The Judging Eye VII

[SkiesOfAzel]

Lord Soter is mentioned in chapter 4, 8, 10, 11 and l6 of the Thousandfold Thought. He is also mentioned in Warrior-Prophet in one or two instances. I can't offer exact page numbers as i am not at home, i only have an ebook version of the Thousandfold Thought in my smartphone to go by right now. Yes, i read PON on the go.

[Rhadamanth]

Ch 4

"There were the refugees along the Herotic Way - the very road to Shimeh- who were ridden down for sport by Lord Soter and his Kishyati Knights"

Edit to add: Whole first paragraph of Ch 8 talks about Soter and his Kishyati arriving at Gerotha.

Only mention of Soter in Ch 10 is of him and some others laughing at the sight of Uranyanka kissing Kellhus' knee.

Lord Soter scattering the pursuers of Athjeari's troops in Ch11.

Lord Soter leading his bloodthirsty Kishyati in a desperate charge from the north.

Cinganjehoi had broken through the Ainoni farther north and now fenced with Lord Soter and his Kishyati.

Uranyanka holding the severed head of Cingy who had been trapped behind the Moserothis after being driven back by Lord Soter and his Kishyati.

I think that's it.

Edited again to add the rest.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Ch 4

"There were the refugees along the Herotic Way - the very road to Shimeh- who were ridden down for sport by Lord Soter and his Kishyati Knights"

Edit to add: Whole first paragraph of Ch 8 talks about Soter and his Kishyati arriving at Gerotha.

Yes, and he does it in his usual, charming way : :bawl::whip: :box: :spank:

[Madness]

That's really cool. I just read Soter's excerpts from TTT; he's almost second to Athjeari it seems, who I thought was an awesome character for Bakker's method of Athjeari's presentation throughout the PON. Ironsoul, though, I like that he became a major character.

I have to say, while I was reading different excerpts from TTT, I became more and more convinced of my theory for Bakker's Second Apocalypse.

To paraphrase ideas:

I believe that the spoiler for the final series title will be either the No-God, the Apocalypse or the First Apocalypse. I'm pretty sure Kellhus will betray the Ordeal and side with the Consult in order to acquire the Tekne, and, in the process of unifying his Dunyainic worldview, will become a transcendental entity, traveling through time and space to be "reborn?" as the No-God. Likewise, I believe Achamian will somehow become Seswatha during the events of the First Apocalypse.

I'm down to debate with anyone, I feel I've collected a lot of evidence for this interpretation from the books. I don't necessarily even think that the events of the First Apocalypse have to play out like they did "historically" within Earwa's framework. There's a lot of evidence from time acceleration and retardation experiments or quantum theory to suggest otherwise. I love Bakker's fantasy, allows for such imaginative interpretations.

Course, Cu'jara Cinmoi does continually surprise me.

[Cantabile]

I can imagine him becoming a god, or murdering God for that matter, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about time travel in the series.

[SkiesOfAzel]

That's really cool. I just read Soter's excerpts from TTT; he's almost second to Athjeari it seems, who I thought was an awesome character for Bakker's method of Athjeari's presentation throughout the PON. Ironsoul, though, I like that he became a major character.

I have to say, while I was reading different excerpts from TTT, I became more and more convinced of my theory for Bakker's Second Apocalypse.

To paraphrase ideas:

I believe that the spoiler for the final series title will be either the No-God, the Apocalypse or the First Apocalypse. I'm pretty sure Kellhus will betray the Ordeal and side with the Consult in order to acquire the Tekne, and, in the process of unifying his Dunyainic worldview, will become a transcendental entity, traveling through time and space to be "reborn?" as the No-God. Likewise, I believe Achamian will somehow become Seswatha during the events of the First Apocalypse.

I'm down to debate with anyone, I feel I've collected a lot of evidence for this interpretation from the books. I don't necessarily even think that the events of the First Apocalypse have to play out like they did "historically" within Earwa's framework. There's a lot of evidence from time acceleration and retardation experiments or quantum theory to suggest otherwise. I love Bakker's fantasy, allows for such imaginative interpretations.

Course, Cu'jara Cinmoi does continually surprise me.

That's a popular theory and i am not denying it could go that way. Still, i do believe that Mimara is the single most important character besides Kellhus so far, and i don't think she fits in a time loop event all that well. Besides, if there was a time loop i am sure Seswatha /Akka would've made sure that every Mandate Schoolman would search the world in order to evaporate any obnoxious blond ubermench going by the name Anasurimbor. He would also fry Kellhus on the spot instead of consenting to let Akka teach him the Gnosis.

I do believe that eventually Kell's "Shortest Path" way of doing things will backfire on him and all mankind at a crucial point of the story, causing the Second Apocalypse. There are also some hint that he may become the No-God. I also think that something doesn't fit with the Celmomian prophecy and Seswatha's dreams in general. I suspect that they don't accurately represent what truly happened back then.

I also can't wait to find out what Nin'jan'jin eerrr Cleric remembers and what are his intentions. Does he seek redemption, a way to avoid damnation, or is he simply another Consult tool?

[Old Nan]

All the dunyain at the time of PON are of Anasurimbor genetic stock. In a small, isolated community like Ishual, there is no way a kid like the Anasurimbor in the first prologue of TDTCB can have only a few living descendants two thousand years later. He either has no living descendants, or he has all living dunyain as his descendants. There is no middle ground. Because Moenghus and Kellhus appear to be his descendants, it follows that all other living dunyain at the time must be, too. Kellhus is probably special somehow, but not on account of being an Anasurimbor.

Really? I can't justify it at the moment, but I have the strong impression that the Dunyain were conducting long-term eugenics programs. What you say would likely be true regardless, though.

[Madness]

Still, i do believe that Mimara is the single most important character besides Kellhus so far, and i don't think she fits in a time loop event all that well

I'm not sure what I feel about Mimara. To me, the Judging Eye is singly important insofar as it irrevocably proves that Kellhus is not the prophet he claims and most likely remains Dunyain. The question remains for me whether or not Mimara ever looked on Kellhus with the Judging Eye, as Mimara's opinion of Kellhus is one convinced of his actual divinity, as far as Mimara tells Achamian.

Besides, if there was a time loop i am sure Seswatha /Akka would've made sure that every Mandate Schoolman would search the world in order to evaporate any obnoxious blond ubermench going by the name Anasurimbor. He would also fry Kellhus on the spot instead of consenting to let Akka teach him the Gnosis.

Depending on our interpretations and Bakker's wiles, I think this point is rendered moot by the final blurb of my last post. It could very well be that the history of Earwa is a classic time paradox. Everything happens as it did. It happens, once, simultaneously. Lol, I realize this means nothing but its what I might do. We're just reading the climactic events of a reality. As I said, Bakker has always surprised me, but this might be a story that is complete, wrapping on itself infinitely. There's no reason that Seswatha knows he is Acamian, I don't think Seswatha dreams Achamian's life. Perhaps, it is Kellhus' hypnosis of Achamian or Achamian's existential circumstances that allow for the jump of consciousness. I'm reminded of Desmond in Lost: Desmond is always the final conscious experience of his multitude of existences. He always knows where he's been, even when he experiences other versions of himself.

. There are also some hint that he [Kellhus] may become the No-God. I also think that something doesn't fit with the Celmomian prophecy and Seswatha's dreams in general. I suspect that they don't accurately represent what truly happened back then.

I guess, the statement to make is that if Kellhus remains Dunyain then the Tekne is the last fundament of Earwa's metaphysics for Kellhus to grasp. That's the only real reason to suspect that he would become the No-God. Sure, there is the labyrinth of sorcery but I think we can gather that Kellhus has sufficiently explored it. I think it's obvious that Iyokus and Kellhus have been practicing some Daimos together; though, I can't defend whether it's so simplistic that Iyokus summoned Agencies from the Outside for Kellhus to battle.

Btw, I'm of the mindset that Seswatha's dreams, aside from the recent divergence in Achamian's experiences of them, are probably more historically accurate than the sagas. Though, of course, as I said, in a version of a time paradox, things only have to happen once. Perhaps, we're just reading the finale of Earwa's journey, the final paradoxical piece of it's tale. It's like Terrance McKenna's transcendental object at the end of time; something that forever alters the time space continuum, in this case rendering it permanently existent, everything happening now.

I also can't wait to find out what Nin'jan'jin eerrr Cleric remembers and what are his intentions. Does he seek redemption, a way to avoid damnation, or is he simply another Consult tool?

I'm not sure we can assume based on Pat's word that Cleric is actually a Nonman we know. For example, it states in the Appendix of TTT that the last surviving Nonman King is Nin-Ciljiras (? - ), a random. While I understand that reading the excerpts of the Appendix can be purposely misleading on Bakker's part, and while there are many named Nonman unaccounted for after the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars and Apocalypse excerpts of the Appendix, it's still interesting for it to mention him as the last Nonman King.

Sorry, if I threw a lot at you, SOA, just been jonesing for some debate on these books. Peace.

[nerd123]

I wouldn't be too thrilled about time travel either, but I have to admit that the Dunyain being so hermetically sealed from the rest of the world is in keeping with common time travel plots (ever seen Primer?). The basic idea would be that whoever created the Dunyain wanted them to not affect anything else in Earwa in the slightest.

Also, I agree that Kellhuss becoming the No-God is plausible future development, but it's not clear what real evidence there is for that in the text. What exactly in the text makes it plausible?

[Kalbear]

It's possible that the Dunyain have specific, small sets of breeding stocks and they didn't let them all interbreed in large amounts. It's very unlikely (especially since there's no reasonable view that they'd have that advanced idea of genetics to keep strains separate and would want to try as many combinations as they had breeders) but it's possible.

Honestly it's the kind of fantastical conceit that doesn't bug me much, any more than the wall being 800 feet but people worrying about arrows at the top does.

[Madness]

So you pretty much believe Mo when he says "that you are Dunyain still."

Moenghus dies before he ever actually says it, though Kellhus says it to his father twice in their dialogue. I figure Kellhus and Moenghus both remain "Dunyain", how could such conditioning and understanding be lost by a change in circumstance, even over thirty years in Moenghus case. Moenghus, unfortunately, lost his way and mistook his understanding of Earwa as the understanding. Kellhus, I think, is a little closer in his interpretation to Earwa's objectivity. Thus, knowing more, Kellhus understands that his father will ultimately succumb to skewed rationale.

To lead this towards nerd123's question, a Dunyain, with a self-moving soul as its objective and the particular conceptual manacles it needs to escape, would likely require the most complete understanding of reality. I wish I had all my copies of the books around; the fundaments of Earwaen Metaphysics that I want to paraphrase roll something like this:

Sorcery - Gnostic, Aporic and Daimotic are essentially the three extremes there that really poke at the metaphysical walls.

Belief - Culture, History, Desire; humankind's software as a metaphor?

War

The last I would say is the Tekne, which I'll guess is likely some variation of biology or technology.

These are all things I'd hazard that a Dunyain would want to understand in his search of the most "accurate" realization of reality.

Based on what I think I know about the operational mechanics of the Outside, I'd say it's inevitable for a Dunyain of Kellhus' skill to either become a God, or as we're trying to guess a story, more likely the No-God. Fits in with the Dunyainic philosophic ambiguities.

[Happy Ent]

Two comments for the record (not much time):

1. Let’s just agree that there is an Ainoni Lord Soter in the first three books. (Yes, I’ve noticed him a long time ago.) He has almost the same name as Lord Kosoter in book 4. Both are Ainoni, so it is no surprise that they have similar names. Beyond that, we know nothing.

In particular, we cannot infer that they are the same. After all, we don’t believe that Richard Karstark beheaded himself at RIverrun either. So there is only very weak evidence in favour.

There is, however, somewhat stronger evidence against. In particular, we’d need to believe that Drusas Achamian has never met (or even heard of) Lord Soter. This is even more unlikely given the fact that Achamian has written a mighty history of the war.

So Soter and Kosoter are likely two different Ainoni. There could be a surprise, and I certainly find the idea both tempting and entertaining, but the evidence either way is very small.

2. The Judging Eye absolutely does not prove anything about Kellhus being a prophet or not. It merely shows that some sorcerers are damned.

[Madness]

Good point about Kosoter, Ent. I wish I had had my books with my last night.

On your second point though.

2. The Judging Eye absolutely does not prove anything about Kellhus being a prophet or not. It merely shows that some sorcerers are damned.

I think it's tantamount to say that if sorcerers are damned then Kellhus is not the prophet he claims to be. Which would be the undoing of a large part of his Ordeal, if the Mandate no longer honoured their belief in Kellhus.

While we can debate that Earwaen metaphysics bend towards what the most souled individuals believe, becomes true - like the real world btw, what the most minds believe, becomes true on a psychosocial/cultural level - We don't know that sorcerers were ever really saved, that Kellhus ever really affected Earwaen metaphysics between his Circumfixion and the Great Ordeal's march.

[Galactus]

Good point about Kosoter, Ent. I wish I had had my books with my last night.

On your second point though.

I think it's tantamount to say that if sorcerers are damned then Kellhus is not the prophet he claims to be. Which would be the undoing of a large part of his Ordeal, if the Mandate no longer honoured their belief in Kellhus.

While we can debate that Earwaen metaphysics bend towards what the most souled individuals believe, becomes true - like the real world btw, what the most minds believe, becomes true on a psychosocial/cultural level - We don't know that sorcerers were ever really saved, that Kellhus ever really affected Earwaen metaphysics between his Circumfixion and the Great Ordeal's march.

It's quite possible that Kellhus has indeed removed damnation from sorcerers... But that all the onesMimara has seen hve gone an damned themselves through regular means.

[Amun]

Also, I agree that Kellhuss becoming the No-God is plausible future development, but it's not clear what real evidence there is for that in the text. What exactly in the text makes it plausible?

I don't know if anyone knows why it would be possible because no one is certain about what the No-God actually is, outside of theories. Having said that, there are interesting examples in the text that might be interpreted as foreshadowing.

-On at least one occasion, Cnaiur thinks of Kellhus as a whirlwind that upsets the Scylvendi community and his life, but I think he thinks this about Moenghus at one point as well.

-I think some people see Kellhus's fight with the Cishaurim in Shimeh as some sort of reference to the No-God. He wraps himself in spinning cloud of debris to knock away chorae arrows.

-He had a vision of the No-God on the Circumfix.

-After the battle at Mengedda in The Warrior Prophet, Achamian has his dreams and wakes up. Esmenet talks to him about Kellhus and it seems she is starting to think of him as a prophet. Achamian has trouble hearing what she says because interspersed amid her dialogue about Kellhus, Achamian fairly hears the No-God calling out in his head. He attributes this to memories of the dream from the night before.

-Then there is Achamian's dream at the end of TTT where the king of Kyraneas starts aping the No-God. This can be interpreted as a parallel between Kellhus and Achamian, except instead of striking down the No-God, he becomes(joins?) the No-God(maybe?).

[Happy Ent]

It's quite possible that Kellhus has indeed removed damnation from sorcerers...

But he claims not even that. All he says, in the Novum Arcanum, is that “Damnation follows not from the bare utterance of sorcery.” Sorcery is wicked, an abomination, and obscene, but His name can salvage it.

This is far from un-damning all sorcerers.

[lokisnow]

I have to say, while I was reading different excerpts from TTT, I became more and more convinced of my theory for Bakker's Second Apocalypse.

that you convinced yourself makes me certain (heh) that you're wrong.

I always beware the wiles of confirmation and selection bias in a Bakker thread. :-p Just look at the conflation of Kosotor and Sotor. Confirmation bias.

[Nerdanel]

I remember that TJE mentions that Kellhus had given Kosoter a new name, Ironsouled or something to that effect. But it's important to remember they aren't speaking English. I think Kosoter is the untranslated version of that new name. It's noteworthy that certain Biblical events where someone is given a new name (Abram/Abraham, Saul/Paul) have the new name be close in sound to the old one and Bakker is trying to evoke the Biblical worldview.

So I'm of the opinion that Soter = Kosoter.

I think the connection between the No-God and Kellhus is that Kellhus is knowingly serving the No-God, who is an active behind-the-scenes influence despite his current inability to take material form due to being dead. I've written about my theories earlier at length.

But what I find way too implausible to believe is that there is actual time travel going on. I just can't see it. I think the Dûnyain are right about causality flowing one way, and as far as the things that make it seem like the future is affecting the past, that isn't the real past being seen, only visions in the present, and those things do not necessarily reflect the past the way it really was. I think a theme in the books is that changing the perception of reality through lying, propaganda, etc. doesn't actually change the underlying reality, which means that believing the fake reality can be dangerous indeed, as it makes one blind and thus likely to be blindsided by events.

[SkiesOfAzel]

1. Let’s just agree that there is an Ainoni Lord Soter in the first three books. (Yes, I’ve noticed him a long time ago.) He has almost the same name as Lord Kosoter in book 4. Both are Ainoni, so it is no surprise that they have similar names. Beyond that, we know nothing.

In particular, we cannot infer that they are the same. After all, we don’t believe that Richard Karstark beheaded himself at RIverrun either. So there is only very weak evidence in favour.

There is, however, somewhat stronger evidence against. In particular, we’d need to believe that Drusas Achamian has never met (or even heard of) Lord Soter. This is even more unlikely given the fact that Achamian has written a mighty history of the war.

So Soter and Kosoter are likely two different Ainoni. There could be a surprise, and I certainly find the idea both tempting and entertaining, but the evidence either way is very small.

You make some valid point here Ent, and i agree that there is not enough evidence to force a conclusion either way. As for Akka recognizing him, i am not so sure this is a given since he traveled with a completely different segment of the Holy War, and he would have also avoided the Ainoni due to the presence of the Scarlet Spires. There is also the 20 years gap that can make anyone forget faces or even names. What made me consider this possibility strongly, was the way this Lord Soter was portrayed : He was cruel, brutal and he also seemed completely fearless.

Whatever he is Kosoter or not though won't affect the story, it will mostly affect the image of Bakker i have in my head. If Soter and Kosoter are the same person, it just goes to show how much detailed planning has gone to these books. Scott must be a Dunyain :).

-On at least one occasion, Cnaiur thinks of Kellhus as a whirlwind that upsets the Scylvendi community and his life, but I think he thinks this about Moenghus at one point as well.

-I think some people see Kellhus's fight with the Cishaurim in Shimeh as some sort of reference to the No-God. He wraps himself in spinning cloud of debris to knock away chorae arrows.

-He had a vision of the No-God on the Circumfix.

-After the battle at Mengedda in The Warrior Prophet, Achamian has his dreams and wakes up. Esmenet talks to him about Kellhus and it seems she is starting to think of him as a prophet. Achamian has trouble hearing what she says because interspersed amid her dialogue about Kellhus, Achamian fairly hears the No-God calling out in his head. He attributes this to memories of the dream from the night before.

-Then there is Achamian's dream at the end of TTT where the king of Kyraneas starts aping the No-God. This can be interpreted as a parallel between Kellhus and Achamian, except instead of striking down the No-God, he becomes(joins?) the No-God(maybe?).

Thank you for your post, you saved me the trouble of typing all this myself :P. The vision on the Circumfix and the dream at the end of TTT were especially interesting. There is also a little detail that may be insignificant, but i noticed that throughout the PON books the phrase "What do you see?" kept coming up, most of the times by Kellhus. It also seems to be the No-God's favorite phrase. It might be coincidence or misdirection, but every time it happened it gave me an eerie feeling nonetheless.

I'm not sure we can assume based on Pat's word that Cleric is actually a Nonman we know. For example, it states in the Appendix of TTT that the last surviving Nonman King is Nin-Ciljiras (? - ), a random. While I understand that reading the excerpts of the Appendix can be purposely misleading on Bakker's part, and while there are many named Nonman unaccounted for after the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars and Apocalypse excerpts of the Appendix, it's still interesting for it to mention him as the last Nonman King.

Sorry, if I threw a lot at you, SOA, just been jonesing for some debate on these books. Peace.

Well, i won't argue for or against your time paradox theory, at this point we can only guess as to which direction the story will take.

About Cleric, i have to confess that i don't know who Pat is, i came to the conclusion that he may well be Nin'jan'jin after reading the speech he gave in front of the statue of Scott's alter ego ;). There were also his comments about damnation on the last part of the book as well as the fact that he must be someone truly important and ancient according to Akka. Not conclusive, i know, but with Bakker even when something is explicitly stated, it's still not certain to be the truth ;). He is a sadistic writer for sure.

I think a theme in the books is that changing the perception of reality through lying, propaganda, etc. doesn't actually change the underlying reality, which means that believing the fake reality can be dangerous indeed, as it makes one blind and thus likely to be blindsided by events.

I am of the same opinion about the main theme of the book, but i think that Scott chose to make perception a force that can actually alter the fabric of reality itself, for added emphasis.

[Curethan]

Time traveling kellhus/no-god does not compute for me. The logos wouldn't work if that were possible, Kellhus ruminates on this when considering the outside - its existence and the existence of sorcery don't violate the principles of the dunyain, but the Celmoman prophecy - its the one thing that violates the law of cause and effect.

After Kellhus talks to Seswatha, he doesn't worry about it anymore (my suspiscion is that its not a proper prophecy but rather an element of long term conditioning i.e. self fulfilling).

Also:

1. Time loops may appear to not contradict causality but its still a paradox. Judging from chorae the way that metaphysical contradictions manifest in Earwa in a form that is metaphorical, highly contained and inimical.

2. Kellhus would go properly nuts trying to pull something like that off. If he could work out how to do it , then he could surely work out that its hardly going to advance his goals to get stuck in a loop where he just keeps repeating the mistakes of the past...

3. Thematically, it really doesn't fit. The struggle between the unholy trinity of sentience - cold, rational logic (dunyain) vs emotional justification and self deception (Earwan society) vs genetic predisposition and conditioning (consult). I think it likely for the conclusion to involve some type of resolution that involves rational thought triumphant. (although illustrating the nessecity of intergrating and mastering aspects of the other two as important to the definition of humanity itself)

4. Time travel paradox resolutions are really the domain of short stories.

IMO, if one considers that Kellhus also has the judging eye, (perhaps it was awakened on the circumfix) it gives illumination to the shape of his subsequent 'madness'. An undeniable insight beyond his extant fractal vision (ability to see the core truths of people) that co-incides with the re-awakening of his submerged emotional self.

I believe Kellhus will face real temptations in the face of the Tekne but I don't think it will serve the thematic shape for him to succumb unless a new character emerges to champion the aspect of logic and rational behaviour.

-On at least one occasion, Cnaiur thinks of Kellhus as a whirlwind that upsets the Scylvendi community and his life, but I think he thinks this about Moenghus at one point as well.

whirlwind is an apt metaphor here, for the no-god it's a descriptive analogy

-I think some people see Kellhus's fight with the Cishaurim in Shimeh as some sort of reference to the No-God. He wraps himself in spinning cloud of debris to knock away chorae arrows.

good tactics are good tactics...

-He had a vision of the No-God on the Circumfix.

not explicit - its the only time the no-god is described with a human form if so

-After the battle at Mengedda in The Warrior Prophet, Achamian has his dreams and wakes up. Esmenet talks to him about Kellhus and it seems she is starting to think of him as a prophet. Achamian has trouble hearing what she says because interspersed amid her dialogue about Kellhus, Achamian fairly hears the No-God calling out in his head. He attributes this to memories of the dream from the night before.

he's in Mengedda - no further explanation required imo

-Then there is Achamian's dream at the end of TTT where the king of Kyraneas starts aping the No-God. This can be interpreted as a parallel between Kellhus and Achamian, except instead of striking down the No-God, he becomes(joins?) the No-God(maybe?).

evidence that Seswatha's dreams are not reliable in source or content, but no idication this has anything to do with Kellhus

Still, I would be interested to see what support Madness has collated from the books - it's been a while since I read them last.