Technological Advancement in Fantasy

[Werthead]

I'm pretty sure that Burn was an active goddess up to 1,160 years before the books begin (the action in the books spans about 1163-1167 or so Burn's Sleep, IIRC, not taking into account the insanity of TTH which pushes it well into the 1170s) and then went to sleep at that point.

The Malazan world is both a fantasy and an SF one, with the KCCM and their technological artefacts. IIRC there is also mention of Kallor's empire using 'machines' to do certain jobs. On that basis the planet seems have geology and seismic areas and temperature zones and so on (with a lot of equatorial icefields as a result of Jaghut magic). The bones of previous empires and the dust of ancient civilisations and dead gods I think were in warrens (most notably the Imperial Warren), not inside the actual physical reality of the planet, as far as I remember anyway.

[TrueMetis]

I'd like to make two factual points here:

- first, it's just not true that central american civilisations never invented the wheel. We've seen them in their art, and we've even found examples of them. The issue is that none of them seemed to have the idea of using wheels in a mode of transport - they created wheeled vehicles, but only for small children's toys, not for real-size things. This is a bit weird - my guess would be that without horses, llamas, camels or bovines to PULL the carts or chariots, the marginal benefit from wheels wasn't worth the effort of sustaining a wheelwright industry. [Reliable cart-sized wheels are surprisingly difficult to make, and took millenia of development in the old world - as central america didn't have the animals to pull heavy loads anyway, it just wasn't worth investing in that sort of tech]. So I don't think we've got a strange lack-of-invention here: they invented the concept, but lacked the resources that would make full-scale implementation of that concept viable. They took to the wheel rapidly enough when horses were introduced. [bigger question: why so few boats? Suggests to me that, as some people think, early boats, at least in inland areas, developed as animal-drawn barges, like canal boats, with oars and sails later inventions - if that's the case, central america would never have started down that tech tree, even though the later stages would have been useful to them]

I thought there were Llama's in Central America. The problem with using them to pull a cart is they weigh between 130 and 200 kilograms and can only carry 25-30% of their body weight vs a horse which weighs 500 to 600 kilograms.

Now for a fun fact both horses and camilids (Camels, dromedaries, Bactrian Camels, llamas, alpacas, vicuñas, and guanacos) evolved in North America. Imagine how different Europe and Asia would be without them and if they hadn't died out in North America.

[Relic]

Yeah, who needs characterization or logic or any of that. This is fantasy!

I didn't say that. Human evolution could have gone much differently if we lived on a different planet. Or if our genetics were altered enough to be able to make use of some "magical" dimension. So i don't see why you would base it on what you know about human evolution in our reality. Especially when you KNOW you are reading a novel not based in our reality.

[TrueMetis]

I didn't say that. Human evolution could have gone much differently if we lived on a different planet. Or if our genetics were altered enough to be able to make use of some "magical" dimension. So i don't see why you would base it on what you know about human evolution in our reality. Especially when you KNOW you are reading a novel not based in our reality.

Nit pick there would have been no human evolution if we lived on a different planet as we would be something else.

[jurble]

- It's a bit strange to blame "confucianism" for China's sudden stagnation. Confucianism had been around as a state orthodoxy for... what, a thousand years at least before the time we're discussing? Maybe two thousand? I'd suggest instead that the burdens of such a large empire were too great for their technology to sustain. They were held up by their massive urbanism, but the Mongol invasions and the following chaos decimated their cities, and they never managed to recover culturally - from that point on, it was all they could do to keep the empire together. If the mongols had been less united, like the goths, China would probably have fallen like Rome did, but their conquerors managed to keep it together.

Confucianism =/= Neo-Confucianism, Neo-Confucianist doctrine under the Qing was completely anti-progress.

[Shryke]

I didn't say that. Human evolution could have gone much differently if we lived on a different planet. Or if our genetics were altered enough to be able to make use of some "magical" dimension. So i don't see why you would base it on what you know about human evolution in our reality. Especially when you KNOW you are reading a novel not based in our reality.

Because the things we are talking about here come from pretty basic principles. People build shit to make it easier to do stuff. That's it really.

The problem comes when your book says they at some point just decided they had enough things to make their lives easier and just stopped. Doesn't make sense.

Also if human evolution was so different their, they wouldn't look so damn much like us (both physically and culturally and so on)

[AquariumDrinker]

The Recluse novel do a decent job of showing varying technological levels throughout the generations, and with combining magic with the advancements. Also, the first one that I read had a good example of a mage making a living doing mundane tasks, such a testing and healing sheep and other tasks to help farmers.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

- It's a bit strange to blame "confucianism" for China's sudden stagnation. Confucianism had been around as a state orthodoxy for... what, a thousand years at least before the time we're discussing? Maybe two thousand? I'd suggest instead that the burdens of such a large empire were too great for their technology to sustain. They were held up by their massive urbanism, but the Mongol invasions and the following chaos decimated their cities, and they never managed to recover culturally - from that point on, it was all they could do to keep the empire together. If the mongols had been less united, like the goths, China would probably have fallen like Rome did, but their conquerors managed to keep it together.

Jurble beat me to it. Confucianism stifled development in China because the state exams were Confucianist and focused on a very limited array of knowledge, almost none of which was practical. So, all of the authorities had their power because of a traditional system, and they were unwilling to surrender that.

Re: Kallor

He himself, in MoI, talks about the advantages of science over magic - it's in the scene where he is smoking the century candle. Although his experience would certainly give him more insight than the average person, he can hardly be the only person in the world who has come to this conclusion.

[polishgenius]

Some religion started teaching the planet was the body of a sleeping Goddess, enough people believed -> poof the planet is now a sleeping goddess

Nah, she went to sleep because the Crippled God was making her ill.

I'm pretty sure that Burn was an active goddess up to 1,160 years before the books begin (the action in the books spans about 1163-1167 or so Burn's Sleep, IIRC, not taking into account the insanity of TTH which pushes it well into the 1170s) and then went to sleep at that point.

Yeah, you're right.

The bones of previous empires and the dust of ancient civilisations and dead gods I think were in warrens (most notably the Imperial Warren), not inside the actual physical reality of the planet, as far as I remember anyway.

The Imperial Warren contains the ruins of Kallor's empire because that's were K'Rul put it to allow the land to heal. There's plenty of other old ruins lying around the place in the real world, particularly in and around Seven Cities (Karsa visits one in TBH for example, and Iccy, Mappo and Fiddler's gang find an Iccy-created one in DHG).

As for Kallor's tech, it's strongly hinted that he used KCCM remnants, though it's a bit confused by the fact that the Imperial Warren, as well as being the remains of his empire, was originally the KCCM's warren before they disappeared.

[Relic]

Also if human evolution was so different their, they wouldn't look so damn much like us (both physically and culturally and so on)

I don't know. I think it's entirely possible, actually. :read:

[Old Nan]

Any evolutionary descent is possible. And since we're talking about a genre defined by magic, where things that are considered impossible in our own world are by authorial fiat declared to be otherwise in the text, I don't think it's wise to argue that a particular descent which is merely vanishingly improbable in our world could not have happened in the fictional one.

[lokisnow]

also weren't many of the roads of the Incan Empire Stair based or suspension bridge based? Wheeled vehicles not as reliable with the need to climb stairs. Also made them damned hard to conquer, but no worries, disease took the hard work of two continents worth of genocide off the backs of the Europeans having to do it with guns.

As for the technology, they may not have developed the wheel for combat and commerce, but they fucking owned when it came to genetic engineering. So many of the staples of the world's diet that are not wheat and rice were invented by the native cultures of South and North America.

eta. I didn't want to say too much because it's been five years since I read this book, but luckily wikipedia to the rescue with useful quotes:

1491

He disagrees with the popular idea that European technologies were superior to those of Indians. Guns were a prime example, as they were seen by Indians as nothing more than "noisemakers," and they were difficult to aim. Famous colonist John Smith noted that "the awful truth...it could not shoot as far as an arrow could fly." Indian technology was more impressive, such as moccasins, which were more comfortable and sturdy than the boots Europeans wore, and were preferred by most of them during that era because their padding offered a more silent approach to warfare. Canoes are a prime example that disproves the myth of superior technology of the Europeans. The canoes made by Indians were faster and more maneuverable than any small European boats.

Heather Lechtmen explains that Europeans took metals and optimized their value by using them for their "hardness, strength, toughness, and sharpness,” while Indian cultures such as the Inca used metals for “plasticity, malleability, and toughness." Simply put, Europeans used metals to produce materially resilient arms and assorted weapons ("swords and armor, rifles and cannons"), whereas metal for the natives was more common within decoration and the creation of arts and craft. Although both cultures had access to and made use of metal, it was for differing purposes: "Europeans used metal for tools [while] Andean societies primarily used it as a token of wealth, power, and community affiliation."

Use of the horse was thought to have been an advantage for the Europeans, but in cases such as the Inca, their stepped roads were impassable to horses.

[Gigei]

Uh, to reply to some earlier posts. From what I can tell, magic is pervasive and available to all in Malazan. It's not like in WoT where only channelers can do "magic." Yes, some people have talent but study and training can get you there as well. Since gods are real, the Malazan races can also do priest-type magic summoning and prayer.

You can tell because every little squad of soldiers has its magic-user and every little tribe, too. Of course, most of them suck. ;) This is only to be expected since in any type of job, only a few reach the very highest levels of artistry/genius.

We do actually get to see one inventor in the books, uh that girl Karsa met. In fact, I believe she was testing out an experimental vehicle when they first met. So yeah, there are inventors. Just not a lot of them. People think she is crazy for doing weird things, IIRC.

Great post, lockesnow. Yes, I have previously read about the bow and arrows actually being superior to early guns in many ways.

Something about rate of fire, distance and ease of production, I think.

However, archery requires much more time to be proficient than guns. You can give a boy a gun and train him pretty fast compared to training a man in archery. So each has its strengths.

I believe Werthead's post was responding to my previous one where I was speculating about the physical makeup of the Malazan planet. Like, can you dig really deep down or do you hit Burn's warren if you try it?

[elmis]

Somewhere in this thread a poster wrote that the author wants their story set in a dark medieval setting, and still have a rich and epic history to the place. That guy was right.

I haven't read Malazan books, but it seems to me that having 100 000 years of history where they're still stuck in the middle ages is a bit odd. But, if the books are good, I'll read it.

Would be cool if some of these Epic fantasy authors went out on a limb and made some feudal society world with modern guns and magic; Firefly meets Gandalf.

[blackzoid]

Its not really 100000 years at the medievil level. Its 100000 years between two medievil periods.

The first having being ended by the destruction of the cvilisation involved (and the death/shapechanging of most of its people) and the second having only arisen relatively recently in the past.

We have no real indication on the time periods between them. We have no idea whether the Quan Tali continent which forms the core of the Malazan empire was always populated by humans (100000 years). We don't know for sure about other human civilisations. We do know that Kallor was at the head of several empires. Presumably that was during the "in-between" time period. But he destroyed them all.

In a world filled with apocalyptic convergences, I don't think its inconceivable that knowledge could be lost to a greater extant than what happened in our world. We don't see many inventers in the world. The Malazan empire got as far as it did with the help of explosives. But they are unfortunatedly the only exceptions.

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

In a world filled with apocalyptic convergences, I don't think its inconceivable that knowledge could be lost to a greater extant than what happened in our world. We don't see many inventers in the world. The Malazan empire got as far as it did with the help of explosives. But they are unfortunatedly the only exceptions.

The problem is that this makes sense if you don't see technological progress in the series. But you do. So you are told that you have rate X for 100,000 years, and then in 20 years you have rate Y.

It just feels weird.

I'm okay with technological stagnation - as long as there's at least something presented to answer why. Sociologically, physiologically, whatever - something should be there. Having the rate of progress stunted and then magically improve just seems wrong.

[Werthead]

Would be cool if some of these Epic fantasy authors went out on a limb and made some feudal society world with modern guns and magic; Firefly meets Gandalf.

This sounds like Chris Wooding's Tales of the Ketty Jay series, starting with Retribution Falls and The Black-Lung Captain. It's an excellent series.

If you mean guns and magic (not 'modern' guns), Paul Kearney's Monarchies of God series may be up your street, set in Renaissance times with guns and cannon instead of a Medieval period.

[Nerdanel]

The problem is that this makes sense if you don't see technological progress in the series. But you do. So you are told that you have rate X for 100,000 years, and then in 20 years you have rate Y.

It just feels weird.

I'm okay with technological stagnation - as long as there's at least something presented to answer why. Sociologically, physiologically, whatever - something should be there. Having the rate of progress stunted and then magically improve just seems wrong.

We don't have much to interpolate the actual momentary rates in the time gap. I think the evidence suggests that there was plenty of yo-yo movement going on, with civilizations inventing stuff and then getting destroyed and their innovations forgotten.

It's telling that by the end of TtH both Karsa and Kallor have decided to destroy the entire human civilization. Then we have Icarium and his continent-eradicating rages. I could go on. The Malazan world with its extremely powerful individuals just happens to be particularly vulnerable to that kind of thing. Without the Azath the whole planet could well have been made uninhabitable long ago. Imagine if nukes had been widespread in the ancient world...

[Gigei]

Basically you start up an empire, build it up then some overpowered/immortal douche bag suddenly turns up and reduces everything to cinders - repeat cycle for millenia lol.

For example, we recently had one of the Malazan ancient dragon-Tiste try to destroy Lether because he is mad at their distant ancestors...I bet it happens a lot.

[elmis]

This sounds like Chris Wooding's Tales of the Ketty Jay series, starting with Retribution Falls and The Black-Lung Captain. It's an excellent series.

If you mean guns and magic (not 'modern' guns), Paul Kearney's Monarchies of God series may be up your street, set in Renaissance times with guns and cannon instead of a Medieval period.

Thanks for the tips Wert, I'll check them out. :)