, and magic would not actually exist!

That may be how you make a chorae, but it isn't how you make an argument.

In my first example above, I am saying that magic may not violate the principle of what comes before determines what comes after, but it certainly violates several other scientific laws, depending on whether you are exploding people with harsh language, walking on air, using tlelepathy etc.

Ok. Is there any reason to assume that the magic in TJE is magical in your sense? Or at least the Gnosis? If it was not susceptible to scientific inquiry why would Khellus be good at it?

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Dude! I think you might be being obtuse here. All that I can infer from your statements is that you believe the following:

"If magic exists, then it would be (eventually) able to be explained and reproduced by scientific method."

Which therefore means the described phenomenom would be science, and magic would not actually exist!

It's ironic, since we are discussing Bakker, but you're just making a semantic point now about what "magic" can be defined as.

In most fantasy worlds the laws of physics etc hold true unless contradicted by magic. If you are expected to believe that seemingly magical effects are the effect of science and technology, you are reading sci fi.

You read the part about the aliens coming in the giant space-ship with big laser beams and a mastery over biology right? :lmao:
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Every time I read a Bakker thread, I feel extremely ignorant of the series. People are talking about the different magic systems and all the background info and I'm like :stillsick: ....I like the part where he jumps through the arrows. Is this because I have only read each book once or that I read the original series when it came out and had a huge time gap between those and the Judging Eye?

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It's ironic, since we are discussing Bakker, but you're just making a semantic point now about what "magic" can be defined as.

Well, I think that my original post was about the semantic definition of magic vs science. Don't see any irony in it.

You read the part about the aliens coming in the giant space-ship with big laser beams and a mastery over biology right? :lmao:

! I said that physics works in the same way, except where magic contradicts it. You read the part where a bunch of ironage savages with swords, chariots and MAGIC kicked the arses of the dudes with lasers, spacetravel tech and geneticly egineered cannon fodder, right? :shocked:

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Well, I think that my original post was about the semantic definition of magic vs science. Don't see any irony in it.

! I said that physics works in the same way, except where magic contradicts it. You read the part where a bunch of ironage savages with swords, chariots and MAGIC kicked the arses of the dudes with lasers, spacetravel tech and geneticly egineered cannon fodder, right? :shocked:

technically it was against non-men. We don't even know if they bleed. perhaps poking them with holes isn't as fatal as it is for humans? in other words maybe nonmen are extremely hard to kill even with conventional scifi weaponry.

if the inchoroi had waged war on the humans+magic, the inchies would have probably won, imo.

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! I said that physics works in the same way, except where magic contradicts it. You read the part where a bunch of ironage savages with swords, chariots and MAGIC kicked the arses of the dudes with lasers, spacetravel tech and geneticly egineered cannon fodder, right?

Yeah, the impression I got was that physics, etc basically work the way they do in our universe right up to the point where either magic and/or agencies of the Outside ("the gods") start re-writing the world via their followers. It fits into the idea that this is all Bakkerworld-centric, the Inchoroi weren't damned until they had the misfortune to crash on a world with an afterlife and damnation, and so forth (there was a big debate over at the Three Seas forum, if I recall correctly, about whether the whole "Outside" bit only touched on the Bakkerworld, or if it encompassed the entire universe).

Every time I read a Bakker thread, I feel extremely ignorant of the series.

It's okay, there's been about a bajillion Bakker threads, and I'm not entirely clear on some of the lines of discussion myself. I suppose it's a testament to the series that it generates such deep and often quite philosophical debate between its fans.

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technically it was against non-men. We don't even know if they bleed. perhaps poking them with holes isn't as fatal as it is for humans? in other words maybe nonmen are extremely hard to kill even with conventional scifi weaponry.

if the inchoroi had waged war on the humans+magic, the inchies would have probably won, imo.

I agree. Still, singing cants is pretty cheap vs lasers. Scientificly speaking - it's cheating, hehe.

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Every time I read a Bakker thread, I feel extremely ignorant of the series. People are talking about the different magic systems and all the background info and I'm like :stillsick: ....I like the part where he jumps through the arrows. Is this because I have only read each book once or that I read the original series when it came out and had a huge time gap between those and the Judging Eye?

I've read the original trilogy twice and TJE once, and I still don't follow a lot of the discussion here. I'm in the same boat where when I'm reading, I like the parts that are awesome, not the minor details that may be important in some overall understanding of the physics/philosophy of the story.

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The nice thing about the scientific method is that it is independent of the local natural laws. Even if computerized magic doesn't work due to soul issues, that doesn't mean that magic and the Outside cannot be subjected to scientific inquiry. Anyway, I have yet to see convincing evidence that belief affects reality in Eärwa and indeed have seen things that suggest that it doesn't.

In fact, I think Bakker is heading towards making a point against belief making reality. In particular, I suspect the "Leap" (of Faith) the Great Ordeal is planning to do by marching beyond the reach of supply lines is going to lead to a disaster.

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Aye, I still think the "belief effects reality" thing is a cliched piece of hogwash.

I said it on a previous thread:

Earwa is a world that is objectively moral.

I've seen nothing, however, to imply it is mutable.

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What is this about computerized magic? :shocked:

Can someone explain to me "how" magic works? You guys talk a lot about the different types of magic and how they have different philosophical thought processes that drive the magic. I never really picked this up during my reading. Does anyone care to give a brief overview of how each magic system "works" beyond it being, you know, magic? :ohwell:

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Akka thinks in Latin calculus and it makes lasers shoot out of his eyes. you know he recites some equation that says, "fuck you with a laser nail of heaven, zap!" and he thinks it in Latin and it works.

Chorae work with proofs more or less, saying, 'divide by zero error, please reinstall universe and reboot.' basically it's like a cheat sheet saying Akka just got it wrong so it erases his magic.

Well not really, but sort of. :D ;)

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Akka thinks in Latin calculus and it makes lasers shoot out of his eyes. you know he recites some equation that says, "fuck you with a laser nail of heaven, zap!" and he thinks it in Latin and it works.

Chorae work with proofs more or less, saying, 'divide by zero error, please reinstall universe and reboot.' basically it's like a cheat sheet saying Akka just got it wrong so it erases his magic.

Well not really, but sort of. :D ;)

:wacko:

Please dont tell me that was the answer to my questions.....

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The answer comes most directly from Kellhus' talk with Akka about the nature of sorcery, which we can only regard as possibly incomplete and possible a lie, but it is an interesting theory that fits at least superficially with all that we know of sorcery.

Kellhus' basic point is that the ability to perform sorcery is a natural talent that basically consists of an individual who is able to recollect the God's voice and see with His eyes - ie being able to see the Mark. Sorcery itself is the translation of that memory of God's voice into reality, in much the same way that the God himself supposedly did to create the world. However, since sorcerers recall the voice only imperfectly, their sorcery is not as perfect as the God's creation, and so it leaves its Mark on the world and on its user.

The Gnosis and Anagogis are both intellectual in nature; that is, it appears that intellect is the driving force behind strength in them (though of course we don't know that this is true). They translate the meanings of the God's voice into word and thence into reality.

The Psuhke is a recollection, as Kellhus says, not of the God's thoughts or meanings but rather of the timbre or tone of his voice. The distinction here is unclear, except that the Psuhke doesn't seem to require the use of language and is based on passion rather than intellect. Basically Kellhus says that the users of the Psuhke are able to more perfectly recall the God's voice, which is why they leave no Mark.

I personally think that Kellhus is telling the truth, although the bit about the Psuhke doesn't make much sense to me - if all sorcery is a recollection of the God's voice, then it seems that the Psuhke would be more powerful, rather than somewhat less powerful.

ETA: If, like me, you think that reality is mutable in Earwa, then you can think of sorcery in that light. Basically the sorcerer is imposing his imperfect meaning upon the God's perfect meaning, and while the sorcerer has enough power to alter it temporarily, he cannot change the nature of God's creation. The follow-up to that is that Chorae function by anchoring the God's reality, thus rendering sorcery impotent. The contradiction spoken of in the glossary is then the contradiction between "real" reality (the God's) and the sorcerer's less real reality.

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