The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII

[Lady Blackfish]

Continued from part VII here.

[Curethan]

I'm just reading through the books for the second time, and this seems fairly likely to me. I haven't read all the previous threads, I'm afraid, but I would like to comment on the 'blue rose on a wall of ice' link that was previously mentioned.

In addition to Rheagar crowning Lyanna the queen of beauty before 'kidnapping' her (with a blue rose IRC?), when Ygritte meets Jon she relates the tale of Bael (a storied King beyond the Wall) fathering a Stark child (and later heir) on a previous Brandon's daughter - which also included kidnapping and a blue rose from the glass gardens at Winterfell.

Don't know if this has been noted before, sorry if it has.

edit: ah I just found that the last post on the old thread brought this up :P

[Liliedhe]

To play advocatus diaboli^^ - that story is more of an argument against Jon being Rhaegar's and Lyanna's. Because where's the point in rehashing history? It's far more likely old things are brought up to be alluded to and then subverted. :fencing:

[Curethan]

Well yeah, I didn't really know what to make of it. I tend to agree that R+L=J because it was my thought on first reading many years ago and after reading about some of the justifactions here, this kinda jumped at me on the second read.

My only thought was that it was a hint (or misleading obfuscation), as tbh, I did not recall the rose that R gave L being blue and thus did not link the blue rose from Danni's experience in the palace of shadows with the wall of ice.

[greedcrow]

Well wasnt the flower that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the same flower that she had when they found her dying, not only that wasnt it a frozen something the name of the flower?

[Lady Blackfish]

It's the same kind of flower, blue roses.

[Liliedhe]

I took it was the same crown of flowers. Since by the time they found her, the flowers were dead and black. And - can't check this atm - I seem to recall it was a crown, not just any flowers.

The crown he gave her were blue winterroses, same as the flowers in the story.

[Lady Blackfish]

Yeah I think it's the same too, but technically I suppose it could be a new one. It'd seem like a pointless story device though, and it's much more dramatic if it was the very same one.

[Curethan]

Later in CoK, Theon has a dream with all the dead Starks in it (it's after he has captured Winterfell). He identifies Lyanna by the crown of blue roses in her hair. The dream is clearly magic/prophetic as Robb and Greywind return to the hall bearing savage wounds (i.e. also dead).

Blue roses are thematicly attatched to Lyanna and the wall of ice seems to tie to Jon.

The story of Bael is related to Jon on his first contact with a wildling beyond the wall, and bears many similarities to Jon's apparent situation including the blue rose, a forbidden love and secret heritage. Ygritte relates the tale because it demonstrates the ties the Starks have to the Wildlings, borne out perhaps by the fact that both Bran and Jon are skinchangers.

As I said above, these things could be taken either way. GRRM obviously has Jon's heritage as a card to play further down the track. To make it convincing there has to be foreshadowing and hints at the truth, but at the same time there must be red herrings and obfuscation in order for it to have impact and be surpising. Even if my suspicions on the matter were confirmed in DWD, I would certainly be happy with the way things have been seeded so far. It's not like some pedestrian tale where its a disappointment because you always knew this is how things would work out. More like a vindication of literary detective skills. :mellow:

[Darklich528]

So assuming this theory is true, is there anyone out that that can confirm it?

Howland Reed might be able to shed some light, but only if he overheard the conversation between Ned and Lyanna. Anyone else?

[Drowned Princess]

Well there's the Reed kids, they might have been told and are just keeping it quiet right now. Also I think Bran might work it out at some point, after all he has that dream where Ned is in the crypts with him trying to tell him something about Jon, so there's every chance he could see it soon enough.(Also Jon has a dream where he's wandering Winterfell and knows he has to go down into the crypts to find something but he doesn't want to...)

If the Reeds have been sent to encourage Bran to develop his abilities, and may perhaps be telling all the stories about the young Starks in order to get him thinking along those very lines, ie so he does work out the Jon-Lyanna link, then that may also be connected to everything else Bran has to do to help stop the Others, which in turn would indicate that Jon's parentage is important to that situation as well...

In terms of who else knows, there may be some folks down at Starfall who are aware since Jon seems to have been taken there and nursed for a while - I mean, if Wylla's still alive, presumably she knows if she gave birth to him or not (maybe even Ashara Dayne, also if she's still alive, but that's a different thread altogether...)

This may seem like a terribly stupid and obvious question: but if Jon knows his name day (which is mentioned in the text), and people know about Ned etc riding to get Lyanna at the ToJ, would they not twig that they were the same day, and hence A Big Coincidence? Or is the whole ToJ episode not so well documented that others would be aware of the exact day the whole incident happened? Or did Ned just lie to Jon about his birthday?

[Aryen]

Or is the whole ToJ episode not so well documented that others would be aware of the exact day the whole incident happened? Or did Ned just lie to Jon about his birthday?

Well I would expect that after the ToJ episode, when Ned takes Lyanna's body to wherever (Starfall perhaps) then he would want to find out the date of Lyanna's death, so he could write it on her gravestone maybe, or just so he could honour her death yearly. About Jon's birthday, if R+L=J is true, I doubt it'd be surprising if he just tweaked Jon's birthday slightly from a range of a few weeks.

[Curethan]

Lyanna's body is in the crypts at winterfell, is it not?

[Syleon]

Lyanna's body is in the crypts at winterfell, is it not?

Yes, she is in the crypt. Or at least from what we have been told, I doubt Ned would let his sister lie somewhere else.

A second note, as much as I am all for the R+L=J, I have a qualm.

Many people have thought that it would allow Jon to ascend to the throne, this just can't happen. Not that I wouldn't like to see that(though I prefer him as the underdog)Jon is a bastard no matter what the case is, R was already in wedlock and has had children through that marriage. Regardless of how much he "loved" L it doesn't make Jon any less of a bastard. It would be a joy to find out he was a Stargaryen or a Targaryark, but he wont be able to sit on the iron throne unless he was allowed too. Who would be able to do that, Stannis nearly gave him the rights to Winterfell, it wouldn't be likely that "Azor Ahai Reborn" would allow jon the right to the iron throne and a Targaryen wife when he himself has his claim to it.

Who else would be able to legitimize Jon? could Dany?(supposing she won the throne)

Is there anyone else?

[SFDanny]

...Jon is a bastard no matter what the case is, R was already in wedlock and has had children through that marriage.

Targaryens have been known to practice polygamy. Jon is not a bastard if Lyanna was Rhaegar's second wife. Jon is, under those circumstances, the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne - assuming his half brother Aegon is really dead.

[Syleon]

Targaryens have been known to practice polygamy. Jon is not a bastard if Lyanna was Rhaegar's second wife. Jon is, under those circumstances, the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne - assuming his half brother Aegon is really dead.

Yea I guess, but that is if they had been married before their death. I guess Rhaegar would have come to terms with not being "the prince who was promised" and set out to make him. Which would be why R. Targaryen left the some of K-guard there. Farg! Speculation is frustrating.

[Curethan]

Targaryens have been known to practice polygamy. Jon is not a bastard if Lyanna was Rhaegar's second wife. Jon is, under those circumstances, the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne - assuming his half brother Aegon is really dead.

What gives the idea he isn't dead? Would have thought that any possibility of that would be the origin of tidal waves of gossip amongst the smallfolk.

[Jurus]

When asked about Rhaenys and Aegon being dead, GRRM answered that Rhaenys is definitely dead. Though it's probably just an attempt to throw the readers off track.

[Aryen]

What gives the idea he isn't dead? Would have thought that any possibility of that would be the origin of tidal waves of gossip amongst the smallfolk.

If you read Tyrion's spoiler chapters for ADWD, there's two figures that are mentioned: Old Griff, and Young Griff. It's been thought that Old Griff = Jon Connington, the Hand who was exiled from Westeros, and that Young Griff is actually Aegon.

[Curethan]

Ah ok, thanks.