Sexism in ASOIAF?

[Alexia]

Obviously I'm not really espousing this as fact, but it is a possibility, no?

No. Gender is determined by the X or Y chromosone in the man's sperm. The moment an egg is enseminated and the embryo is created, the gender is already determined.

Prostitution does seem like an unusual profession to choose willingly if your only experience with sex up to that point has been rape/incest.

Prostitution is an uncommon profession for any woman to choose willingly. Both currently and historically, brothels are traditionally staffed by slaves. The number of women who choose this as a profession willingly, without outside coercion, is tiny in comparison.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

No. Gender is determined by the X or Y chromosone in the man's sperm. The moment an egg is enseminated and the embryo is created, the gender is already determined.

Actually, it apprently has to do with both the chromosome(I never knew gender was determined so early or immediately upon insemination) and also temperature of the mother immediately before and during ovulation. Here's a web site i just found regarding choosing gender and the roles chromosomes and temperature/timing play.

http://www.babyguideuk.com/ttc/articles/choosing_gender.asp

It's obviously not exactly proven fact, but apparently some people have had good success with some of the methods (of course, it's always still a 50/50 chance either way)

[Datepalm]

Not quite sure where you're going with the issue of recollection, though. With the possible exception of the Tully grandparent generation, we don't have any families included in the calculation where the women have been forgotten; they didn't exist in the first place.

Thats what I meant, more or less - if most women had the same proprtion of having social ties to their own gender that men do, Arya might have gotten a scene where some sassy aunt married to a Mormont shows some sympathy for her tomboyish ways, like Benjen to Jon, and that would have necessitated existence of said aunt.

Interesting list with our own royals, though there too it might be worth while to give a count going a couple generations back - one generation is a single data point in this instance and not enought to discern a trend. I reckon they would even out to 50/50 if we went back a few generations more.

[Alexia]

Actually, it apprently has to do with both the chromosome(I never knew gender was determined so early or immediately upon insemination) and also temperature of the mother immediately before and during ovulation. Here's a web site i just found regarding choosing gender and the roles chromosomes and temperature/timing play.

http://www.babyguideuk.com/ttc/articles/choosing_gender.asp

It's obviously not exactly proven fact, but apparently some people have had good success with some of the methods (of course, it's always still a 50/50 chance either way)

I'm gonna ask my doctor for curiosity but I'm pretty sure its an old wives tale. :) It directly contradicts my high school science classes, we did a whole section on genetics that was pretty interesting and stuck with me.

Here is another link on gender and chromosones that explains how gender is determined.

[Liadin]

As to percentage of male vs female births in Westeros, here's a totally faux-scientific explanation: isn't the gender of a child determined in some part by temperature inside the womb at a given part of the fetuses development? (this is a stretch, I know but bear with me) Could it be possible that in colder climes, boys are more prevalent and in warmer climes females are more prevalent? Dorne = warmer so therefore more women; the North = colder so more males.

Obviously I'm not really espousing this as fact, but it is a possibility, no?

I don't think so. People in cold climates don't have significantly more male children than people in warm climates in real life. Plus, the Sand Snakes are the only exception--Doran's legitimate kids and siblings, as well as Mace's (also pretty far south) are majority male.

@Mieren: You miss the point. In real life (unless you're aborting female babies or using in vitro fertilization), the gender of your children is random. Sure, you can find a bunch of families with mostly male kids, and it's unusual, but so what? Whereas in fiction, the author is actually choosing the gender of every character he creates.

A thought experiment: Suppose I decided to write a book featuring multiple generations of 5-10 families, and some 65-75% of the people in these families were female. Let's also suppose that, while I do give some prominent roles to male characters, I spend a fair bit of page time on relationships between sisters, female cousins, female friends, mothers and daughters, and so on. (In large part this happens because 2/3 of my characters are female--it only makes sense that they're going to interact with one another.) Don't you think people would notice? Can you really argue that this wouldn't get pegged as "women's fiction" or that lots of guys would read it regardless?

Edit: typo

[Mad Monkey]

WRT to Shae: I think you're right, that on some level all she did want was a sense of normalcy (marriage,kids,etc) I just don't think she really wanted it with Tyrion.

It wasn't as if she had a pick of the eligible bachelors of Westeros. Jaime might have been a poor palatable option, but he can't get married and Joffrey, Cersei, or Tywin would never permit that.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

No, but Tyrion was toying with the idea of marrying her to Bronn which definitely would have been a step up from her current situation. There were other options out there, once Tyrion realized he really would have to "let her go", they all just really depended on no one figuring out she was low-born and had been serving as the Imp's personal concubine.

[Datepalm]

It wasn't as if she had a pick of the eligible bachelors of Westeros. Jaime might have been a poor palatable option, but he can't get married and Joffrey, Cersei, or Tywin would never permit that.

Tyrion himself arrived at the conclusion that the best thing he could do for Shae was to marry her to some household knight, he was just never going to go through with it.

[Errant Bard]

Actually, it apprently has to do with both the chromosome

No, it actually doesn't, it just has to do with what Martin wants (seriously, arguing about chromosomes of fictional characters whose hair and eye colours are tied to their family name?). Which is the reason comparisons between gender distribution in reality and in Westeros hold water regarding a possible gender bias of the author. No matter how many half baked explanations you cook up for it to make sense in-story, it doesn't change the discrepancy. In other words it's not because it can makes sense that it's not possibly sexist (or any other mix of authorial motivations).

When I'll write my first comic book where everyone has superpowers, I'll concoct some pseudo-scientific explanation for it. The reason for the superpowers will not be pseudo-science, it will be that I find the idea cool.

(And that applies to the mind-boggling explanations about the happy whores "but they came from the summer islands" for example... It's just adding insult to injury, having a polynesian-like culture that is presented as producing happy whores, because the prejudice is not only on women but on culture too. We talked of Orientalism before, well, that's a good example of this kind of drift)

ETA:

I think you're right. The original point, from the last thread, had more to do with readers' reactions to prostitute characters than the prostitutes themselves. Happy Ent suggested that female readers want to see women like Asha, Arya, and Chataya, and don't want to see women like Catelyn. I don't think that's necessarily true, or that women are any more demanding in what kinds of female characters they want to see than men are regarding male characters

(Young) Men are demanding, that was actually what prompted HE's comment: No, they don't want the father character, nor do they want the wimpy nerd (think Sam), they want the teenage hero, the nerd growing out of his nerdity and getting the chick, the badass sidekick and the heroic sociopath.

If I look at books read by young women, I'm not sure I find many, if any, Catelyns, but whores I do. I would posit it's because the readership hasn't any experience of what whoring is, so characters a bit closer to life hit closer to the centre, with stuff like looking too much like one's mother, whereas whoring takes some sort of romantic aura due to the remoteness, the taboo about sex, the underdog position inherent to the job, and the (perceived) exclusively feminine way to be independent. Well anyway, I don't know, but fact is in SFF, I always tend to notice that you're much more likely to find a happy whore than an active alive parent figure for the heroes.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

I don't think so. People in cold climates don't have significantly more children than people in warm climates in real life. Plus, the Sand Snakes are the only exception--Doran's legitimate kids and siblings, as well as Mace's (also pretty far south) are majority male.

You're right of course, GRRM definitely holds final say over the population of his own world, so if he wants more males for some reason then there are more males.

Of course, if Henry VIII were in this world he'd be ecstatic what with all the male heirs being born left and right. ;)

[Mad Monkey]

No, but Tyrion was toying with the idea of marrying her to Bronn which definitely would have been a step up from her current situation.

Okay, but not by a lot. Bronn is not a very nice person, and I don't think that he would have provided for Shae even if he had agreed to actually marry her.

There were other options out there, once Tyrion realized he really would have to "let her go", they all just really depended on no one figuring out she was low-born and had been serving as the Imp's personal concubine.

That plan doesn't seem very well thought-out.

Tyrion himself arrived at the conclusion that the best thing he could do for Shae was to marry her to some household knight, he was just never going to go through with it.

Of course not. She was his lady wife! Nothing Tywin could do could change that! :love:

[Datepalm]

Of course not. She was his lady wife! Nothing Tywin could do could change that! :love:

Who really, really loved him! Because what all abusive clients deserve is true love. Thus the universe is structured.

[Mad Monkey]

Who really, really loved him! Because what all abusive clients deserve is true love. Thus the universe is structured.

What do you mean, "client"? Tyrion was never Ty-shae's client. They were husband and wife! Have you even thumbed through these books?!

[DizoakiusMaximus]

What do you mean, "client"? Tyrion was never Ty-shae's client. They were husband and wife! Have you even thumbed through these books?!

<snort> LOL.

[Datepalm]

What do you mean, "client"? Tyrion was never Ty-shae's client. They were husband and wife! Have you even thumbed through these books?!

And wasn't she just the perfect wife though? Demure in the house and feisty between the sheets...

Actually, I don't think Tyrions fantasies in his Hand days ran to marriage. I get a more James Bondy sort of vibe from him there - hes the king of the heap, the coolest, cleverest man in the city, and hes got this cool, sexy minx of a woman to go with it. Marriage is far too bland and domestic for that. The way he views Shae reminds me of the way Heinlein wrote women - simultaneously liberated and subservient, loving sex becuase a man can show them how great it is.

[Mad Monkey]

I get a more James Bondy sort of vibe from him there - hes the king of the heap, the coolest, cleverest man in the city, and hes got this cool, sexy minx of a woman to go with it.

I noticed that too. In fact, that's not even a vibe. That's a direct quote from the book!

Tyrion nipped at her small hard nipple and nestled his head on her shoulder. He did not pull out of her; would that he never had to pull out of her. “This is no dream,” he promised her. It is real, all of it, he thought, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game, and me in the center of it . . . me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it . . .

He didn't call her a "minx", but if that chapter had lasted longer he would have!

but I also thought that he was unintentionally conflating Tysha with Shae. He believed that they were both prostitutes, they both seemed to be in love with him, and even their names are almost the same (Tysha-e or Ty-shae). This might have been the root of his fascination with prostitutes in general too. He probably doesn't think this consciously, but all prostitutes seem to blend together with his wife, and not in a rude way either.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

I noticed that too, but I also thought that he was unintentionally conflating Tysha with Shae. He believed that they were both prostitutes, they both seemed to be in love with him, and even their names are almost the same (Tysha-e or Ty-shae). This might have been the root of his fascination with prostitutes in general too. He probably doesn't think this consciously, but all prostitutes seem to blend together with his wife, and not in a rude way either.

Good point. Not to mention that after Tysha, the only women who would even look at him without recoiling in horror at the thought of sleeping with him were working girls. It's not likely Tyrion would have likely found an acceptable wife (acceptable to Tywin that is) on his own, and even an arranged marriage would likely just be a facade while either party went about their real business.

[Liadin]

Still, he views prostitutes in such an objectified way. I was especially put off by his musing, "Can a whore ever truly love anyone?" or something along that line. Sure, a whore probably isn't going to fall in love with one of her clients, but he's not even considering the possibility that she might have a life outside of that--there's nothing to stop her loving her children, siblings, parents, friends, etc. There's not even anything to stop her falling in love with a man.... it's just not going to be Tyrion. I would expect whores to place a premium on men who actually prioritize the woman's pleasure, although I have no evidence to back that up.

[Datepalm]

I noticed that too, but I also thought that he was unintentionally conflating Tysha with Shae. He believed that they were both prostitutes, they both seemed to be in love with him, and even their names are almost the same (Tysha-e or Ty-shae). This might have been the root of his fascination with prostitutes in general too. He probably doesn't think this consciously, but all prostitutes seem to blend together with his wife, and not in a rude way either.

Yeah, but I think what hes conciously doing is trying to get out from Tyshas shadow and the influence she had on him - that naive, desperate boyish infatuation that let her (and Tywin, and Jaime, and the Garrison, and everyone) make such a fool of him. So with Shae - hes in control. Shes in love with him, and he has her because he wants to. Ofcourse, the only person hes really defying is Tywin. There too, Tysha has so little personality and fleshing out in Tyrions memories...its not about her, or even the way he felt about her, but slightly about how she made him feel, and mostly all about his relashionship with Tywin. Shae has plenty of personality...he just ignores it and stuffs her into his Tywin defying fantasy.

(this goes back to my problem with a lot of GRRMs idealized romances with dead/missing women - like Rhaegar/Lyanna, theres not enough character fleshed out for it to be convincing, since I know GRRM can do perfectly vivid, well rounded women and men both.)

[Mad Monkey]

(this goes back to my problem with a lot of GRRMs idealized romances with dead/missing women - like Rhaegar/Lyanna, theres not enough character fleshed out for it to be convincing, since I know GRRM can do perfectly vivid, well rounded women and men both.)

Hopefully we'll get a flashback or a reminiscence about Lyanna from someone who isn't still grieving. It's hard to get a really well-rounded description from bereaved, and seeing from someone who knew her but isn't still grieving will help make her more "real".

Shae has plenty of personality...he just ignores it and stuffs her into his Tywin defying fantasy.

I wonder if he would have brought her to court if Tywin hadn't specifically commanded him not to. I never really got why he insisted; there's a well-respected and prestigious brothel ( :rofl: ) ... in King's Landing. Tywin only forbid him Shae; if he had wanted to comply, he could have gone to Chataya's instead. Your explanation makes a lot of sense, because quite frankly I don't see why Shae was so important that he would risk his career and possibly her life.