The Robert Baratheon Hate thread

[arek]

Hey everyone Ive seen tons of forums hating, Sansa, Catelyn & Dany (ironically fewer hating Jaime, Tyrion...etc)

Now I know the reason I dont see any hate threads bout Gregor, Lorch or Hoat is because everyone knows they are scum.

People discuss Cat, Dany & Sansa because the forum is divided on them in what people think of them in terms of character.

But im suprised bout all the I read bout Robert and everyone seems to like him, I dont get this reasoning

The only thing he did that was good was sparing barristans life, but thats a noble warrior thinking mentality (Blackfyre dismounted to make sure Corbray didnt get trampled & the knight "Fireball" spared the life of a younger son as a kindness to his mother). The idiot Robert thought himself Heroic, but just as many of his actions arent.

Having an orgy with ever woman in the Peach while he thought supposedly his beloved was being raped (either A: He knew she wasnt kidnapped or B: Didnt care at that moment) & if A is correct it makes Elia & her children even more unforgiveable.

Elia and her children, calling the bodies of a four year old girl, a baby and a mother dragonspawn and being pleased they are dead. Ned Stark knew it was wrong but Robert didnt care, that was pure cowardice.

Bedding a woman at Casterly Rock getting her pregnant then turning a blind eye as the babes are killed (or not caring enough to find out). Beating his wife just for not being quiet (Lyanna wouldn't be the silent placid wife either). Even raping his wife (thats what it was).

Being an asshole to Stannis, blaming him for Dany & visery escaping, giving Storms End to renly instead of Stannis. Stannis may not have been loving but he was loyal, Robert owed him much more then what he gave him.

Robert was a brave warrior, but outside the battlefield he was an emotional coward. He ironically became another Aegon the Unworthy

[Datepalm]

hear hear!

Also for being a incompetent and wasteful ruler (Thats not abstract money! Its taxes! Taxes are fuckng sacred.:commie:)

And I suppose this is a tiny thing, really, in the moral sense, but being a bad and manipulative friend to Ned, who deserved better.

[Theon Ramone]

I think King Robert was a pretty cool guy, :smoking:

kills princes with warhammers and isn't afraid of anything. :fencing:

[Lady Blackfish]

Yeah, pretty much. I think he's a well articulated character and I appreciate the effectiveness of the craft, but as a person he kinda sucks. Not evil but way not cool.

[arek]

kills princes with warhammers and isn't afraid of anything

Isnt afraid of anything except facing the women the morning after he beds them, being a father, being responsible, being accountable and being just (Elia,Myach)

Kills princes with warhammers or lets an 8 foot tall brute kill a baby prince for him, then turns away from the body.

[Jaime L]

The only thing he did that was good was sparing barristans life, but thats a noble warrior thinking mentality (Blackfyre dismounted to make sure Corbray didnt get trampled & the knight "Fireball" spared the life of a younger son as a kindness to his mother). The idiot Robert thought himself Heroic, but just as many of his actions arent.

That's not the only good thing he did. Robert's somewhere in between. He did good early in his life by overthrowing a sadistic despot, Later in life his primary sin was allowing evil to occur all around him rather than directly propgating most of it. But I don't think he directly participated in "evil acts"*. He was completely unqualified to be king, but hey, he was still better than the guy who came before and the one who came after. His reign would've been looked upon far more favorably if he hadn't been surrounded by such a pit of vipers.

*Outside of sending an assassain to kill a 13 year old pregnant girl but in fairness considering the example of Darkstar and Myrcella, he had no reasonable basis to conclude he would actually be successful. Killing preteen girls is tough!

Being an asshole to Stannis

Let's be clear. No-one likes Stannis.

[Alexia]

I love this thread. :grouphug:

He has no spine. He lets Cersei have Sansa's wolf killed even though he knows its based on a lie.

And he was just a jerk to deflower Delena Florent in Stannis' wedding bed. :stillsick:

[Jaime L]

And he was just a jerk to deflower Delena Florent in Stannis' wedding bed. :stillsick:

In his defense, he was horny.

[Lady Blackfish]

Let's be clear. No-one likes Stannis.

Aww, but don't you think that it would have gone a long way in alleviating some of Stannis' grudge against the world if Robert had just appreciated his efforts? It's like that kid who grows up bitter at never having his father's love, he's still a bitter person but that love could've made all the difference. Only here it's a big brother's acknowledgment.

Poor Stannis, all he wanted was a little respect.

[Theon Ramone]

I never said he was perfect. :rolleyes:

I like that he was probably one of the worst kings over the past 300 years, and he wasn't afraid to admit it. He was irresponsible about his children, all of them, but not afraid.

He did many things that were wrong, Aegon and Rhaenys etc., but still a pretty cool dude imo. :leaving:

[Jaime L]

Aww, but don't you think that it would have gone a long way in alleviating some of Stannis' grudge against the world if Robert had just appreciated his efforts? It's like that kid who grows up bitter at never having his father's love, he's still a bitter person but that love could've made all the difference. Only here it's a big brother's acknowledgment.

I think that's probably true. Robert certainly could've been a better brother in half a hundred ways. But I also imagine Stannis was never easy to love. He's generally agreed to being a humorless Puritan and I suspect he's always been this way. You couldn't have picked someone more different than Robert for a brother and I think one of Robert's greatest sins: his shallowness served the Baratheon boys poorly here. But I don't imagine Stannis was the kind of person that was ever easy to love.

But I do agree he deserved more for his faithful service to Robert.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think that's probably true. Robert certainly could've been a better brother in half a hundred ways. But I also imagine Stannis was never easy to love. He's generally agreed to being a humorless Puritan and I suspect he's always been this way. You couldn't have picked someone more different than Robert for a brother and I think one of Robert's greatest sins: his shallowness served the Baratheon boys poorly here. But I don't imagine Stannis was the kind of person that was ever easy to love.

But I do agree he deserved more for his faithful service to Robert.

That's one thing I find interesting about Stannis: he says all he wants respect because he's hard to love and he knows it. But that's for the Stannis thread.

Renly and Robert actually seem like they would've gotten along okay, but it didn't seem like Robert hung out with him much either. Robert's leadership fail kind of goes way back to childhood, where he became the default parent after his parents' death but doesn't really seem to have delivered in that role. Not an evil thing of course, he's just utterly the wrong man for every job life throws his way. Interestingly though, Robert knows that about himself. Dunno if that makes it any better or not.

[Rockroi]

This thread is looooooong overdue.

Robert Baratheon was not evil, he was not sadistic, cruel, or mean in how he ruled (turned out he was all 3 to Cersei).

But he was myopic, lazy, completely indifferent to the course and trajectory of his realm. He was a terrible ruler, an indifferent judge and a lazy controller of his state. In the 15 years since his victory on the Trident Robert:

1. Beggared the realm;

2. Allowed disunion to spread to, effectively, all 7 kingdoms;

3. Allowed the realm to become, in effect, a wholly owned subsidiary of House Lannister (I have nothing against Tywin, frankly; but no ONE kingdom should have as much power in Wesetroes as the Lannisters did in the 15 years of Robert's reign);

4. Ignored the troubles of the ream until they blew up in his face;

5. Detached himself from any allies;

6. Allowed miscreants and dealmakers to take over his kingdom.

But privately, Robert the Unruly was even worse. He whored his whole life, planting bastards throughout the realm in direct danger to (who he thought were) his own trueborn children, thus potentially jeopardizing the realm; he treated Cersei like crap; beat her; whispered his dead betrothed's name to her; was perpetually drunk and effectively killed himself.

In the 1/2 of ONE book we see Robert:

-He ordered Ned to Kill Lady (go fuck yourself, Robert. Seriously).

-He hit Cersei;

-He does not recall Jaime for the attack on Ned's men in KL (this warranted AT LEAST an investigation);

-He does not call Tywin nor Cat for disturbing the King's peace;

-He spends money without regard when he knows or should have known that the realm is destitute;

-Flaunts his affection for his long dead betrothed right in front of Cersei (I mean, Robert, you are going to be in Winterfell for 2 weeks- the crypts can't wait until your wife is not... right the fuck there, in broad daylight with everyone watching? Jerk).

Now, I know Robert had a lot going against him. But Targs reigned over Westeros for 300 years before they had a back breaking war of succession; Robert's realm lasted all of 13 years under him. That's hardly a noteworthy accomplishment.

[Alexia]

-Flaunts his affection for his long dead betrothed right in front of Cersei (I mean, Robert, you are going to be in Winterfell for 2 weeks- the crypts can't wait until your wife is not... right the fuck there, in broad daylight with everyone watching? Jerk).

Ooh, that was awful. Ned loved him for it too. :stillsick: Seriously, you are going to make everyone stand outside and wait for you, including your wife and children, while you go moon over a body in a crypt and let everyone know how you loved her so much more. Can't you even feign some respect?

[Jaime L]

This thread is looooooong overdue.

Robert Baratheon was not evil, he was not sadistic, cruel, or mean in how he ruled (turned out he was all 3 to Cersei).

But he was myopic, lazy, completely indifferent to the course and trajectory of his realm. He was a terrible ruler, an indifferent judge and a lazy controller of his state. In the 15 years since his victory on the Trident Robert:

1. Beggared the realm;

2. Allowed disunion to spread to, effectively, all 7 kingdoms;

3. Allowed the realm to become, in effect, a wholly owned subsidiary of House Lannister (I have nothing against Tywin, frankly; but no ONE kingdom should have as much power in Wesetroes as the Lannisters did in the 15 years of Robert's reign);

4. Ignored the troubles of the ream until they blew up in his face;

5. Detached himself from any allies;

6. Allowed miscreants and dealmakers to take over his kingdom.

This is all evidence of his being a poor ruler. There's no disagreement there. But this is mitigated to me for two reasons:

1) It's not like Westeros has had a succession of good or wise rulers. For the most part, I get the feeling they're mostly varying shades of bad. And for as bad as we know him to be, we've witnessed far, far worse.

2) He never wanted to rule. He just had the best claim for reasons entirely out of his control. Hate the unmeritocratic, pure nepotistic game, not the player.

Now, I know Robert had a lot going against him. But Targs reigned over Westeros for 300 years before they had a back breaking war of succession; Robert's realm lasted all of 13 years under him. That's hardly a noteworthy accomplishment.

That's a bit unfair of a comparison. Robert's rebellion opened pandora's box and created the seed of future rebellions just by its very act. Further, once the Targaryens, who ruled the realm so peacefully for so long solely because they had dragons (the nuclear arms of the day) were deposed, the legitimacy of rule came down to being based purely on who had the power to seize the crown. Look at Renly and Robb becoming Kings...they had no legitimacy, solely power. Infact the Targaryens were only legitimate because of the power they wielded too.

And BTW, it's also a little harder trying to keep a realm from fracturing when your quueenly wife is sleeping around behind your back, with her brother no less, creating monstrous incestuous spawn with awful names and haircuts. Yes, Robert planted bastards throughout the realm, but the realm fractured not because of them...but because of whom his wife was sleeping with.

[Alexia]

2) He never wanted to rule. Hate the unmeritocratic, pure nepotistic game, not the player.

Then maybe he shouldn't have, you know, killed the last heir and declared for the throne? :dunno:

And BTW, it's also a little harder trying to keep a realm from fracturing when your quueenly wife is sleeping around behind your back, with her brother no less, creating monstrous incestuous spawn with awful names and haircuts. Yes, Robert planted bastards throughout the realm, but the realm fractured not because of them...but because of whom his wife was sleeping with.

Poetic justice and proof there is indeed a god...the irony is absolutely delicious. If any man in this series deserved to be horned by his wife and her brother, Robert is certainly the one. Maybe if he had thought of being faithful to her, she would have returned the courtesy? After all, she didn't restart her relationship with Jaime until after he'd said another woman's name on their wedding night, and gone off to sleep with another woman when they were on a visit of state. Forgive me for not crying any tears for him.

I don't quite get how who Cersei was sleeping with made it more difficult for him to rule though, could you expand on that a little?

[Jaime L]

Then maybe he shouldn't have, you know, killed the last heir and declared for the throne? :dunno:

Kinda made it tough when he came to believe the last heir raped the woman he loved, and the last heir's father boiled his best friend's brother and father alive. Makes it a little tough to turn the other cheek.

Poetic justice and proof there is indeed a god...the irony is absolutely delicious. If any man in this series deserved to be horned by his wife and her brother, Robert is certainly the one. Maybe if he had thought of being faithful to her, she would have returned the courtesy? After all, she didn't restart her relationship with Jaime until after he'd said another woman's name on their wedding night, and gone off to sleep with another woman when they were on a visit of state. Forgive me for not crying any tears for him.

There's no doubt in mind, gentle Cersei would've been a loving and attentive wife had he not said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. Infact her turning into the person she became was assuredly entirely due to that one specific moment in time. :P

I don't quite get how who Cersei was sleeping with made it more difficult for him to rule though, could you expand on that a little?

The point wasn't about him ruling. The point was in reference to Rockroi's point that the realm fracturing because of his failings. My point is a large part of the realm fracturing was due to his wife sleeping around with her brother and causing the 3 most honorbound men in the realm to start suspecting that maybe Robert's kids weren't legitimate.

[Lady Blackfish]

There's no doubt in mind, gentle Cersei would've been a loving and attentive wife had he not said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. Infact her turning into the person she became was assuredly entirely due to that one specific moment in time. :P

I think Robert and Cersei both contributed to the failure of their marriage, but I do kinda believe that at one point Cersei did dig being married to Robert. There is a moment in AFFC where she recalls her wedding day, her and Robert stepping out from the great sept to the thunderous applause of their subjects. Even if it was just the thrill of being a worshiped queen, Cersei did seem amenable in that brief moment -- and then he called her "Lyanna". Even then it's impossible to say for sure had that one event not occurred, who would have cheated first. Though Cersei never actually did anything to prompt Robert's cheating, whereas that event did matter to Cersei, petty though she may be for it (and shallow; I bet she liked Robert better when he was hawt).

I think they both contributed to the failure of the realm too, but I think Cersei was more forced into her role as an heir bearer for Robert than Robert was into the role of being king (we can argue that neither of them really wanted those things specifically, though Cersei wouldn'tve minded bearing Rhaegar's heirs). Cersei's actions immediately predicated a war, but Robert's (in)actions slowly caused a widespread decay.

[Jaime L]

I think Robert and Cersei both contributed to the failure of their marriage, but I do kinda believe that at one point Cersei did dig being married to Robert. There is a moment in AFFC where she recalls her wedding day, her and Robert stepping out from the great sept to the thunderous applause of their subjects. Even if it was just the thrill of being a worshiped queen, Cersei did seem amenable in that brief moment -- and then he called her "Lyanna". Even then it's impossible to say for sure had that one event not occurred, who would have cheated first. Though Cersei never actually did anything to prompt Robert's cheating, whereas that event did matter to Cersei, petty though she may be for it (and shallow; I bet she liked Robert better when he was hawt).

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, but I will say, this is Cersei's POV choosing how she wants to remember that time. I don't think anyone sees themselves as a bad person, even Cersei. And we do find ways to justify it...no matter what.

Also, I think Cersei is what she is and she's always been this way. Tyrion's POV has provided with all the information we need to know of what Cersei was like as a child. She can blame Robert for why she had to run to Jaime, but really I suspect she would've ended up there sooner or later regardless.

Cersei's actions immediately predicated a war, but Robert's (in)actions slowly caused a widespread decay.

I agree Robert should shoulder a significant portion of the blame for his negligence and incompetence. I just know there is no War of Kings without the actions of the Lannisters and Cersei in particular.

[Alexia]

There's no doubt in mind, gentle Cersei would've been a loving and attentive wife had he not said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. Infact her turning into the person she became was assuredly entirely due to that one specific moment in time. :P

Sadly, we'll never know. He was such a terrible husband that she decided to repay him with his own coin. And any complaints he might have about that would make him...a hypocrite. ;)

The point wasn't about him ruling. The point was in reference to Rockroi's point that the realm fracturing because of his failings. My point is a large part of the realm fracturing was due to his wife sleeping around with her brother and causing the 3 most honorbound men in the realm to start suspecting that maybe Robert's kids weren't legitimate.

That was far from the entire reason the realm started to fracture though. Robert turned a blind eye to dishonorable conduct in his own realm. He ignored LF's embezzlement, condoned Slynt's graft and bribe-taking. He had no spine (except when it came to hitting women) and was pretty much a sock puppet for House Lannister, ignoring Jaime's attack on Ned in the streets, ordering Lady to be killed on his wife's whim, etc. Robert was a weak king and a weak man.