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Ran

New POV 2 - Spoilers for ADwD

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I don't want Dany to like Victarion. He's a huge asshole for beating his wife to death, and it's a terrible excuse that "Euron made me do it". Victarion is a member of the ruling family of the Iron Islands and their greatest warrior as well, so it wouldn't affect his social standing much if he became known as "that guy who got cheated on by his wife". He could have sent her away and left it at that.

While I agree that Victarion is a well conceinved character, and quite fresh straightforward and unscheming ways (which are depriving him of supporters btw) I simply don't like his entire point of view as ironborn. I simply hate the entire iroborn culture of thievery and i have a hard time liking anyone from the Iron Islands, except the Reader.

My loss, perhaps.

This. I still don't get why Victarion didn't go kick Euron's ass and shaming his wife without having to resort to killing. I also think my dislike might also be a bit of a reaction to the sexist views of the ironborn. While "non-traditional" women like Asha may be tolerated, being a ship captain and fun at parties, they're still not fit to rule? Bah!

On-topic: I very much look forward to Quentyn's POV, he seems to be very different from Arianne and I'm curious to see his encounter with Dany (assuming he gets there). Also, I'm really curious about his journey, especially if he travels through the valyrian roads.

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Women don't have full emancipation in anywhere but Dorne, though indeed the level of misogyny in the ironborn culture seems ultra high compared to the rest of Westeros. I wouldn't take Asha as any recommendation of the overall culture, she had the providence of having two older brothers who died and a younger one who was reared on the greenlands, thus making him unfit in the eyes of their father, who thus had no choice but to rely on her. Of course Asha herself learned how to cope, she exhibits the very mannerisms required to command respect, nevertheless she strikes me as extremely atypical not only of Westeros but of the ironborn.

I need to reread AFFC quite badly, but it felt like a very macho culture and Victarion being shamed by his wife would lower his prestige by casting him in an unmanly light. I had the sense it operated on dominance hierarchies. The way Martin had Victarion reflect on his motivations for killing his wife shows the cultural indoctrination, if you will. Not that it's an excuse, I don't think we're meant to see either Vic or Euron as good guys, but a reason, so that we can buy them as believable human beings.

Pardon my off-topic. To reel it in, I suspect that Quentyn and Dany's planned alliance won't go through, and the ironborn will be a part of the reason why.

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I need to reread AFFC quite badly, but it felt like a very macho culture and Victarion being shamed by his wife would lower his prestige by casting him in an unmanly light. I had the sense it operated on dominance hierarchies. The way Martin had Victarion reflect on his motivations for killing his wife shows the cultural indoctrination, if you will. Not that it's an excuse, I don't think we're meant to see either Vic or Euron as good guys, but a reason, so that we can buy them as believable human beings.

Pardon my off-topic. To reel it in, I suspect that Quentyn and Dany's planned alliance won't go through, and the ironborn will be a part of the reason why.

That's exactly how I read Victarion, especially because I thought that he realized that his wife was raped and killed her anyways. He could either kill his wife or his brother, and his king/lord would not allow him to kill his brother. The process of elimination leads him to kill his wife. He follows his cultural sense of honor to the letter.

I think the the Ironborn end up killing Barristan Selmy, thus depriving Dany of the adviser who would tell her about the close relationship between Dorn and the Targs.

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I don't think Dany needs anyone to tell her about the close relationship between Dorne and the Targs. She's not *that* ignorant of her house's history. Viserys always counted on Dornish support for his conquest, and probably told her how Dorne was brought into the fold of the 7 Kingdoms.

And I still fail to see what advantage an ironborn alliance could give her over a marriage with the Martells.

Anyway I think tha Euron himslef will show up to ruin Vic's plans and wreak havoc. Hopefully Drogon will eat them both!

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I agree that Selmy has to be dead before the suitors arrive in Meereen, who ever Dany decides has to be entirely her decision. Jorah has already been removed and now the only other character who has an experience of life in Westeros (and can thus influence her decision) is Barristan. Dany has to make the decision on who to ally with on her own.

I like the idea of Quentyn been the smiling corpse because of disease. I could really get behind that.

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what's this idiocy of Selmy needing to die before the suitors arrive? Dany is quite capable of making decisions on her own. Selmy being with her could actually be more interesting if she makes decisions that go against Ser Barristan's opinions, like trusting Tyrion or even the ironborns. There is no tension at all if she makes a controversial decision without anyone she respects disagreeing.

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Take the Demon Road, Quentyn. It sounds cool. Don't be such a pussy.

Yes! Yes! DO take the Demon Road. Why the hell not? The demons are lonely and wondering why everyone is avoiding them. They're awaiting company with pitchers of lemonsweet and platters of the finest cheese and fruit at hand. Or maybe not. If I were faced with the Demon road, my sense of curiosity would be at total war with my sense of self-preservation. I hope Quentyn is brave and determined enough to take the road less traveled.

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I was always under the impression that Dany's vision of the smiling corpse on a ship was Maester Aemon in AFFC.

Nice interpretation of the vision, never heard it before. Don't know if it fits the details of the vision but Aemon could well be a metaforical "mount to dread" since he had knowledge of the Others and the profecy of the Prince that was Promised.

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My impression was Euron Greyjoy. He is not dead, but he has the blue lips, and he has strange eyes. Dany might just have mistakenly interpreted him as a corpse.

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Q reminds me of how most of the young men are in Westeros, somewhat nieve until they get the innocence beat out of them - a la Jaime, Tyrion, most of Renly's followers, etc. I bet that either Q dies fairly quickly or develops into something more interesting - hopefully more like Ned (a good guy who sometimes does dishonorable things) than Jaime.

Overall, I have hopes for the character. I am reminded of Jaime's musings of when he ignored the Tully girls for stories of valor from the Blackfish. It's hard seeing how a kid like that could become the Kinslayer. Hopefully, we'll get to see a story like that with a happier ending.

But I don't have hopes for any guy set to woo "the most beautiful woman in the world." Usually when a woman is put on that high of a pedestal, the story ends up with the girl running off the bad boy. With Dany we are dealing with a girl whose main male role model was an abusive brother, who ended up and loved a savage, rejected nice guy (although weasal) Jorah, and is in heat for Daario who probably is a cousin of Darkstar. This does not look like a good match.

My expectation is that Dany develops into an Elizabeth I type of monarch who plays various male suitors off each other in order to retain the crown. Occasionally, she may grant favor to some loyal knave but her focus is on maintaining power, not marrying.

Also, Q is no Jon. Jon is a tough bastard and natural born leader who represents the best example of the North. If Q could grow into someone like Jon then maybe he has a shot, but this guy sounds like he has some serious toughening up.

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Liliedhe, Euron seems to be the most likely answer. He would also fit the bill for the "dread" part.

I like this interpretation, although I wonder why Euron sent Vict to Dany if he was planning on going himself.

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Hopefully Drogon will eat them both!

Hopefully not! Euron is way too much fun as a villain to disappear from the story so soon.

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I like this interpretation, although I wonder why Euron sent Vict to Dany if he was planning on going himself.

So Victarion can do the hard work of fighting and Euron can do the easy work of treachery.

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So Victarion can do the hard work of fighting and Euron can do the easy work of treachery.

Treachery is hard work. It's just that Euron is so good at it he makes it look easy.

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I can't believe it's taken me this long to find this chapter! Not that I have a lot to say about it... I'd say my strongest reaction at the moment is amusement because Quentyn seems so sure that Dany desperately needs an 18-year-old boy to protect her. Quentyn seems to take himself a bit too seriously to be really likable, a bit like Stannis really. Also, after all the hype about Dany's awesome beauty I really hope that she turns out to be moderately pretty at best, when finally seen through the eyes of a Westerosi who is not totally in love with her.

That has absolutely nothing to do with deciding whether or not to like the character. Victarion may be an asshole, but he's a well-conceived character, honorable in the ironmen fashion, and enjoyable to read. I'm going to assume that you're one of those people who require sympathetic characters in order to enjoy a story.

Whereas I'm going to assume that you're one of those people who can't see the difference between liking a character's personality & actions and enjoying the way a character is written, his storyline etc. A case in point: I despise Jaime but his POV is one of my favourites, because his chapters include so much interesting stuff and info and because I think his inner conflict is well written. And I agree with many others here concerning Victarion: whatever one thinks about his POV-chapters, it's really difficult to find anything positive to say about his personality and/or actions.

As for Quentyn, he may be similar to Ned, but I think that Jon always was a bit different form Eddard and he is becoming more flexible and ruthless. He'll end up being quite different from Eddard Stark in many ways.

Agreed. Ned did plant some of his ideas about honour in Jon, but other than that I think they're quite different. Jon has never been shy, for one, nor particularly quiet (and definitely not dreamy and awkward like Quentyn). And I have hard time picturing Ned as sulky and hot-headed teenager. :)

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