The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII

[SFDanny]

What gives the idea he isn't dead? Would have thought that any possibility of that would be the origin of tidal waves of gossip amongst the smallfolk.

Dany's vision in the Warlock's house includes a reference to a mummer's dragon, or a false dragon. My bet is that Aegon is dead, but we will see at least one person claim that he is the royal heir, survived through a switch of infants. An Anastasia scenario, if you will. Just my take on it, but as Jurus notes Martin has kept open the possibility that Aegon is alive, and I think he does so for a reason we will find out later in the series.

It would certainly be another explanation of why all of the Kingsguard trio are at the Tower of Joy - Aegon was there. Not bloody likely. ;)

Spoiler

Also, as Aryen points out we have a new character in the spoiler chapters - Young Griff - who seems poised to fulfill this role.

[Curethan]

Ah, thanks again. *strokes chin*

I think the Kingsguard at the ToJ is fairly straight forward though. Dayne was Rhaegar's best mate, after all.

[Liliedhe]

There's one thing that has been occurring to me. If we believe R+L=J, then the promise Ned thinks and dreams about is of course something along the line of "Keep my baby safe". Which he undoubtedly did. He took the boy home, raised him as his own and treated him like his other children, gave him a good education etc.

If that's it, why the heck would he angst so much about it? He did what she asked, didn't he? When he says he is haunted by lies... If the lie were merely that he claimed Jon as his son to protect him from those who intended to kill all Targ babies - what's so bad about it? He says something about honorable lies being... not exactly ok, but at least tolerable. What could be more honorable than to save a child from being slain for his blood?

Doesn't make sense to me. I think that he is haunted by this promise (and maybe by Lyanna's spirit - she never had a sword on her lap, she's waltzing through Theon's dreams, why shouldn't she be behind Ned's dreams, too?), then it has to be because he either did not keep it, or thinks about not keeping it any longer. He certainly doesn't think about revealing Jon to be killed...

Well, that's just a horribly sleepless night talking on my end^^ (it's 2AM over here)... What could she have asked that he did not keep? Maybe "Tell the truth about Rhaegar. Tell everyone he did not kidnap me, I went with him voluntarily. I don't want him to be remembered as a monster." And Ned never did that, because at that point it was too late. Also, that means that Lyanna willfully caused a war that tore the continent apart and killed her family... A reputation he might have wanted to spare her, too.

The creepy echo of Robert saying "Promise me, Ned" must have been there for a reason. He also promised Robert something he could not keep because Robert was ignorant of certain facts and he wanted to spare him the horrible ugly truth. So, whatever it was that Lyanna wanted to have promised, and that she did not get so she is haunting her brother (or that just gives him a horribly, horribly bad conscience), it might be some sort of parallel to Robert (it was a promise that was impossible to keep even as she asked it) or it was the opposite - something he could have kept, but didn't for certain reasons, whatever they may be.

[/of preaching. I should go to sleep. ^^ :leaving: ]

[Lady Blackfish]

If that's it, why the heck would he angst so much about it? He did what she asked, didn't he?

Ned does think about all the promises he's broken:

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Maybe Lyanna wanted him to make sure Jon knew about his birthright. We know that Ned is angsty about not having told Jon something he feels the boy ought to have known. Or maybe it's that he broke promises to other people in order to keep the one(s) he made to Lyanna.

[Curethan]

Ned was after vengeance for his father and brother. He lied to his wife about Jon, a lie where he casts himself into a dishonourable role.

For Ned, honour is what justifies the civil war he, Jon Arryn and Robert started and prosecuted. I would imagine he would have been happy to remove Aerys from the iron throne and replace him with one of his heirs.

Honour is very important to him and he is cognizant of many dishonourable things he has done and supported, tacitly or actively. Baby killing, treachery, murder and usurption.

If he knew that Rheagar did not rape Lyanna and that they were in love, I can't imagine him being happy about Robert killing him. He never acknowledges that it was rape when talking to Robert. Probably he found out after it was too late.

That is why he's an angsty fellow, by my estimation.

[Horza]

Yeah, that lie is a permanent wedge between him and Catelyn, one that leaves her slighted, confused and threatened. That could cause Ned some angst.

[Dimnara]

If Jon is indeed the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar it would make sense that Ned's angst is caused by the lies he is telling Robert. Robert is Ned's best friend from childhood and more importantly he is his king, Ned should really tell him the truth, but can't because of the promise he had made to Lyanna. Lyanna knew that Robert would call the babe "dragonspawn" and kill it without hesitation. I think this is also the reason why Ned is always deeply disturbed when Robert is talking about killing Viseris and Dany, knowing that Jon is so much nearer.

[Lady Blackfish]

Although technically, he never broke a promise to Catelyn on Jon's/Lyanna's account, he just had to pretend like he did. Plenty of cause for guilt, but would he really word it as "broken promises" in his internal monologue?

Maybe it's the oath of fealty sworn to his king, he feels it's compromised by harboring the Targaryen heir.

(Personally I don't think we can conclude that Ned went to war for vengeance, Aerys called for his and Robert's heads in anticipation of discontent and after that it was basically win or die for Ned, which would be cause enough, even though he may've felt it necessary to justify it by the fact that Aerys was mad and dangerous and needed deposing, as that was a cause he could really believe in fighting for.)

[Dastion]

Yes, she is in the crypt. Or at least from what we have been told, I doubt Ned would let his sister lie somewhere else.

A second note, as much as I am all for the R+L=J, I have a qualm.

Many people have thought that it would allow Jon to ascend to the throne, this just can't happen. Not that I wouldn't like to see that(though I prefer him as the underdog)Jon is a bastard no matter what the case is, R was already in wedlock and has had children through that marriage. Regardless of how much he "loved" L it doesn't make Jon any less of a bastard. It would be a joy to find out he was a Stargaryen or a Targaryark, but he wont be able to sit on the iron throne unless he was allowed too. Who would be able to do that, Stannis nearly gave him the rights to Winterfell, it wouldn't be likely that "Azor Ahai Reborn" would allow jon the right to the iron throne and a Targaryen wife when he himself has his claim to it.

Who else would be able to legitimize Jon? could Dany?(supposing she won the throne)

Is there anyone else?

Whoever rules Westeros could legitimize him. Bran, being the head of House Stark could legitimize Jon. Roose Bolton, the current Warden of the North would also have that authority, I presume.

Despite Targaryen polygamy, Jon was born out of wed-lock, and thus would still technically be illegitimate.

That said, if Dany wants a Targaryen husband, and Jon's the only game in town, I doubt his bastardy would get in her way.

[SFDanny]

Whoever rules Westeros could legitimize him. Bran, being the head of House Stark could legitimize Jon. Roose Bolton, the current Warden of the North would also have that authority, I presume.

No, by custom only a King could "legitimize" a bastard. Of course, Robb declaration as King of the North would qualify - if one recognizes him as king.

Despite Targaryen polygamy, Jon was born out of wed-lock, and thus would still technically be illegitimate.

How so? If Rhaegar and Lyanna married - she as his second wife - any children born after the ceremony, clearly Jon would qualify by the timeline, would be recognized as legitimate.

That said, if Dany wants a Targaryen husband, and Jon's the only game in town, I doubt his bastardy would get in her way.

If both assumptions are true - Jon's a Targaryen bastard and Daenerys wants to marry a Targaryen descendant - then I agree.

[Dastion]

No, by custom only a King could "legitimize" a bastard. Of course, Robb declaration as King of the North would qualify - if one recognizes him as king.

How so? If Rhaegar and Lyanna married - she as his second wife - any children born after the ceremony, clearly Jon would qualify by the timeline, would be recognized as legitimate.

If both assumptions are true - Jon's a Targaryen bastard and Daenerys wants to marry a Targaryen descendant - then I agree.

Are we talking Westerosi custom, or its real world analog? That's not a challenge, I really want to know if that subject has been comprehensively covered. If so, I'd also like to know where. If it hasn't been, then I'd expound that the Wardens of Westeros have quite a bit of temporal power, and it would make sense to me for them to have the authority to legitimize a bastard. Also, as you very nearly stated, Bran could still be recognized by some as the King of the North, having inherited the title from Robb. As the head of the Stark household, I suppose it might only be in his power to recommend Jon be legitimized, should it ever be necessary.

I was either not aware or I have forgotten that Rhaegar and Lyanna were formally married. It's been a while since I've read through the series, though I intend to remedy that as soon as I get Thrones back from whoever I lent it to.

[Lady Blackfish]

There's this from the SSM:

I have a question, since Robb actually legitimized Jon and named him his heir for Winterfell and the North before the Red Wedding (granted no one knows about this and is still alive or free, the Greatjon knows as does Edmure, but Idont see them getting out of the Twins any time soon and Catelyn would probably die before telling anyone) does this make Jon's rejection of Stannis' offer moot?

Edmure and the Greatjon are prisoners, true... but you are forgetting the envoys that Robb sent to Howland Reed... Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Jason Mallister... they are all alive and free.

As to what is and is not moot... the key point is, only a =king= can legitimize a bastard......

So that's word of god, but I wonder if that means that GRRM will necessarily have all his characters act in accordance with custom.

What I'm curious about: if Robb has Jon legitimized, would that be legitimized specifically as Eddard Stark's son? That would make it hard to argue that he's a Targaryen descendant.

[Curethan]

Although technically, he never broke a promise to Catelyn on Jon's/Lyanna's account, he just had to pretend like he did. Plenty of cause for guilt, but would he really word it as "broken promises" in his internal monologue?

Maybe it's the oath of fealty sworn to his king, he feels it's compromised by harboring the Targaryen heir.

(Personally I don't think we can conclude that Ned went to war for vengeance, Aerys called for his and Robert's heads in anticipation of discontent and after that it was basically win or die for Ned, which would be cause enough, even though he may've felt it necessary to justify it by the fact that Aerys was mad and dangerous and needed deposing, as that was a cause he could really believe in fighting for.)

Well, not sure about wedding vows in Westeros but I'm fairly sure promising not to lie would be in there. Also leaving straight after the wedding and coming back with a bastard son a year or two later may qualify as a broken promise ;).

I have the feeling that the broken promises related to Lyanna or Robert. I don't think that he could have gotten through that situation without breaking promises to one or the other, probably having to choose which to keep and which to break as the reality of the situation changed as he learned exactly what was going on. I can see him promising to return with Lyanna to Robert for example.

Ned may not have gone to war only for vengeance, but I am sure he fought hard for it.

[SFDanny]

Are we talking Westerosi custom, or its real world analog? That's not a challenge, I really want to know if that subject has been comprehensively covered. If so, I'd also like to know where.

No problem, and yes, we are talking Westerosi custom not the real world. This topic has been covered extensively in the previous threads on this subject, but I know they are a pain to read. Debates have raged over whether the discussion between Bran, Ser Rodrik Cassel, and Maester Luwin about the possibility of a bastard inheriting means that a Lord could make a bastard legitimate. Suffice it to say that LB's reference - if nothing else - settles the topic for most.

I was either not aware or I have forgotten that Rhaegar and Lyanna were formally married. It's been a while since I've read through the series, though I intend to remedy that as soon as I get Thrones back from whoever I lent it to.

No, please don't get me wrong. There is nothing in the text that says Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, just as there is nothing in the text that says Jon is their son. That being said, it has been argued - by me for one - that the presence of the Kingsguard trio at the Tower of Joy, as opposed to at least one of them racing to join Viserys on Dragonstone, is best explained by the presence of the heir to the throne at the Tower. The first duty of the Kingsguard, as Jaime tells us, is to protect the king, not his son's mistress, nor his bastard child, and not the child of a disproven understanding of prophecy, but to protect the king. Yet, if Ned's dream is to be believed - which I do in its main particulars - these three paragons of "Kingsguarddom" knowingly ignore this first duty to guard Viserys, and instead seemingly follow their dead Prince's last orders in contradiction to their oaths. I think that calls into question whether or not the heir - either a baby Jon or an infant Aegon - is there with the trio. I would continue to argue that fits best with what we know about the events at this time. If they are there to guard the heir, and Jon is that heir, that can only be so if Rheagar and Lyanna were married.

[Syleon]

What I'm curious about: if Robb has Jon legitimized, would that be legitimized specifically as Eddard Stark's son? That would make it hard to argue that he's a Targaryen descendant.

How could Robb make Jon legit? Yes he mentioned to a few men that he named Jon his heir to the throne, but is that a real contract? Also how would a few stark bannermen be able to prove that when a Bolton is now the warden of the north? The hope should be that Dany wins the thrones legitimizes Jon and then they get married! Wedding bells are ringing! ( What I find gloriously messed up is that we are routing for an incestuous relationship, and hoping for the possible blood link between the two who should be wed..Go inbreeding!)

[toomeymann]

Hey all. Just finished my first time through the books and my ego has been thoroughly deflated since finding this forum. I thought I would be one of the few who theorized on Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Jon; but I fear I am a decade behind and few ideas short. I have a question that may have (read: definitely has) been covered here to which I have not been able to find the proper thread.

If "Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon" is true, through what vessel will the information present itself?

I see a couple of options (please be kind as I just, like 3 hours ago, finished A Feast for Crows)

1. Sam Tarly - Sam may come upon some information while studying at the Citadel that could trigger an investigation. All the pieces are here; location, character interest in subject, a plethora of books and histories, and Sam's well established love of learning and reading. Could set up a nice sequence for Sam in an upcoming book.

2. The Crypt - I always felt that GRRM established the crypt with the intention of it being important throughout the series. Also with Eddard's insistence that Lyanna be taken back to Winterfell leads me to believe that her grave holds some piece of information that Eddard wanted deep in the hallows of his keep.

3. Benjen Stark as Coldhands - If Eddard Stark would have told anyone of Jon's parentage it could have possibly been his younger brother who in turn may be Coldhands. I know, a stretch.

4. Unresolved - One of my favorite aspects of GRRM's writing is his ability to break away from sentiment and typical fantasy tropes naturally. He leads me one way and breaks away in a way I at first never saw coming (the best for me was the transformation of Jamie Lannister after getting in his head with the POV) I could totally see the series unfolding in a way that we, the readers, can be fairly certain that R+L=J is true, but the secret died with Eddard Stark in Game of Thrones. Leading to a situation in which Jon never realizes the invading queen Dany is his aunt, nor that he has a claim to the throne which, to me, would epitomize tragedy. Again, I think of how Jon realized and revered Maester Aemon for his selflessness. Jon, could in turn be the old man who dies with the Night's Watch while someone else sits on his throne.

Again, I apologize if this has all been a rehash, or has been proven wrong in 2005; but wanted to join the boards and say hello. You all have such keen insights and passion for these amazing books and I wanted to throw my thoughts out there.

[FalseSpring]

First of all, I think the timing of getting Jon & the Tower of Joy makes is a big hint that Jon IS Lyanna and Rheagar's son.

BUT .. I think the biggest flaw with this theory is that it makes Ned Stark so flawless and faithful and honorable ec. The truth is that Ned Stark isn't flawless. He broke a promise. If the promise was to tell Jon who he was, that's not necessarily a broken promise, just one he hasn't fulfilled yet. When he was in the cell, he thought he was going to the Wall, where Jon was. He could tell Jon once and for all and his promise would be kept. If this was the promise, he should have been looking forward to going to the Wall.

But he wasn't. So, I think that clears out the promise being "tell him who he is blah blah blah".

I think Ned Stark did something very very bad, much worse than fathering a bastard or hiding Jon's Parentage.

It was somehow easier to face his wife and live his life admitting he was unfaithful than to admit to what he truly did.

I'm not sure what it was, but I have a good feeling that in the end of these books, Ned Stark's honor will not be scrubbed clean.

The promise was broken. in the past tense. So it was probably something he did there at the tower of joy or shortly after.

It's possible that Jon had a twin, who Ned killed out of rage when Lyanna died. Something of this sort. (Maybe Ned killed Aegon?) Lyanna probably asked him to keep her children safe, but he killed one of them. This is a perfect parallel to Robert on his deathbed, who asked the same thing, and Ned knew he couldn't.

There are 3 heads to the dragon - I think Ned killed one of them.

I think this is also why Ned is so adamant against killing children. He has the blood on his hands and feels constant guilt for it.

Thanks for reading :)

[FalseSpring]

If "Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon" is true, through what vessel will the information present itself?

Howland Reed - who hasn't been introduced yet, but was there at the Tower of Joy, and the only living eyewitness to what exactly happened and where Jon came from.

[SFDanny]

Howland Reed - who hasn't been introduced yet, but was there at the Tower of Joy, and the only living eyewitness to what exactly happened and where Jon came from.

When Ned is found grieving over Lyanna's dead body the pronoun Martin uses is "they," as in "they found him." Obviously, unless Martin made a mistake in his writing, there was more than just Howland Reed and Eddard Stark left at the Tower of Joy. Who that person, or persons, could be has been a source of much debate in these threads. Wylla's name is mentioned as a candidate most often, but others - Marwyn, Ashara, etc.- have been put forward as well.

I would also think that the big reveal of Jon's mystery parent(s) doesn't happen in one conversation between Jon and Howland Reed. And Howland may not know all of the mystery himself. For instance, he may not know if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. We are likely to get bits of information leaked from different sources - Selmy for one. Possibly Wylla or Marwyn or some unexpected source. Lastly, I'd note that the revelation of the secret to the reader and to any of the characters are two very different things. In the end, I have no doubt we will know, but whether Jon ever knows is another matter.

[Darklich528]

I don't think the young King Aegon is alive, unless there was some baby swapping shenanigans. And if so, why not swap the other child as well? Aerys seemed to insane to come up with such a plot and I can't believe for one second that Rhaegar would save his son and concede his daughter, especially if he thought there was some kind of prophecy to fulfill.

My guess is the same as the above poster. A new character will come forward claiming to be Aegon, but it's a lie.