Anti-Feminist Anger

[Lady Blackfish]

In fairness I haven't been able to find where I had read that in my absolute mess of a links folder, but I really do think that this idea that everyone hates the word "feminist" except bitchy feminists is skewed. I think people's reactions depend very heavily on the sense of the pressures involved, and well for example, if you're a young girl that knows that all the boys will laugh at you for using the word, can you really say that it's the young girl's own unbiased assessment of the movement that leads to the aversion?

[TheKassi]

In fairness I haven't been able to find where I had read that in my absolute mess of a links folder, but I really do think that this idea that everyone hates the word "feminist" except bitchy feminists is skewed. I think people's reactions depend very heavily on the sense of the pressures involved, and well for example, if you're a young girl that knows that all the boys will laugh at you for using the word, can you really say that it's the young girl's own unbiased assessment of the movement that leads to the aversion?

Depends on the group and the context. Pollsters who walk around with dictionaries and ask: "do you subscribe to a doctrine advocating the concept that social, political, and all other rights of women should be equal to those of men." then the answer for both women and men is an overwhelming majority. A much higher percentage of people will indeed describe themselves as feminist if you read the term from the dictionary then will do so cold.

In practice, one is far more likely to hear "I am not a feminist but..." then "I am a feminist." The dictionary definition is a default position for western society. The political definition comes with much more baggage.

[Lady Blackfish]

That does sound an awful like to me like "Because people don't know what feminism is". Obviously feminism in practice is very splintered and varied at this point, but I really don't think that's the main thing we're talking about here, is it? People think that sex positivity is the only feminist topic of the day, vs back when it was about glass ceilings, that kind of thing? Or if it's a matter of methodology/strategy, well, I think it's a valid argument to make that disagreeing with how someone else makes an argument is no excuse to abandon the argument yourself, if you have a conviction about it.

We're talking about a feminist PR problem, right? And people are saying that all the images and preconceptions attached to feminists are appropriate responses to feminists' own words and actions?

[kungtotte]

It is very much a PR problem. The animal rights movement and the environmental movement suffer from the same thing.

A small portion of those fighting for the various causes are radical and controversial, and since people like reading about radical and controversial in the papers that's what gets the most reporting, so that's also what people are exposed to the most. Only because it's radical and controversial, people form very strong opinions about it, generally negative opinions, and eventually there's always the spectre of controversiality hanging over the cause itself.

So much so that when you say "feminist" or "animal rights activist", people don't think about equality or non-cruelty, they think about the man-haters wanting to impose a man-tax, or PETA wanting to rename fish "sea kittens".

ETA

I should point out that it doesn't really matter if the opinions about feminism are appropriate responses or not. They're there, so that's why there is a PR issue.

[Lady Blackfish]

But the thing I would like to reiterate then is that the term is often, like Kalbear said, defined by the opponents. What you said doesn't seem to negate that, kungtotte.

Why don't you hear more from "normal" feminists? Maybe if they didn't have this social pressure of being laughed down and rejected simply for being visibly identifiable as feminists, you would. Some pretty ludicrous things got tossed around in this thread - why don't feminists stand up and disown their crazies? As an admittedly obvious example, would you demand that Martin Luther King Jr. contextualize Malcom X for you, otherwise you wouldn't listen to his points?

Honestly it doesn't bother me to take a man's last name when I get married. But it bothers other women, and that's their fight and that's their right, and I am not fighting it, but I'm not going to help color their image as pedants with no sense of priority. I can as well keep my eye on females in public office as well as comment on marketing tendencies of blue vs pink clothes. That you might find me in the middle of a conversation on the latter doesn't mean that I'm fighting no larger battles (aka tilting at windmills). We are intelligent enough to think of these things as complex wholes, or at least we should be.

I absolutely think it matters if the opinions about feminism are appropriate or not. It's very different to say "Feminists should do this because it is a necessary practical concession" vs "Feminists should do this because then they won't be crazies." It's well established that feminism has a PR problem. Well, now what?

[TheKassi]

That does sound an awful like to me like "Because people don't know what feminism is".

The problem is that the word is often usurped and used to blanket things that have nothing to do with socioeconomic or political rights. As example the F-word defines a feminist as:

“Feminists stand up for women as three-dimensional people with more to offer than a smile and a vagina; feminists are those who are willing to fight the endemic misogyny that saturates society.”

That describes a much smaller percentage of people, male and female, then the dictionary. Heck the term feminist is often used to describe campaigns to take rights away from women because the choices some of them would make are considered degrading.

In a world where believing in equal rights for everyone regardless of race or gender or ideology or (hopefully someday soon) preference is the default position, it is usually the people who usurp the term that get the attention.

In fact if we use the dictionary definition of feminism, this thread shouldn't exist, as the people upset at the woman who wanted to change the Canadian Anthem were not angry that she was advocating feminism, they were angry because she was advocating political correctness.

Why don't you hear more from "normal" feminists? Maybe if they didn't have this social pressure of being laughed down and rejected simply for being visibly identifiable as feminists, you would. Some pretty ludicrous things got tossed around in this thread - why don't feminists stand up and disown their crazies? As an admittedly obvious example, would you demand that Martin Luther King Jr. contextualize Malcom X for you, otherwise you wouldn't listen to his points?

I don't know, I wasn't alive then, but I know I am a fiscal conservative who stands up and disowns my crazies. I freaking hate Objectivists, tea baggers, neo-conservatives, bushies, people who call Obama a socialist, people who want the government to keep it's hands off of their medicare, people who call Obama a communist, Sarah Palin, people who think using Obama's middle name is clever, PAC, the swift boaters, the people who draw Hitler-stashes on Obama, people who drive up the cost of munitions with tales of how Obama is going to take their guns and the seven hundred club.

That way I avoid getting lumped in with them.

Oh and Glen Beck. Worst of them all.

[kiko]

privilege.

I confess that I am somewhat confused by the usage of this word. It might be a translation issue, so I would love to read a clarification. dictionary.com offers the follwoing alternatives:

1. a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.
   

• a special right, immunity, or exemption granted to persons in authority or office to free them from certain obligations or liabilities: the privilege of a senator to speak in Congress without danger of a libel suit.
  

• a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions.
  

• the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.
  

• any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people.
  

• an advantage or source of pleasure granted to a person: It's my privilege to be here.
  

• Stock Exchange. an option to buy or sell stock at a stipulated price for a limited period of time, including puts, calls, spreads, and straddles.
  

[Galactus]

I confess that I am somewhat confused by the usage of this word. It might be a translation issue, so I would love to read a clarification. dictionary.com offers the follwoing alternatives:

1. a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.
   

• a special right, immunity, or exemption granted to persons in authority or office to free them from certain obligations or liabilities: the privilege of a senator to speak in Congress without danger of a libel suit.
  

• a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions.
  

• the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.
  

• any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people.
  

• an advantage or source of pleasure granted to a person: It's my privilege to be here.
  

• Stock Exchange. an option to buy or sell stock at a stipulated price for a limited period of time, including puts, calls, spreads, and straddles.
  

Wiki it.

[Lady Blackfish]

Obviously the word "feminism" means many things to many people (I don't think this is news, anyway, at least not to many in this thread that I've seen participating in threads about feminism before). Feminists disagree with each other all the time, this isn't exactly a recent development. But you can say the same of Christians, and it's still a usable term.

To the woman who wanted to change the anthem, it is a matter of feminism to her. She is not included on the basis of being a woman. Saying that this is a minor feminist issue is different than saying it is not a feminist issue. Gender-neutral language pisses a lot of people off because of the change, not because of the neutrality, and that's an important distinction.

As to your last point, TheKassi, but even if you didn't visibly disown anybody, I have no right to dismiss your points simply because someone with the same label says or does things I find ridiculous. That's idiotic and lets me off the hook as a thinking human being. If your points are not their points, I do not react to you the same way I react to them. You're not Glen Beck, and I'm intelligent enough to tell, and if you can't expect me to be, then how can you expect to appeal to rational arguments at all?

[El-ahrairah]

I'd say the main thing that makes me bitter towards the feminist movement is its confusion of things that matter and those that don't. The rights to vote, own property, gain employment - these are serious and worthy goals. And ya know what? You've won! In America at least.

But alongside this is a constant assault on the once-beautiful English Language, which would make me tremble in shame had I the honor of being a girl. The great authoress Madeline l'Engle puts it very nicely -

"I am a female, of the species man. Genesis is very explicit that it takes both male and female to make the image of God, and that the generic word, man, includes both... That is scripture, therefore I refuse to be timid about being a part of mankind. We of the female sex are half of mankind, and it is pusillanimous to resort to he/she, him/her, or even worse, android words. I have a hunch that those who would do so have forgotten their rightful heritage."

If anyone ought to be insulted by neutral "Man" it's us males - we don't even get a word of our own; we hafta share with the fairer sex.

There are women out there denied their "rights" - mostly in places like Saudi Arabia. If you want to march for the right to drop your veil I'll be right beside you. But lay off the crusading for specks of dust at home. Please, stop embarrassing half the planet.

[Lady Blackfish]

See, I could never reject a worthy cause about human rights in the name of beautiful language. My conscience couldn't countenance that. Nor do I think that greater inequalities existing makes lesser inequalities suddenly disappear. That you disagree about gender neutrality in language being a legitimate feminist issue is one thing, and that you would allow that disagreement to define your entire experience with the word "feminism" is another thing.

[TheKassi]

To the woman who wanted to change the anthem, it is a matter of feminism to her.

I know, it however isn't feminism according to the dictionary. That is pretty much my point. When I pointed out the difference between feminism the dictionary definition and feminism the the political definition and how more people would SI with the first ect you countered with “That does sound an awful like to me like "Because people don't know what feminism is" “

America is feminist by an overwhelming majority as defined by the dictionary. By the political definition, not so much. I think they got 52% of women, and then you start having arguments about if men can even be feminists.

As to your last point, TheKassi, but even if you didn't visibly disown anybody, I have no right to dismiss your points simply because someone with the same label says or does things I find ridiculous. That's idiotic and lets me off the hook as a thinking human being. If your points are not their points, I do not react to you the same way I react to them. You're not Glen Beck, and I'm intelligent enough to tell, and if you can't expect me to be, then how can you expect to appeal to rational arguments at all?

The problem with this claim is that when people criticize those who deviate from the dictionary definition of feminism feminists will rally around them and then attempt to united their brand of feminism under the dictionary brand of feminism. This conversation is actually an example of just that.

If every time someone criticized Glen Beck I started up a thread about anti-fiscal conservative anger it would be pretty silly of me to complain that people lumped me in with Beck.

[Kelli Fury]

I'd say the main thing that makes me bitter towards the feminist movement is its confusion of things that matter and those that don't. The rights to vote, own property, gain employment - these are serious and worthy goals. And ya know what? You've won! In America at least.

But alongside this is a constant assault on the once-beautiful English Language, which would make me tremble in shame had I the honor of being a girl. The great authoress Madeline l'Engle puts it very nicely -

"I am a female, of the species man. Genesis is very explicit that it takes both male and female to make the image of God, and that the generic word, man, includes both... That is scripture, therefore I refuse to be timid about being a part of mankind. We of the female sex are half of mankind, and it is pusillanimous to resort to he/she, him/her, or even worse, android words. I have a hunch that those who would do so have forgotten their rightful heritage."

If anyone ought to be insulted by neutral "Man" it's us males - we don't even get a word of our own; we hafta share with the fairer sex.

There are women out there denied their "rights" - mostly in places like Saudi Arabia. If you want to march for the right to drop your veil I'll be right beside you. But lay off the crusading for specks of dust at home. Please, stop embarrassing half the planet.

It is this attitude that makes feminism necessary now and in the US. There are still PLENTY of feminist issues that need to be addressed here. How about equal pay? How about reproductive rights? That you think you can tell any stripe of feminist what is and is not a worthy goal is proof that feminism still has a lot of work to do. If a word is so unimportant and trivial, then why not change it? Why must we all shake our heads and tell them to find more important things to do? Sixty years ago the same attitude was taken toward women who wanted to work, who wanted to raise children alone. And though I'm a Christian, I sure as hell do not want the BIBLE to be the standard for female equality.

[needle]

There are women out there denied their "rights" - mostly in places like Saudi Arabia. If you want to march for the right to drop your veil I'll be right beside you. But lay off the crusading for specks of dust at home. Please, stop embarrassing half the planet.

You are being shockingly insulting and patronising to tell people they are 'embarassing' by campaigning about something they care about.

On a tangent. - I'm sure what I'm about to say will be a bit controversial, but I sometimes think that women who refuse to call themselves feminists are a bit cowardly. I know, I shouldn't think that, but it's just a bit...how can they not want equality? how can they not want to support their own team because the word feminism has been given an unfeminine connotation? Is it fear of being derided, of being told they are a man hating lesbian, that makes women discard the word?

[Kalbear]

how can they not want to support their own team because the word feminism has been given an unfeminine connotation? Is it fear of being derided, of being told they are a man hating lesbian, that makes women discard the word?

On talking to a couple - the reason is that they feel that it is morally incorrect. That if they do this, they will offend their gods or their culture, and encouraging those who would want this.

It's a hard thing to reconcile in general, as well. If a woman wants and chooses to be a slave, is that acceptable? Should it be?

[TheKassi]

You are being shockingly insulting and patronising to tell people they are 'embarassing' by campaigning about something they care about.

On a tangent. - I'm sure what I'm about to say will be a bit controversial, but I sometimes think that women who refuse to call themselves feminists are a bit cowardly. I know, I shouldn't think that, but it's just a bit...how can they not want equality? how can they not want to support their own team because the word feminism has been given an unfeminine connotation? Is it fear of being derided, of being told they are a man hating lesbian, that makes women discard the word?

It isn't about not wanting equality, it is about not advocating things like the selective application of political correctness.

[Ser Reptitious]

Lady Blackfish, welcome to the thread! I agree with everything that you have said! :thumbsup:

TheKassi,

It isn't about not wanting equality, it is about not advocating things like the selective application of political correctness.

"Political correctness" seems to be a term that gets thrown around far too often these days, especially by people who want to discredit a particular issue that was raised.

[Alexia]

As a woman who does not self-identify as a feminist, my reasons are simply that the feminist agenda, as expressed in this thread, does not represent me. Apparently, Father Time and Mother Earth are sexist terms to be eliminated, gendered clothing is to be eliminated, gender neutral language (i.e., political correctness) is critical, and so on. Well, not only do I not agree with these things but I think they are silly. What do I care about? I care about things like maternity leave and affordable childcare. Feminists are certainly free to identify the priorities of their political movement but if I do not agree with those priorities then I will not identify with that movement.

[TheKassi]

"Political correctness" seems to be a term that gets thrown around far too often these days, especially by people who want to discredit a particular issue that was raised.

If you are unfamiliar with the term let me wiki it for you:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, handicap, and age-related contexts.

Wanting to change one word in the anthem to be inclusive to one particular group while ignoring all the other ways the song is linguistically exclusive is an example of the selective application of political correctness.

[Lady Blackfish]

Alexia, do you really think self identifying feminists don't care about maternity leave and affordable childcare? That's flabbergasting to me, I rarely have conversations about those with anybody but feminists.

ETA: Sorry, poor timing, thread's closing.