The Judging Eye VII

[Spastic Plastic]

Oh, thanks for the links.

I like how Bakker goes the Tolkien route by using language reminiscent of the culture; they have "Patridomos" in Momemn and "Padirajah" in Kian. For some reason, "Shriah" immediately gave me a religious-fundamentalist vibe.

I notice those tiny details on the re-reads.

[Nerdanel]

As I've briefly mentioned earlier, I think Andiamine Heights, especially after Kellhus made changes to it, is intentionally constructed to be a miniature model of Dante's view of the universe. The luxurious palace represents Heaven and the vast torture chambers beneath are Hell. Both are shaped like a cone or a pyramid, one normal, the other inverted. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that both the palace and the dungeons have nine floors in all and that just like Kellhus and those closest to him live at the top, the worst traitors get consigned to the very bottom level.

Even how the people in the palace can come view the people in the dungeons from a distance has a scriptural basis.

That kind of thing is making it more plausible that Kellhus really is the God in the small just like he claims to be. But since Kellhus is evil, that would suggest that the God of Eärwa is evil too, which... makes sense. One interesting bit in TJE has Kellhus defend parental abuse. It is noteworthy that Kellhus sees the worldborn as children, but he is not a caring "father". Instead, he sees the "children" as his property to do with as he wishes.

[Spastic Plastic]

shameless bump

I have a problem visualizing the Conriyans and also the country of the Scarlet Spires (effeminate guys, oiled square beards, write in pictograms).

[akh]

So, last night I statrted reading a fictional (non-biblical) account of the life and death of Jesus, and I read the hill on which he was crucified was called Golgotha. I knew this before, but it was one of those things I had forgotten until I read it.

Bakker seems to like to play with words, for example Inri Sejenus. Inri is the Latin abbreviation supposedly nailed above Jesus' head and Sejenus is basically Jesus' name scrambled with an extra e and n. He likes to play with historical events and stories as well. Kellhus being about the same age Jesus is supposed to be when he began his teachings. The prophet Angeshrael sacrificing his son, similar to Abraham almost sacrificing his son (sacrificing the son is found in the TTT glossary under Mount Kinsureah).

Back to my point. I couldn't help but notice there was a similarity between Golgotha and Golgotterath. Take out the "tter" and flip the r and a and you have Golgotha. Normally I'm not the kind of person to focus lettering like this since it kind of comes off as crackpot-ish, but there is precedent in the text with Sejenus.

I know Kellhus already went through the dying (almost) and the "resurrection" in the Warrior Prophet, but maybe at the end of the Aspect-Emperor trilogy, once the Great Ordeal reaches Golgotterath, Kellhus is killed and resurrected. You know, either as the God or as the No-God, whichever theory is correct about Kellhus' true nature. Or, for those who believe that Kellhus will become the No-God or at least join the Consult, where Golgotha was the place where Jesus was sacrificed to save the souls of the world, Golgotterath will be where Kellhus sacrifices the world to save his soul.

Or it may mean nothing and Bakker just came up with Golgotterath as an awesome "evil fortress" name and means nothing to the overall events of the story.

Well Incariol sounds kinda like Iscariot. So who do we know of the Nonmen that's a huge traitor. x)

[Deluge]

Well Incariol sounds kinda like Iscariot. So who do we know of the Nonmen that's a huge traitor. x)

Do you mean Mekeritrig or Nin'janjin? Because in my mind, I completely understand why Nin'janjin betrayed Cu'jara Cinmoi. I mean, Nin'janjin begged him for aid when the Inchoroi landed, only to have Cinmoi invade his territory.

[Spastic Plastic]

The Nonmen hate Cujara-Cinmoi more than Ninjanjin, because it was him that released the Inchoroi from Golgotterath and had them "banish death from my people". Then all their women died.

[Jussi]

Orbit is now saying April 2011 for White-Luck Warrior release:

http://www.littlebrown.co.uk/Title/9781841495392

It used to be March, so this isn't a big delay.

[Nerdanel]

The Nonmen hate Cujara-Cinmoi more than Ninjanjin, because it was him that released the Inchoroi from Golgotterath and had them "banish death from my people". Then all their women died.

If I'm right, the Nonmen knew very well they were all damned after death anyway, so immortality must have sounded a very good deal to them. In that case I don't think they'd blame Cû'jara Cinmoi that much, as they'd have done the same thing in his place. And anyway, I don't remember hearing about the immortality not being voluntary, especially with Cûjara Cinmoi not being the supreme ruler of all Nonmen. The Nonmen let the Inchoroi make them immortal because they wanted to.

[Calibandar]

Just got my Locus Magazine and to me enormous pleasure it says in the "Deals and Deliveries" section that R. Scott Bakker has handed in The White-Luck Warrior to his editor Darren Nash at Orbit UK.

So the book is done, and the new April date is probably definitive then.

[shortstark]

Just got my Locus Magazine and to me enormous pleasure it says in the "Deals and Deliveries" section that R. Scott Bakker has handed in The White-Luck Warrior to his editor Darren Nash at Orbit UK.

So the book is done, and the new April date is probably definitive then.

Now THAT is some great news, good ol scott regular like clockwork (somewhat :rolleyes:)

[Vethnar]

A thing that was puzzling me while reading TJE:

Kellhus' fictional backstory in the first trilogy was that he was a prince of Atrithau. It's hard to believe that this lie is still tenable twenty years later (it seemed to be cracking already towards the end of TWP), as Atrithau clearly isn't completely isolated from the rest of the world. Moreover, in TJE Maithanet appears to be officially recognized as Kellhus's brother, which is obviously incompatible with the old Atrithau story.

What's the official party line about Kellhus's and Maithanet's origin at the time of TJE?

[Shryke]

A thing that was puzzling me while reading TJE:

Kellhus' fictional backstory in the first trilogy was that he was a prince of Atrithau. It's hard to believe that this lie is still tenable twenty years later (it seemed to be cracking already towards the end of TWP), as Atrithau clearly isn't completely isolated from the rest of the world. Moreover, in TJE Maithanet appears to be officially recognized as Kellhus's brother, which is obviously incompatible with the old Atrithau story.

What's the official party line about Kellhus's and Maithanet's origin at the time of TJE?

Does it say he's officially recognized as Kellhus' brother? I mean, the people close to him know and he's an important figure in his own right so it's not weird that he's in the inner circle.

And I'm guessing Kellhus spun some lie or other to fix up any questions about his origins. Once you've been acknowledged as a living god, it's probably not that hard to get people to ignore inconsistencies in your previous story.

[Vethnar]

Does it say he's officially recognized as Kellhus' brother? I mean, the people close to him know and he's an important figure in his own right so it's not weird that he's in the inner circle.

I'm not sure it states directly that he's officially recognized as Kellhus' brother, but it's very strongly implied. Even Kellhus' youngest children refer to Maithanet as their uncle, and I doubt that Kellhus would give young children information like this if he wanted to keep it secret. Also, the character and faction glossary at the end of the book seems to describe what is commonly believed in the Kellian empire, and not what the reader knows as fact. Most notably, it lists Moenghus as "son of Kellhus and his first wife, Serwe", which we know to be wrong. In this list, Maithanet is described as Kellhus' half-brother.

And I'm guessing Kellhus spun some lie or other to fix up any questions about his origins. Once you've been acknowledged as a living god, it's probably not that hard to get people to ignore inconsistencies in your previous story.

As we all know, he is far from universally acknowledged as a living god.I think it would be hard for him to get everyone to ignore inconsistencies in his previous story, and that a backstory that actually makes sense would be very important. I'd like to know what new lie(s) he has spun, and how he explains away the untenable Atrithau story.

[Darzin]

I can't wait for spring with both White Luck Warrior, and HBO's A Game of Thrones coming out its going to be awesome. :thumbsup:

[Old Nan]

Even Kellhus' youngest children refer to Maithanet as their uncle, and I doubt that Kellhus would give young children information like this if he wanted to keep it secret.

It's hardly uncommon in our world for children to describe a close friend of their parents as an uncle or aunt, and it's possible a similar habit occurs in Kellhus's case, where, additionally, Maithanet is probably the only person Kellhus and Esmenet trust who isn't a servant or bodyguard.

[Happy Ent]

A propos Kellhus, here’s a neat story I stumbled upon recently: der Kluge Hans (Clever Hans), a horse that was able to perform arithmetic such as addition:

After a formal investigation in 1907, psychologist Oskar Pfungst demonstrated that the horse was not actually performing these mental tasks, but was watching the reaction of his human observers. Pfungst discovered this artifact in the research methodology, wherein the horse was responding directly to involuntary cues in the body language of the human trainer, who had the faculties to solve each problem. The trainer was entirely unaware that he was providing such cues.

This is relation to our disbelief that Kellhus would be able to divine the facial expressions of Inrau by interacting with Akka.

Horses can do it! And Kluge Hans does sound a bit like Kellhus, doesn’t it?

[Old Nan]

It is a truth universally acknowledged (except by Siuan Sanche) that horses are cleverer and more empathetic than human beings, and ponies most of all.

[Shryke]

A propos Kellhus, here’s a neat story I stumbled upon recently: der Kluge Hans (Clever Hans), a horse that was able to perform arithmetic such as addition:

This is relation to our disbelief that Kellhus would be able to divine the facial expressions of Inrau by interacting with Akka.

Horses can do it! And Kluge Hans does sound a bit like Kellhus, doesn’t it?

This is how all those "Animals that can do math" or whatever work as far as I know.

[nerd123]

This is the most recent The Judging Eye thread that I could find, and I'd like to know what people think of two possibilities that I haven't seen discussed yet:

i) I think Kelmomas might be close to a full-blood Dunyain in abilities, unlike his siblings and Maithanet. Although this makes no real-world biological sense, I think it could be that nearly all the feeling-human genes went to Samarmas whereas Kellhus got all the modified Dunyain genes. This might explain why he's more of a problem than Kellhus's other children.

ii) It seems a big oversight on Kellhus's part that he doesn't check in with his kids; presumably, if he spent some time with Kelmomas he might realize that the kid was causing trouble. Unless Kellhus means for Kelmomas to do what he's doing for some unfathomable reason, it seems like Kellhus is making a pretty big mistake, especially since he can just transport back between Mommenn and the ordeal without much trouble. I'm wondering if the great Kellhuss isn't actually in a wee bit of denial about the fact that his children are monsters. Maybe he realizes on some level that Samarmas was murdered, and probably by Kelmomas. But because he feels just a little bit guilty about giving Esmenet such freak children, he subconsciously doesn't really want to see the truth written in hid kids faces, so he avoids them. Could a Dunyain be capable of such self-deception after 20 years in the world?

Also, here's a fun versus question I was thinking about: could Gandalf and Mycroft Holmes beat Kellhuss if they teamed up?

[Amun]

i) I think Kelmomas might be close to a full-blood Dunyain in abilities, unlike his siblings and Maithanet. Although this makes no real-world biological sense, I think it could be that nearly all the feeling-human genes went to Samarmas whereas Kellhus got all the modified Dunyain genes. This might explain why he's more of a problem than Kellhus's other children.

If I remember it right, I would say that Kelmomas isn't emotionless like a full-blooded Dunyain would be. Kelmomas murders Samarmas because he is jealous and he wants to be Esmenet's favorite. He has strong feelings of wanting to be loved. I don't know if he actually loves Esmenet back though. He manipulates people like a Dunyain might, but it is all for emotional reasons.

What isn't known is what is what that voice in his head actually is. It claims to be Samarmas at one point, but I don't know if that's possible in Bakker's world. In my opinion it is either a god/demon of some sort, or Consult shenanigans.