WoW - March to Gnomer

[Shryke]

And I also noted that MM Hunters do an insanely big amount, top end, more damage than enhancement shamans. To be exact the bis list at EJ for a MM Hunter lists 15054dps, while the bis list for enhancement lists 12652dps. That's 18.9% more. That's a big number. I see pugs do way less than the difference (2.4K) between those too numbers. Now I can't find a flat out number on EJ for theoretical DK DPS, but I'm positive that the number is higher than 12652. That 12652 number includes the mild buff to flurry that hasn't yet come into play too, by the way.

GK is saying that he wants the best player to 'win' as it were. I'm saying that the best class is 'winning' at the moment.

Your counter-whine is the biggest problem in outlining any complaint. I make a legitimate complaint about my class's dps and usefulness and immediately a load of trolls show up and whine about how I'm obviously whining.

Jesus, martyr complex much?

Bitching about not being the Special Bloodlust Child anymore is not gonna solve any of the actual problems you described.

[Weak With The Dawn]

I didn't say they were miles above everyone. I said that :

-Top end DK damage is more than top end shaman damage.

-DKs have a lot more armour and a lot more health -> far more survivability than shamans.

-Frost DKs in paticular bring many of the same buffs as enhancement shamans.

Shamans are not as good as they can be, that's a fact, but that has nothing to do with the Hybrid Tax. The class just doesn't scale as well, it was poor design. Ideally (per Blizzard) if Hybrid Tax existed in a perfect world, all hybrids would be 5% lower then all pures. Obviously this will never happen because maintaining perfect balance is impossible when changing anything about a class can alter the way it interacts with other game mechanics.

You are getting a 5% buff in the near future, this proves that they understand that your output is lower then what they want.

However none of this has to do with the hybrid tax that you're up in arms against. All that means is that you will consistently be lower then Mages, Hunters, Rogues and Warlocks of equal gear and skill because you have the option of becoming a more important Raid Role should you so choose without rerolling another toon.

[Shryke]

It's not 5% either. There is no fixed number for it.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677330431&sid=1

[Nathanael]

Jesus, martyr complex much?

Bitching about not being the Special Bloodlust Child anymore is not gonna solve any of the actual problems you described.

Exactly. If anything, it means Blizz will have to prioritize making sure enhance and elemental dps is up to par. Right now, it's something they'd like to fix, but when they're trying to decide what to work on next, they can always think "It'd be nice to fix shaman dps . . . but even if we don't get to that today, at least they've got a guaranteed spot with bloodlust . . . "

I'll admit, finding a shaman is one of the things I hate most about building a raid.

Re: Unholy DKs

Yeah, I love how no one ever remembers that one. That's one of things I love about being unholy dps - I get to be all smug about how I'm stealth-buffing all the other DKs even if they top me in the meters (and the shadow priests too, as a bonus!).

[Poobah]

Jesus, martyr complex much?

Jesus, moody bastard much?

Bitching about not being the Special Bloodlust Child anymore is not gonna solve any of the actual problems you described.

I'm up in arms about not being the "Special Bloodlust Child" any more, and "Hybrid Tax" because those are the top two excuses brought out every time someone complains about shaman dps either Blizzard or a member of the gaggle of sycophants who like to loiter around such issues.

Thus. My point. If you like I'll try to keep both the words and sentences nice and short.

Point one : If I suggest that shaman dps is bad then people come back and say that I bring bloodlust so I shouldn't complain.

Now we have two things together which contribute to moving the argument to the next stage. I'm confident that together we can get through it though!

First : Shamans will no longer be "special bloodlust child" so you can no longer tell me "aw special bloodlust child, quit complaining about your dps, you have bloodlust".

Second : You brought up "bring the player not the class".

These two things lead me on to my complaints about my class in comparison with other dps classes. My point then is that shaman dps being what it is at this time suffers from the opposite problem. With the exception of shamans it's bring the class not the player, only the shaman dps specs need an exceptional player to make them worth bringing, because relatively their dps sucks?

We clear?

The point is : In cata we need to be doing dps on par with other classes, so we need to be fixed. Kthx?

[Weak With The Dawn]

The point is : In cata we need to be doing dps on par with other classes, so we need to be fixed. Kthx?

I really think it's safe to say they're working towards this.

Considering the number of viable raid/PvP specs in WOTLK versus Vanilla, they've obviously turned their eyes towards making things more balanced for everyone, and as was said earlier, by giving another class Blood Lust and removing your niche, they've made it more imperative for themselves as well as the players to get shamans up to where they are a more competitive class since they can no longer use Blood Lust as an excuse to gloss over or tax the class.

[Kalbear]

I would think shamans would be thrilled another class is getting a bloodlust, because now the excuse 'but you provide bloodlust' cannot be remotely fair when comparing damage and healing. You must be competitive from your actual DPS/raid buffs/healing without the crutch of bloodlust looming. That's good.

[Darkostar]

So, as a Hunter, I wasn't really wowed by any of the minor changes (the new skills sound good for PvP though).

But because of the BIG changes (focus, no ammo)I feel like the Star Trek reboot: same basic concept, TOTALLY different interpretation.

The no ammo thing really bugs me. You're telling me that the best solution was to remove the slot completely? We couldn't get buff skills, like one to bosst damage but with a slower rate of fire, or a shot with DoTs applied?

I like that each spec seems to bring something to the table now, with the reworking of pet skills and BM getting a new dump. But a lot of this is still on paper, we'll have to see if it's executed well. More than any other class, the future of the Hunter is hell of murky.

My Spriest will be Life gripping raid wiping douchebags into packs of mobs. I am not ashamed of this.

With the new changes, I'm considering rolling a cat and a mage come Cataclysm, in addition to the Warlock and Fury Goblin I was already planning on.

Edit: Oh right, I have a DK, too. Very indifferent on those changes: it's not like the class was hard or anything. Feel like it wasn't broke, why fix it?

[RaceBannon42]

I'm bitching because they are giving away our iconic class ability. You know like druid shifting out of CC is an iconic class ability which is why they didn't implement it on Ghost Wolf. What else do we have? Totems? Frankly they are a pain in the ass. immobile 30' range buffs, none of which are even unique. I dont see them giving other classes Traps, or Blink, Cloak of Shadows, or Vanish, or Bubble.

[Shryke]

Jesus, moody bastard much?

I'm up in arms about not being the "Special Bloodlust Child" any more, and "Hybrid Tax" because those are the top two excuses brought out every time someone complains about shaman dps either Blizzard or a member of the gaggle of sycophants who like to loiter around such issues.

Thus. My point. If you like I'll try to keep both the words and sentences nice and short.

Point one : If I suggest that shaman dps is bad then people come back and say that I bring bloodlust so I shouldn't complain.

Now we have two things together which contribute to moving the argument to the next stage. I'm confident that together we can get through it though!

First : Shamans will no longer be "special bloodlust child" so you can no longer tell me "aw special bloodlust child, quit complaining about your dps, you have bloodlust".

Second : You brought up "bring the player not the class".

These two things lead me on to my complaints about my class in comparison with other dps classes. My point then is that shaman dps being what it is at this time suffers from the opposite problem. With the exception of shamans it's bring the class not the player, only the shaman dps specs need an exceptional player to make them worth bringing, because relatively their dps sucks?

We clear?

The point is : In cata we need to be doing dps on par with other classes, so we need to be fixed. Kthx?

Neither being a Hybrid nor Loosing the exclusivity of Bloodlust have anything to do with Shamans being, apparently, behind the DPS curve. If someone tells you this, they are a moron.

I'm bitching because they are giving away our iconic class ability. You know like druid shifting out of CC is an iconic class ability which is why they didn't implement it on Ghost Wolf. What else do we have? Totems? Frankly they are a pain in the ass. immobile 30' range buffs, none of which are even unique. I dont see them giving other classes Traps, or Blink, Cloak of Shadows, or Vanish, or Bubble.

You mean your iconic class ability that you didn't get till the first expansion and that is, bar none, the greatest raid buff in the game?

The only crazy thing here is that it took them this long to spread it around.

You should feel lucky you got to be special through all of WOTLK cause realistically it should have been first on the block when buff normalization happened.

[Angeleyes]

Yeah, I would echo some of Shryke's sentiments in that you have to take a healthy dose of this information as a grain of salt, while understanding it in the context of normalization of DPS abilities.

Blizzard is getting better, not worse. They understand. I promise that they are looking for parity, and with the great reset of Azeroth known as Cataclysm they will be able to level everyone out.

People are getting all worked up because in a couple of months a couple of spells may or may not be implemented, and they are applying that in the context of the WotLK raid environment.

I understand. We were doing ICC 10 today and waited 15 minutes because no shamans were online at the time. We ended up taking an alt resto shaman, pretty much meaning we couldn't do many meaningful attempts in heroic modes merely because of Bloodlust. I'm not convinced it was the right call, but that is what we did. Is BL that meaningful in the grand scheme of things if you aren't brushing up against berserk timers? Tough to say.

The point, if I have one is that in Cata people may be stacking enh shamans because Blizz went through and changed COEFFICIENTS ON SPELLS. And since the boarder formerly known as Race is so pro and can hit all 10 buttons to eke out 95% of possible DPS, maybe he'll be a cut above any other spec in the game. Who the hell knows?

Please stop getting worked up about how your new spells will conflict with current rotations or DPS, or that god forbid there will exist more buff parity. Yes, if Blizzard came in tomorrow and just gave all mages Time Stop I would agree, shamans would be even less competitive. That would be a shame, which is why they haven't.

Blizzard understands. They are trying to make this game fun. One way to make it fun is to be able to take a mage or a shaman into a raid instead of spamming trade for the first pug shaman over x gearscore that can hit the Lust button at the agreed upon time.

Do you see why that is a better gameplay experience? I do. They are concerned, they are concerned for you. They are concerned FOR you. They are concerned so you don't have to be. Lets all be excited for cata folks, not afraid of what could go horribly wrong.

[Angeleyes]

I'm bitching because they are giving away our iconic class ability. You know like druid shifting out of CC is an iconic class ability which is why they didn't implement it on Ghost Wolf. What else do we have? Totems? Frankly they are a pain in the ass. immobile 30' range buffs, none of which are even unique. I dont see them giving other classes Traps, or Blink, Cloak of Shadows, or Vanish, or Bubble.

I hope you're refering to priest bubbles, and not what paladins call bubbles right, right?

I would also think that the new spirit weapon cooldown is more in sync with being a Shaman in general and could be pretty awesome. Maybe I'm the only shaman player here who forgets to imbue his weapons all the time, but I always felt like it was a pain, do it in a specific order, somehow if I get Flametongue on the main hand I gotta use earthliving to reset what goes where... But now they are bringing 'enhancement' part of shaman weapon enhancement back into the game, which I think is cool.

What would be super cool is if you could have a 3 minute cooldown type spell where you could give windfury weapon to your entire party for say 15 seconds. Maybe I'm just me, and I've been guilty of that before, but I think that those weapon buffs are something that no other class has, or will have, and the fact that Bliz is bringing them back to the forefront feels cool.

[Mack Kilimaro]

I think it is probably difficult for someone who is a longtime shaman player to appreciate just how difficult it is to find a shaman sometimes, particularly if you are talking about a ten-man raid - although even in BC, if you were playing Alliance, having one shaman in your 25 man raid was not a guarantee depending on how lucky you were with recruiting. My old guild was not particularly lucky. I'm sure it feels like the cliched "Blizzard slap in the face", but if you ask me, giving someone else bloodlust should have been something everyone bitched about for Wrath, not for Cataclysm. I will not miss the days of, "Damn, if we only had a shaman on tonight..."

[TerraPrime]

Bloodlust makes or breaks a raid?

Really?

Okay, I guess.

[Azazis]

no treemo posts yet?

The directions they are taking the classes are promising in most cases. Keep in mind that Cata isnt even in beta yet, and during beta at least half of these abilities will be axed or drasticly reworked if the previous betas are any indication.

Im more puzzled by why Paladin info is released a week later. They couldve posponed these class previews by a week easily, so Im expecting a bombshell heavier then ToL being reworked. My money is on Bubble removal, the big Paladin crutch.

I'd safe the nerdrage for when we get closer to actual retail release or at least till we see it in action during beta.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Does bloodlust make or break any given raid? No. But I think that you're at a bit of a disadvantage in progression raiding if you don't have bloodlust in your raid. This matters less in the present scheme of things with present gear levels and especially the ICC buff. But at times where you progress through DPS gear check fights, and you're right on the edge (or a bit behind) and you've got no bloodlust - that sucks. Ulduar Keeper hard modes at level, ToGC at level, for instance, I think you'd notice if you were lacking a shaman and you were trying to rack up your guild first kill. I'm glad to see that love spread around a little.

[TerraPrime]

Does bloodlust make or break any given raid? No. But I think that you're at a bit of a disadvantage in progression raiding if you don't have bloodlust in your raid. This matters less in the present scheme of things with present gear levels and especially the ICC buff. But at times where you progress through DPS gear check fights, and you're right on the edge (or a bit behind) and you've got no bloodlust - that sucks. Ulduar Keeper hard modes at level, ToGC at level, for instance, I think you'd notice if you were lacking a shaman and you were trying to rack up your guild first kill. I'm glad to see that love spread around a little.

Oh, I can believe that it will make a difference in fights.

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant, people decide to start a raid or not based on whether they have shamans or not? As in, "oh look, we can't find a shaman, so raid is off tonight." I've seen raids called off due to bad class balance, as in, only 1 ranged dps, or no interrupts, or no tank healers. But a single shaman? Guess I just haven't been raiding that much.

[Angeleyes]

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant, people decide to start a raid or not based on whether they have shamans or not? As in, "oh look, we can't find a shaman, so raid is off tonight."

Seems to happen with me all the time... I don't think Lust is a make or break thing, but a lot of people are willing to wait a really long time to have it. Dunno why, maybe it is that awesome for DPS, but as a healer Lust never really has a whole lotta impact.

[Shryke]

It's mostly a matter of:

"We need 1 more"

"Get a Shaman."

"I've got this Shadow Priest."

"Get a Shaman."

<10 minutes pass>

"Shadow Priest still wants to go."

<a few more minutes>

"Found a Shaman!"

/shaman joins the raid

"Woot, let's start this!"

[Poobah]

My server has a plethora of shamans, or so it seems, speaking as one. Most of them are very bad though. Very very bad.