Sexism in ASOIAF?

[Liadin]

Mmmmkay, some points I still wanted to make. I've changed the name of the thread to reflect the fact that we've unanimously agreed that no, GRRM certainly does not hate women.

RE: The discussion of happy prostitutes and which gender this is meant to appeal to: Am I meant to take the "some women buy books featuring happy whores" as "yes, this does constitute wish-fulfillment fantasy for real women"? Because I buy GRRM's books, just not for the prostitution. And I still think the happy whore is a predominantly male fantasy.

Also, back when we were talking about sisters, I started thinking about how the Great Houses seem much more likely to have male children than female; I finally did the numbers and it turns out that a Great House in ASOIAF has a 73.5% chance of any child born to it being male.

The details, for those who are curious:

I’m counting here only legitimate children in the direct line. Jon doesn’t count because his legitimacy and parentage are still unclear. I counted Rhaego because he was the Targaryen heir at the time he was born, as well as Shireen because Stannis has struck out on his own and is Robert's rightful heir, but not the numerous Lannister or Tyrell cousins.

The current youngest generation:

Starks: 3 boys, 2 girls

Arryns: 1 boy, no girls

Lannisters & Baratheons: 2 boys, 2 girls

Tyrells: 3 boys, 1 girl

Martells: 2 boys, 1 girl

Tullys: no younguns yet

Targaryens (Rhaegar’s and Dany’s children): 2 boys, 1 girl

Greyjoys: 3 boys, 1 girl

The current parent generation:

Starks: 3 boys, 1 girl

Arryns: no kids

Lannisters: 2 boys, 1 girl

Baratheons: 3 boys, no girls

Tyrells: 1 boy, 2 girls

Martells: 4 boys, 1 girl

Tullys: 1 boy, 2 girls

Targaryens (Aerys’s children): 2 boys, 1 girl

Greyjoys: 9 boys, no girls

The current grandparent generation:

Starks: 1 boy, no girls

Arryns: 2 boys, 1 girl

Lannisters: 4 boys, 1 girl

Baratheons: ?

Tyrells: ? (Mace appears to have 3 uncles and no aunts, but I’m leaving them out due to too little information)

Martells: ?

Tullys: 2 boys, no girls

Targaryens: ?

Greyjoys: ?

This gives us a total of 68 kids born to families that were either Great Lords or Kings within the past three generations: 50 boys and 18 girls. Divide it out, and a major house has a 74% chance of any child born to it being male.

The numbers may actually be higher, because we know that, say, Steffon Baratheon was a male in the direct line, and he had no sisters that we know of, but I’ve refrained from guessing when it comes to families where I can’t actually name all the kids for sure.

Sure, there are plot-related reasons for this, but I still think it's worth pointing out when family trees (which by rights should go 50/50) are this heavily tilted.

Edit: To include corrections to my numbers.

[Alexia]

Koolkat, I agree that they seem more likely to have sons than daughters but your statistics are totally invalid when you're missing so much of the grandparent generation.

[Liadin]

Koolkat, I agree that they seem more likely to have sons than daughters but your statistics are totally invalid when you're missing so much of the grandparent generation.

Oh, the census wouldn't think much of it, but I think it's legit to count all of the families where GRRM has explicitly told us how many kids there are and what their names were, and leave out the families where he didn't. This is fiction after all.

Still, even if you eliminated the grandparent generation entirely, you still have 38 boys and 16 girls, which gives you a 70% chance of having a boy.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

The whole "happy whore" thing sort of throws me: apart from someone like Shae, who is unabashed about her arrangement with Tyrion, are there any explicit scenes in which a female "pro" is talking about how much they love living that life?

My point is just, there's a difference between being resigned to your station in life, and actually having satisfaction at living the life of a prostitute. This is especially true in a world where upward mobility is very difficult for those not born into either a noble family or a wealthy one.

I don't think that Chataya's employee's are necessarily ecstatic over their profession, but what other choices are there for them? It's not as if they can go to night school, get their GED and then take college courses in order to secure a better job. Sure, some of the more "exotic" prostitues in Braavos have some weird idiosyncracies that may lead the reader to think they enjoy their lives (like the one who wouldn't sleep with a customer unless she was married to him) but then again, in Braavos you also have high class courtesans (more like Geisha girls, or the Companions from Firefly) who would likely have alot of choice in their customers and may actually enjoy their work as it would probably involve more than just sex as their main activity.

There's definitely a broad spectrum when it comes to prostitution, but by and large I would imagine the women (in Westeros at least) who do it aren't doing it because they enjoy it, but because it is a steady (and probably better) income than doing something more "socially acceptable". Again, big difference between working a job because it provides for you and working a job because you love doing it.

If I completely missed the point, my apologies, I sometimes have a habit of doing that. ;)

[Alexia]

Still, even if you eliminated the grandparent generation entirely, you still have 38 boys and 16 girls, which gives you a 70% chance of having a boy.

But ONE family, the Greyjoys, heavily skews that statistic. Eliminating the Greyjoys entirely gives a 64% chance, which is still abnormally high but not as obscene as 73%.

[Mad Monkey]

There's definitely a broad spectrum when it comes to prostitution, but by and large I would imagine the women (in Westeros at least) who do it aren't doing it because they enjoy it, but because it is a steady (and probably better) income than doing something more "socially acceptable".

What other source of income is there, really, for young women in an urban setting? Apart from warfare and smithing, men can probably get jobs assisting merchants -- and if they do well enough their children (sons and daughters) might be able to get a leg-up there, but that's probably not very common or else the middle class would be larger.

Robert created a massive welfare system for young men by expanding the goldcloaks to anyone who can hold a sword and stand around menacingly, but there's few real equivalents for women. Aside from prostitution, you can become a silent sister or a septa (which I doubt pay very well or accept very many commoners) or...

But ONE family, the Greyjoys, heavily skews that statistic.

Are we counting Euron's offspring?

[Datepalm]

Woah, cool list. I love this stuff.

Off the top of my head nitpick - Doran has another two brothers before Oberyn who died as children, and there were 9 Greyjoy brothers from 3 wives.

I agree with Alexias criticism with regard to the grandparent generation, but in that generation theres no expectation that we would have a full listing of siblings - even if Edmure had no plot relevance whatsoever, it would still be really weird for us to never even hear of him, at the very least in the index, but with the grandparents its tied in to fleshing out the families and character recollections and so on, and in that sense it might be telling that a lot more men than women get recollected. I mean, its not entirely impossible that Hoster had a sister who was married off 50 years ago who Catelyns has never even met - like Catelyns retinue, shes just never relevant. And then theres the glaring weirdness of no one, ever, not once, thinking about Neds mother.

happy hookers - I would think its a male fantasy, Pretty Woman and stuff like that, but Careys book(s, I only read the one) really bothered me, becuase it seemed like a story that was very much supposed to be about an empowered woman, whos the agent of the story, and mostly the prostitution was handled extremely uncritically and uninterestingly - psychologically and plot wise, she might as well have actually been a seamstress.

There were piles of other stuff that I typically associate with light stories oriented at female wish fulfilment reading - the mary sueness, the lingering descriptions of lots of clothes and lots of handsome men, etc, and BLAM, in the middle of that the main character isn't a princess or a jet setting fashion designer, but an inherent masochist raised into whoring. Its a weird dissonance, but I can't help but conclude someone finds it fun reading, becuase the overall tone of the book couldn't possibly be described as dark or morally or emotionally difficult.

[Liadin]

The whole "happy whore" thing sort of throws me: apart from someone like Shae, who is unabashed about her arrangement with Tyrion, are there any explicit scenes in which a female "pro" is talking about how much they love living that life?

I'm not sure Shae was all that happy in it, really, and you're right that Chataya & Co may not be as happy as they act in front of customers. (Although the fact that Chataya, who's not hurting financially, has her own daughter working as a prostitute is important.)

There's definitely a broad spectrum when it comes to prostitution, but by and large I would imagine the women (in Westeros at least) who do it aren't doing it because they enjoy it, but because it is a steady (and probably better) income than doing something more "socially acceptable". Again, big difference between working a job because it provides for you and working a job because you love doing it.

If I completely missed the point, my apologies, I sometimes have a habit of doing that. ;)

I think you're right. The original point, from the last thread, had more to do with readers' reactions to prostitute characters than the prostitutes themselves. Happy Ent suggested that female readers want to see women like Asha, Arya, and Chataya, and don't want to see women like Catelyn. I don't think that's necessarily true, or that women are any more demanding in what kinds of female characters they want to see than men are regarding male characters, but I was especially intrigued by his mention of Chataya. The happy prostitute just doesn't seem to me like a character that appeals to large numbers of women, or whose appeal is mostly to women rather than men. In particular, I don't envision prostitutes as being especially thrilled with their profession, although I'm sure some are okay with it.

But ONE family, the Greyjoys, heavily skews that statistic.

So? You can see the trend even without the Greyjoys, and a nearly 2/3 chance is still quite high. Besides, the Greyjoys are legitimate characters in the story just as much as, say, the Martells.

Are we counting Euron's offspring?

No, they'd be illegitimate wouldn't they?

[DizoakiusMaximus]

What other source of income is there, really, for young women in an urban setting? Apart from warfare and smithing, men can probably get jobs assisting merchants -- and if they do well enough their children (sons and daughters) might be able to get a leg-up there, but that's probably not very common or else the middle class would be larger.

Exactly my point. (there are some other professions open to young women; ie. laundress, seamstress, waitress, but not many, and some of these would actually be moonlighting as prostitutes as well) I never thought about the Gold Cloaks in that way (as a form of welfare) but yes, you're quite right about that.

"Fun" fact regarding even having a young woman enter into the Septry or the Silent Sisters: in Medieval times, convents were often brothels in all but name. When Hamlet tells Ophelia "Get thee to a nunnery!" he's telling her to move into a whorehouse.

@KoolKat - Shae is a tough one for me; on one hand she plays the role Tyrion hired her for very well, even to the extent of making him forget at times that the only reason she's so good at the act is because he's paying her very well. As the reader (which is a skewed view since you're seeing her through Tyrion's eyes most of the time) it seems as if she is content with the arrangement, at least up until she decides that betraying Tyrion is likely to benefit her better than helping him (and why should she? She had likely been threatened with physical violence if she refused to testify against him, and it's not like she owed anything to him anyway)

As for Chataya's daughter, I don't know whats up with that. They were from the Summer Isles, right? Don't they have a much much more relaxed attitude towards sex than the Westerosi? (if I recall the boat voyage from AFFC correctly) That probably would extend to prostitution as well. (plus as owner/operator of the establishment, Chataya would be able to ensure that only resonably honest/gentl clients would come her daughters way)

[Alexia]

I'm not sure Shae was all that happy in it, really,

Shae really did not want to be a prostitute, she did it and pretended to enjoy it because she had no other choices.

So? You can see the trend even without the Greyjoys, and a nearly 2/3 chance is still quite high. Besides, the Greyjoys are legitimate characters in the story just as much as, say, the Martells.

Because these are the random kinds of things that can skew statistics. Say you included 5 American families, 1 of the families had three sets of triplets. You then extrapolate from that to say that American families have X% (too lazy to work one out) of having triplets...but its not true, that family is clearly outside the norm.

We're missing a lot of info on these families...how many of Lysa's stillbirths were male vs. female, for example? That child Cersei aborted...male or female? Also, you've only counted legitimate children. Robert has an awful lot of bastard daughters and then there are all of Oberyn's girls.

[Datepalm]

The whole "happy whore" thing sort of throws me: apart from someone like Shae, who is unabashed about her arrangement with Tyrion, are there any explicit scenes in which a female "pro" is talking about how much they love living that life?

I think even Shae is pushing it - she was raped by her father starting at god knows what age, and the one thing she wants from Tyrion is a marriage, or failing that, financial support and being a kept woman. The one thing she never does in KL is dump Tyrion (increasingly abusive and financially useless - even negative. He puts her to work as a maid, for heavens sake.) and go looking for more clients.

The only real example is Chataya, who loves the proffession enough to raise her daughter in it, and the summer islanders appear to have some kind of temple prostitution. (I do think Chataya is twisting the letter of that custom to justify her business to herself though, or even just cynically add a bit of exotic allure to it. Good marketing.)

[Liadin]

Woah, cool list. I love this stuff.

Off the top of my head nitpick - Doran has another two brothers before Oberyn who died as children, and there were 9 Greyjoy brothers from 3 wives.

Thanks, I edited to include them.

I agree with Alexias criticism with regard to the grandparent generation, but in that generation theres no expectation that we would have a full listing of siblings - even if Edmure had no plot relevance whatsoever, it would still be really weird for us to never even hear of him, at the very least in the index, but with the grandparents its tied in to fleshing out the families and character recollections and so on, and in that sense it might be telling that a lot more men than women get recollected. I mean, its not entirely impossible that Hoster had a sister who was married off 50 years ago who Catelyns has never even met - like Catelyns retinue, shes just never relevant. And then theres the glaring weirdness of no one, ever, not once, thinking about Neds mother.

As far as the grandparents, with the families I included I was fairly certain that we knew of everyone who was mentioned. We know that Rickard was an only child, that Jon Arryn had a brother and a sister, and that Tywin had 3 brothers and a sister. I suppose it's technically possible that Hoster and Brynden had a sister who was never mentioned, but it seemed unlikely to me given the prominence of the Tully family. I didn't include Steffon Baratheon and his ilk in the counting because we really don't know, but I don't see any reason to assume that the gender balance would be different in their families.

happy hookers - I would think its a male fantasy, Pretty Woman and stuff like that, but Careys book(s, I only read the one) really bothered me, becuase it seemed like a story that was very much supposed to be about an empowered woman, whos the agent of the story, and mostly the prostitution was handled extremely uncritically and uninterestingly - psychologically and plot wise, she might as well have actually been a seamstress.

There were piles of other stuff that I typically associate with light stories oriented at female wish fulfilment reading - the mary sueness, the lingering descriptions of lots of clothes and lots of handsome men, etc, and BLAM, in the middle of that the main character isn't a princess or a jet setting fashion designer, but an inherent masochist raised into whoring. Its a weird dissonance, but I can't help but conclude someone finds it fun reading, becuase the overall tone of the book couldn't possibly be described as dark or morally or emotionally difficult.

Weird. I haven't read Carey (clearly). I can attest that some "whores" in fiction (Amber St. Clare of Forever Amber, for instance) are fun, but there it's really not about the sex (the book doesn't include any sex scenes, just lots of innuendo), and the main character practices serial monogamy--it's more about her manipulating men than her having lots of sex.

Because these are the random kinds of things that can skew statistics. Say you included 5 American families, 1 of the families had three sets of triplets. You then extrapolate from that to say that American families have X% (too lazy to work one out) of having triplets...but its not true, that family is clearly outside the norm.

Maybe I've presented the information badly. I'm not trying to argue that GRRM is skewing genetics such that any family in Westeros has a 74% chance of having a boy; I'm arguing that he includes a lot more males than females. If someone wrote a book where 5 families had 3 sets of triplets, it would be legitimate to say that in that author's world, people had a 20% chance (or whatever) of having triplets.

We're missing a lot of info on these families...how many of Lysa's stillbirths were male vs. female, for example? That child Cersei aborted...male or female?

Abortions and miscarriages are irrelevant, the characters may not even know the gender of the fetus.

Also, you've only counted legitimate children. Robert has an awful lot of bastard daughters and then there are all of Oberyn's girls.

Robert's bastards are about 50/50 from what we've seen so far, but it's not really fair to include then when we haven't found them all. At any rate, if I included Oberyn's girls, I'd have to include Kevan's and Genna's boys, and so on.... you're welcome to do those statistics and I'd be interested to see the results, but I don't have the time to do it right now.

[Mad Monkey]

Shae really did not want to be a prostitute, she did it and pretended to enjoy it because she had no other choices.

Plus, we saw her from the perspective of Tyrion. His perspective is flawed because he is a customer (she's not going to share her real feelings with him) and he confabulates her with Tysha, a completely different person with a completely different background and psychological makeup, because he was tricked into thinking that they were more similar than they actually were.

One of the few glimpses that we get of Shae's real emotions (I think) comes in that scene where Tyrion tries to have her transferred to the kitchens:

Tyrion breathed a deep sigh. Remember how young she is, he told himself. He took her hand. “Your gems can be replaced, and new gowns can be sewn twice as lovely as the old. To me, you’re the most precious thing within these walls. The Red Keep is not safe either, but it’s a deal safer than here. I want you there.”

“In the kitchens.” Her voice was flat. “Scouring pots.”

“For a short while.”

“My father made me his kitchen wench,” she said, her mouth twisting. “That was why I ran off.”

“You told me you ran off because your father made you his whore,” he reminded her.

“That too. I didn’t like scouring his pots no more than I liked his cock in me.” She tossed her head.

There's so many things wrong with that that, if true, any outward perceptions that Tyrion might have gotten from Shae about enjoying her work (and I still don't think that he even really believes that; he might think that she loves him, but not the job) can't be trusted.

Robert has an awful lot of bastard daughters and then there are all of Oberyn's girls.

If you count illegitimates, Oberyn's bastards boost the number of daughters in the current generation from 1 to 9. Good God, couldn't he keep it in his pants for five minutes!?

Robert himself has three daughters and two sons (illegitimate).

[Alexia]

@KoolKat - Shae is a tough one for me; on one hand she plays the role Tyrion hired her for very well, even to the extent of making him forget at times that the only reason she's so good at the act is because he's paying her very well. As the reader (which is a skewed view since you're seeing her through Tyrion's eyes most of the time) it seems as if she is content with the arrangement, at least up until she decides that betraying Tyrion is likely to benefit her better than helping him (and why should she? She had likely been threatened with physical violence if she refused to testify against him, and it's not like she owed anything to him anyway)

WRT Shae, there are hints that she doesn't like whoring, even through Tyrion perspective. The fact that she keeps at him to marry her, her upset when he told her she helped him most between the sheets, the reference to her father raping her, etc. I'm pretty sure what her character wanted was marriage and children, and respectability.

I'm arguing that he includes a lot more males than females.

This I can agree with. It's the leap that there is a 73% chance of giving birth to a boy that I quibble with, though. :) Minor note: a stillbirth is not the same as a miscarriage so I think its relevant when it comes to gender birth statistics and the liklihood of giving birth to a girl/boy.

[Liadin]

There's so many things wrong with that that, if true, any outward perceptions that Tyrion might have gotten from Shae about enjoying her work (and I still don't think that he even really believes that; he might think that she loves him, but not the job) can't be trusted.

While I agree with you in a broad sense, I don't think the fact that Shae didn't like having sex with her father necessarily means she didn't like it at all. Anybody would hate being raped by their father.

Robert himself has three daughters and two sons (illegitimate).

He had something like 14 kids IIRC, and we've only learned the genders of 5 of them. So it's hard to say.

This I can agree with. It's the leap that there is a 73% chance of giving birth to a boy that I quibble with, though. :) Minor note: a stillbirth is not the same as a miscarriage so I think its relevant when it comes to gender birth statistics and the liklihood of giving birth to a girl/boy.

That was my way of saying "he gives noble families 73% boys", obviously not the best way though.

Do we know how many of Lysa's pregnancies ended in stillbirths vs. miscarriages? I agree with you that if the stillbirths had been listed in the appendix with the gender of the child I should have counted them, but since they weren't there wasn't much I could do.

[Datepalm]

I thinkt he point isn't so much that the entire westerosi age pyramid is weirdly unbalanced (though theres places in asia that are approaching it, actually.) It probably isn't. It just that when GRRM is putting in a character, and he needs to decide whether that character is going to be a man or a woman, its a man a lot more often. That makes sense, becuase a guy recollecting his uncles influence is going to be different from him recollecting his aunts, for example, but that goes back to having less women interacting with eachother. If women were like men that way, why, the story might have need of Cat and Lysa to remeber their fun, loyal, influential aunt who taught them so much, or Sansa to have the support and sympathy from the sister of Eddards who was married to a Wull and came to visit occasionally.

The nine Greyjoy brothers and eight Sand Snake sisters are pure dramatic licence, IMO. The former adds to the rough, rugged Islander culture and Aerons self esteem issues, the latter to Dornes female-empowered exoticism and Oberyns strangeness.

[Mierin]

1) We haven't seen enough whores in ASOIAF to even make a guess about their happiness. Shae doesn't seem happy either. She tries to get as much out of the whole thing as she can. First getting Tyrion's stuff, then getting his dad's stuff.

2) Far too small sample to be of statistical relevance. You could argue Martin decided to do it like this for plot reasons but it's NOT unrealistic.

Just to make some fun of the whole thing here's a list of current royal families on this very planet.

Japan: 2 boys, 1 girl

GB: 3 boys, 1 girl

Bahrein: 3 boys, 1 girl

Belgium: 2 boys, 1 girl

Bhutan: 0

Denmark, 2 boys, 0 girls

Jordan,2 boys, 2 girls

Netherlands: 3 boys

Morocco:1 boy, 1 girl

Norway 1 boy,1 girl

Sweden, 1 boy,2 girls

Spain, 1 boy,2 girls

That's 21 boys and 12 girls.

= Chance of King/Queen having male kids is around 64%.

I suppose the real world must be sexist then.

*sigh*

[Mad Monkey]

While I agree with you in a broad sense, I don't think the fact that Shae didn't like having sex with her father necessarily means she didn't like it at all. Anybody would hate being raped by their father.

Whoops, sorry about that, that's not what I meant to say at all. I meant to say that being raped by your father is so psychologically traumatic that after learning about something like that it should put anything she says about enjoying being a prostitute into suspicion. I already have a hard time believing that anyone wants to be a streetwalker or a camp follower, but someone who has already been traumatized seems to be less likely to really enjoy that kind of thing. I didn't mean to say that she can't or won't enjoy sex at all.

I'm pretty sure what her character wanted was marriage and children, and respectability.

She's like Blanche Dubois from Tennessee Williams. She just wants to rest! Can you blame her? She gets pummeled so much by life her name might as well be "The Stark Family".

[Liadin]

(though theres places in asia that are approaching it, actually.)

Because they abort or kill female babies. Doesn't happen in Westeros to our knowledge, so the Westerosi should be around 50/50.

It probably isn't. It just that when GRRM is putting in a character, and he needs to decide whether that character is going to be a man or a woman, its a man a lot more often. That makes sense, becuase a guy recollecting his uncles influence is going to be different from him recollecting his aunts, for example, but that goes back to having less women interacting with eachother.

It seems to me the same thing--if GRRM chooses to make a character male somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of the time, the gender balance ends up skewed. Granted, I've just looked at the Great Houses, but that's where most of the important characters are. I find it interesting that in books with epic scope that are written by men, family trees tend to be so heavily male; I've noticed it in Michener's and Rutherfurd's books as well. I mean, it's one thing to include mostly male characters in a book, but it's another to make a bunch of families and have most of them with multiple brothers and only one sister.

Not quite sure where you're going with the issue of recollection, though. With the possible exception of the Tully grandparent generation, we don't have any families included in the calculation where the women have been forgotten; they didn't exist in the first place.

The nine Greyjoy brothers and eight Sand Snake sisters are pure dramatic licence, IMO. The former adds to the rough, rugged Islander culture and Aerons self esteem issues, the latter to Dornes female-empowered exoticism and Oberyns strangeness.

Agreed.

Whoops, sorry about that, that's not what I meant to say at all. I meant to say that being raped by your father is so psychologically traumatic that after learning about something like that it should put anything she says about enjoying being a prostitute into suspicion. I already have a hard time believing that anyone wants to be a streetwalker or a camp follower, but someone who has already been traumatized seems to be less likely to really enjoy that kind of thing. I didn't mean to say that she can't or won't enjoy sex at all.

I definitely agree that Tyrion should have thought harder about that. Prostitution does seem like an unusual profession to choose willingly if your only experience with sex up to that point has been rape/incest.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

WRT to Shae: I think you're right, that on some level all she did want was a sense of normalcy (marriage,kids,etc) I just don't think she really wanted it with Tyrion.

I think the whole thing with her keeping up with the marriage thing was part of her persona for Tyrion's benefit. He knew he couldn't wed her, no matter how much he might have wanted to, or else she'd end up like Tysha (the one female in his life who actually did care about him) but having her keep expressing her desire for this (I think) is just part of the role she's playing.

As to percentage of male vs female births in Westeros, here's a totally faux-scientific explanation: isn't the gender of a child determined in some part by temperature inside the womb at a given part of the fetuses development? (this is a stretch, I know but bear with me) Could it be possible that in colder climes, boys are more prevalent and in warmer climes females are more prevalent? Dorne = warmer so therefore more women; the North = colder so more males.

Obviously I'm not really espousing this as fact, but it is a possibility, no?