The Judging Eye VII

[kuenjato]

This is the most recent The Judging Eye thread that I could find, and I'd like to know what people think of two possibilities that I haven't seen discussed yet:

i) I think Kelmomas might be close to a full-blood Dunyain in abilities, unlike his siblings and Maithanet. Although this makes no real-world biological sense, I think it could be that nearly all the feeling-human genes went to Samarmas whereas Kellhus got all the modified Dunyain genes. This might explain why he's more of a problem than Kellhus's other children.

ii) It seems a big oversight on Kellhus's part that he doesn't check in with his kids; presumably, if he spent some time with Kelmomas he might realize that the kid was causing trouble. Unless Kellhus means for Kelmomas to do what he's doing for some unfathomable reason, it seems like Kellhus is making a pretty big mistake, especially since he can just transport back between Mommenn and the ordeal without much trouble. I'm wondering if the great Kellhuss isn't actually in a wee bit of denial about the fact that his children are monsters. Maybe he realizes on some level that Samarmas was murdered, and probably by Kelmomas. But because he feels just a little bit guilty about giving Esmenet such freak children, he subconsciously doesn't really want to see the truth written in hid kids faces, so he avoids them. Could a Dunyain be capable of such self-deception after 20 years in the world?

Also, here's a fun versus question I was thinking about: could Gandalf and Mycroft Holmes beat Kellhuss if they teamed up?

As revealed in his conversation with Esme, Kellhus doesn't care about much except the Shortest Path: either annihilating the Consult before they can raise the No-God, or.... something else. (personally, I theorize he wants the tekne or whatever it was that 'birthed' the No-God to aid him in overthrowing the God). The death of his retarded child is little more than a blip of no-importance, other than it upsets Esme and she needs to be course-corrected so that nothing interfears with the grain shipments to the Great Ordeal.

Frankly, I wonder how Kellhus plans on destroying the Horns and getting back before winter. If, and I mean If, his plan is in lines with the first option listed above.

Also, it is stated that teleporting that far is a major strain on Kellhus (he nearly collapses) and that's only from Condia. I doubt he'll be popping in much more in the future.

[nerd123]

Kellhus doesn't care about much except the Shortest Path...

So it would seem, but we haven't gotten a POV from him in quite awhile, and we know that he experienced genuine, human anguish on the Circumfix. He's not a Vulcan, incapable of feeling (and hence self-deception). I'd be surprised if he genuinely felt nothing at all for his kids.

[Ereinion]

It's certainly strange that someone who is so obsessed with getting children, doesn't seem to care about those children at all. Although at this point it looks like he only cares about getting to Golgotterath, the only children he has any use for are those that can serve some function in the military. Kelmomas is too young, he can't use him in the Great Ordeal, so he is of no use. (of course, that begs the question, why even have more children if they can't be of use during the Great Ordeal?)

[Galactus]

I'm still wondring what the Dunyian are trying to DO.

They're trying to create a "self-moving soul", right? A being that is not bound by "The darkness thta comes before"; IE: Basically someone without prejudice (in the true sense) who can make decisions based on what *is* and not his history.

And they're doing this via a breeding programme and training.

Isn't there a contradiction there?

[pat5150]

From the beginning, the plan has been for the Great Ordeal to winter in Golgotterath. Assuming it can get there and destroy the Consult in time...

Patrick

[gladius]

From the beginning, the plan has been for the Great Ordeal to winter in Golgotterath.

winter + topos = wonderful experience

[kuenjato]

So it would seem, but we haven't gotten a POV from him in quite awhile, and we know that he experienced genuine, human anguish on the Circumfix. He's not a Vulcan, incapable of feeling (and hence self-deception). I'd be surprised if he genuinely felt nothing at all for his kids.

He experienced human emotion fairly early on, when Cnaiur first rapes Serwe. He questions it and 'moves on.' As for the relentless drive for children? Perhaps to forge a mini-me or a whole brood of them. We don't know. RSB is holding his cards very close to his chest, and will continue to do so until book 3, when presumably all will be revealed (as the Zeumi prince alluded to Sorweel).

[Kalbear]

As revealed in his conversation with Esme, Kellhus doesn't care about much except the Shortest Path: either annihilating the Consult before they can raise the No-God, or.... something else.

Don't take what he says to Esme as anything other than the lies it undoubtedly is.

[Rhadamanth]

I'm still wondring what the Dunyian are trying to DO.They're trying to create a "self-moving soul", right? A being that is not bound by "The darkness thta comes before"; IE: Basically someone without prejudice (in the true sense) who can make decisions based on what *is* and not his history.And they're doing this via a breeding programme and training.Isn't there a contradiction there?

I'm not sure about all the training but isn't most of it an effort to master themselves? They train themselves to ignore the feelings they possess which might otherwise control them. That whole "Logos is without beginning or end" episode is to make sure the trainee can master his thoughts, to a degree. The breeding program is so that they can change the makeup of the soul which the Dunyain believe to be flawed. I suppose the overall design is that training oneself can reshape part of the soul which can then be transferred to children. Maybe the Dunyain have a way to measure the changes of the soul and match them to others who can complement those changes. Perhaps Kellhus saw a flaw in this plan which is one reason he seems to have given up on it. Then again we don't really know why he's allowing Akka to find the Dunyain, assuming he is anyway, since he seems to be at odds with their goal in some ways.

[Curethan]

We don't really know what a 'full dunyain' is. I doubt Kellhus can be taken as a good example. If the dunyain goals are reliably presented, Kellhus would have been as close as they have come to making a self-moving soul. For them to use him to counter Moenghus indicates that he was superflous to further progress, highly unlikely unless they have more Anasurimbor genetic stock or there is dome other flaw in Kellhus that makes his issue unlikely to be of use. I suspect Kellhus' children would all be useless - perhaps he lacks the training required to reliably select a geneticly compatible mate. Also, I think that like Mimara, Kellhus has the judging eye (based on him believing he can rewrite scripture and the fact that he could talk to Seswatha through Akka reminds me of what Mimara does at the end of TJE.

Certainly don't think Kelmomas is dunyain material. From what we know of the conditioning as presented in PON, Kelmomas and his twin would very likely have been labeled 'defective' at birth and destroyed.

Re: dunyain goals. There's clearly plenty we aint been told there. Seems likely to me that they were established by Seswatha's machinations in order to thwart the consult. The Mandate hold the Celmoman prophecies and Seswatha's dreams, the Dunyain have the Anasurimbor genetics and the necesary training. The Mandate are directed by clearly unreliable messages from Seswatha and the dunyain are a supersecret sect that doesn't know its origins or goals, yet happen to live in the most secure and well hidden place on Earwa that only Seswatha knew about and co-incidentaly produce the prophecied harbinger, trained up with all the tools necessary to give the consult a real fight... seems like a Xanatos gambit to me.

I hope we get a flashback to Kellhus' conversation with Seswatha at some point.

[Rhadamanth]

I'm wondering if souls take the place of genetics in Bakkerland. I'm also thinking that one reason Kellhus was allowed to leave is that he's already got kids in Ishual. I'm guessing that late 20s is about the age that Dunyain reproduce, at least the males, since Kellhus was very young when Moenghus left and we know that was 30 years before Kellhus left. Perhaps after that, the only function of adults is to train the next generation so the loss of a few isn't so great as long as the line is continued.

I can see why Moenghus had kids, he thought they'd be Dunyain too until he found out that wasn't true, but I guess the reasons Kellhus had kids are that it's expected of him and he needs them to prepare the way for his true successor, if he has one and doesn't actually become God.

[kuenjato]

Don't take what he says to Esme as anything other than the lies it undoubtedly is.

It's not so much what he says to her, rather the immense 10 year labor of the Great Ordeal itself. This is to a specific purpose. Either 1) to annihilate the Consult, as he says to Esme (heh, right), 2) to make the Consult's task easier (seems he could do this in more efficient ways...) or 3) "something" to his own purpose. If Kellhus isn't insane and knows he's damned despite harnessing the Thousandfold Thought and redefining Three Seas conception on sorcery, well, there are few options left except to overthrow and/or take over the God. Hence my theory... thus, I think the third series will be the New-God taking on the reborn No-God.

Of course, RSB might have something entirely else planned.

[Amun]

I think Kellhus has gone mad, at least in Achamian's sense of the word. Achamian describes how a little bit of the Outside leaks in when a person goes mad(I don't remember if this is the reason a person goes mad or if a mad person is susceptible to the Outside leaking in). I think this was in The Warrior Prophet, but I can't remember at the moment. Anyway, the Outside has leaked into Kellhus to some extent, and this is why he heard the No-God's voice on the circumfix and claims to hear the God's voice.

Has he gone mad in Moenghus's sense of the word? I would say that when Moenghus suggests that Kellhus is mad, he is using the term in the modern sense. Moenghus thinks Kellhus is delusional because he does not believe in the Outside or the gods, seemingly, so does not have the same definition as Achamian for madness.

I think this explains the "what has come before" section in TJE where it says Kellhus goes mad. What it is saying is that the Outside has leaked into him, in the form of the God or whatever, and not that he has gone insane in the modern sense of the term.

[Vethnar]

For them to use him to counter Moenghus indicates that he was superflous to further progress, highly unlikely unless they have more Anasurimbor genetic stock or there is dome other flaw in Kellhus that makes his issue unlikely to be of use.

All the dunyain at the time of PON are of Anasurimbor genetic stock. In a small, isolated community like Ishual, there is no way a kid like the Anasurimbor in the first prologue of TDTCB can have only a few living descendants two thousand years later. He either has no living descendants, or he has all living dunyain as his descendants. There is no middle ground. Because Moenghus and Kellhus appear to be his descendants, it follows that all other living dunyain at the time must be, too. Kellhus is probably special somehow, but not on account of being an Anasurimbor.

By the way, I've always wondered why the dunyain use surnames at all. They don't seem like the kind of people who would care much about lineages and family relationships.

[lokisnow]

I'm not sure about all the training but isn't most of it an effort to master themselves? They train themselves to ignore the feelings they possess which might otherwise control them. That whole "Logos is without beginning or end" episode is to make sure the trainee can master his thoughts, to a degree. The breeding program is so that they can change the makeup of the soul which the Dunyain believe to be flawed. I suppose the overall design is that training oneself can reshape part of the soul which can then be transferred to children. Maybe the Dunyain have a way to measure the changes of the soul and match them to others who can complement those changes. Perhaps Kellhus saw a flaw in this plan which is one reason he seems to have given up on it. Then again we don't really know why he's allowing Akka to find the Dunyain, assuming he is anyway, since he seems to be at odds with their goal in some ways.

He does explain the outside as connecting all souls, so if the Dunyain are changing souls as you suggest it's quite obvious that Kellhus learned that the Dunyain are not isolated as they believe themselves to be, that their whole program is an impossibility because they are hopelessly and completely connected to the souls of all the worldborn.

But why would they be trying to change souls? I don't think they even believe in them in the sense that most earthlings or worldborn Earwans believe in souls.

[SkiesOfAzel]

I think Kellhus has gone mad, at least in Achamian's sense of the word. Achamian describes how a little bit of the Outside leaks in when a person goes mad(I don't remember if this is the reason a person goes mad or if a mad person is susceptible to the Outside leaking in). I think this was in The Warrior Prophet, but I can't remember at the moment. Anyway, the Outside has leaked into Kellhus to some extent, and this is why he heard the No-God's voice on the circumfix and claims to hear the God's voice.

Has he gone mad in Moenghus's sense of the word? I would say that when Moenghus suggests that Kellhus is mad, he is using the term in the modern sense. Moenghus thinks Kellhus is delusional because he does not believe in the Outside or the gods, seemingly, so does not have the same definition as Achamian for madness.

I think this explains the "what has come before" section in TJE where it says Kellhus goes mad. What it is saying is that the Outside has leaked into him, in the form of the God or whatever, and not that he has gone insane in the modern sense of the term.

I think that Kellhus truly went mad in the modern sense of the word, in the sense that he believed the delusions that he himself was spreading to the Holy War. Since the world was even at that time bending to make those delusions a fact, i can only surmise that although his view of the world is sound, his reasoning doesn't follow the strict rules of logic that it used to. That will probably lead to mistakes from his part, thus negating my assumption that he is in fact Chuck Norris.

As for Mimara's father, i thought he might be Moe but he avoided the Nansur empire when traveling to the Fanim empire (or at least that is Kell's assumption). What we do know is that he was a Kidruhil which is next to worthless unfortunately.

Btw, has anyone noticed that Kosoter was mentioned plenty of times in the PON trilogy ? I thought he was a new character till i decided to reread the trilogy, and then I noticed a certain Ainoni lord called Soter. He had the same gentle and compassionate soul even back then, just ask the Fanim :P.

[kuenjato]

I think that Kellhus truly went mad in the modern sense of the word, in the sense that he believed the delusions that he himself was spreading to the Holy War. Since the world was even at that time bending to make those delusions a fact, i can only surmise that although his view of the world is sound, his reasoning doesn't follow the strict rules of logic that it used to. That will probably lead to mistakes from his part, thus negating my assumption that he is in fact Chuck Norris.

As for Mimara's father, i thought he might be Moe but he avoided the Nansur empire when traveling to the Fanim empire (or at least that is Kell's assumption). What we do know is that he was a Kidruhil which is next to worthless unfortunately.

Btw, has anyone noticed that Kosoter was mentioned plenty of times in the PON trilogy ? I thought he was a new character till i decided to reread the trilogy, and then I noticed a certain Ainoni lord called Soter. He had the same gentle and compassionate soul even back then, just ask the Fanim :P.

I hope Mimira's father remains unknown. It would disappoint me terribly for her to have a cliched puppet-strings sort of parentage.

Now I'm really curious about Soter, though. What page numbers/chapters?

[Cantabile]

I'm curious on this too, as I don't recall any mention of him in the original trilogy. Are we sure that it's the same character?

[SkiesOfAzel]

I hope we get a flashback to Kellhus' conversation with Seswatha at some point.

I've been dying to know as well, since the moment i read this part. I am convinced it's a major plot point that will be revealed near the end of the story. But what if it went that way:

- Hello mate.

- Sup.

- Will you teach me the Gnosis?

- No way Mister! I have a responsibility you know!

- It must be very tiring to relive all those horrible battles against Srank, Dragons and the like every night...

- Tell me about it. I thought "Am i cool or what?" at the time, but now i wish i had battled some hot amazons instead. You know, i don't even remember how a pair of tities looks like anymore :(. You are a likable fellow, feeling sorry for me and everything, but as i've said to you already there is no way i will change my mind, it's just not possible so give it up already!

- Tell you what, if you teach me the Gnosis, i will use it to make you dream that you are banging the Queen.

- When do we start?

It even explains Akka's erra(o)tic dreams ;).

It's not so much what he says to her, rather the immense 10 year labor of the Great Ordeal itself. This is to a specific purpose. Either 1) to annihilate the Consult, as he says to Esme (heh, right), 2) to make the Consult's task easier (seems he could do this in more efficient ways...) or 3) "something" to his own purpose. If Kellhus isn't insane and knows he's damned despite harnessing the Thousandfold Thought and redefining Three Seas conception on sorcery, well, there are few options left except to overthrow and/or take over the God. Hence my theory... thus, I think the third series will be the New-God taking on the reborn No-God.

Of course, RSB might have something entirely else planned.

I actually do believe that he is trying to save the world. Don't get me wrong, i am talking purely about his intentions here, not his methods or even the consequences of his actions. His last PON POV (repeat this fast 5 times in a row :P) as well as his dialog with Moe (he had no reason to lie to him as he was going to kill him anyway) convinced me of that. As for damnation, it takes time to alter public perception and thus the rules of the world. Old superstition is still battling with new superstition and the White Luck is in part a manifestation of that fact. Give it another 10-20 years along with a win against the Consult that will elevate Kellhus even more to a divine status, and i believe you get some damnation free sorcerers running around Earwa.

[Rhadamanth]

He does explain the outside as connecting all souls, so if the Dunyain are changing souls as you suggest it's quite obvious that Kellhus learned that the Dunyain are not isolated as they believe themselves to be, that their whole program is an impossibility because they are hopelessly and completely connected to the souls of all the worldborn.But why would they be trying to change souls? I don't think they even believe in them in the sense that most earthlings or worldborn Earwans believe in souls.

It was mentioned in the glossary of TTT that the early Dunyain believed the soul to be a part of the world, unlike the rest which believe the Ajencian view that the soul precedes everything. They believed that since it is part of the world, it is driven by prior events as much as anything else. The soul naturally wants to become self moving but a host of things prevent this. They realized early on that the soul itself was flawed so they began a process of training and breeding for intellect and dispassion with the idea of producing souls that can move further and further from the circle of before and after. Eventually they hoped to produce a soul utterly transparent to the Logos and able to see all the darkness that comes before.

I'm guessing Bakker is thinking of the Dunyain using the soul similar to genetics. Their isolation and selective breeding serve to eliminate the things they don't want in the soul's formation. Training probably helps to weed out the failures as well as provide information on what changes each generation brings.

Would Kellhus fit the description of being utterly transparent to the Logos? I'm not sure if he can see all the darkness that comes before.