Jump to content

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII


Lady Blackfish

Recommended Posts

I had a big post written but instead I've decided to simply state:

It's possible that "The Prophecy" meant more to Rhaegar Targaryen and his followers than we can ever imagine. Just like Stannis has so completely adopted the Lord of Light and believes he is the promised champion.

Given the circumstances, it does seem odd that Rhaegar would send his three best men to guard Lyanna in the Tower of Joy when there was imminent threat elsewhere where they could have been infinitely more useful. First, why bring Lyanna there? Why not bring her somewhere even safer for the birth? (Perhaps even into King's Landing?) Second, why send those three, specifically? A band of 10 armed soldiers would have probably been better protection there but less useful than 3 experienced KG in a battle. (If you know what I'm trying to say)

Even if they were guarding a legitimate heir, they had the king and the crown prince and the crown prince's first heir to protect. I understand Rhaegar loved Lyanna and wanted to protect his child, but it seems like a poor decision to send those three specifically when like I said a host of 10-15 armed soldiers, or even lesser members of the KG could have worked much better, especially considering that 4 of the 7 houses just took up banners against the king and realm.

So now I submit to you this theory: That those 3 KG were there not because the young child was an heir or king, but because that baby would be part of the prophecy that would save humankind. And it was those 3 specifically because Rhaegar could trust no other... And these 3 KG believe with all their heart in Rhaegar and "The Prophecy", enough to possibly throw their lives away. When Ned stumbled upon them I imagine they were ready to mobilize once the child or mother or both were healthy enough for the trip. Perhaps they were waiting for supplies. I don't really know.

Now after hearing the news of Rhaegar and his children's deaths, that doesn't mean "The Prophecy" was incorrect. (Obviously it was wrong for Rhaegar's children...) It could simply mean that the child would have a slightly different place in it. Perhaps they didn't hand his over to Ned because they thought Robert would kill it on sight, and it was safer with them until they were well enough to travel.

Ok that post was way longer than I originally anticipated. But after typing it it seems a little out there.

My new theory is that Rhaegar was so in love with Lyanna that he made an irrational decision on who to send to protect her, possibly motivated by "The Prophecy" but maybe not. But I do think that being best friends (a.k.a. trust) with Dayne had a huge impact on his decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me the idea that Rhaeger had convinced the kingsguard about the importance of the prophecy to such a degree that they broke their vows to help doesnt really wash.

They seem swelled with pride when they face Ned and his men,contemptous of all that have failed the king, it seems strange to me that they would be that arrogant if they forsaken their vows. and for the same reason "we swore a vow" make no sense if they if its not in reference to the kingsguard vow. There is no point in a forsworn person taking an oath.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree it's not about hindsight, These are celeberties with command experience. Not placing them in a position where they can have an impact for the preservation of the Targaryen dynasty requires an explanation.

Umm, they were already at ToJ with Rhaegar and Lyana, right?

3-4 KG with the King and the rest of the Targs, 3-4 with Rhaegar and Lyana, secluded away at the ToJ. Oddly enough, the ones with Rhaegar are his closest friends.

Then Connington loses a battle and is exiled and Rhaegar is sent for to deal with the rebellion.

Rhaegar leaves 3 KG behind with Lyana (the three he loves and trusts most) and hurries back to KL, possibly with another KG (I have a vague memory of reading on the boards that Rhaegar and one other rode together back to KL, but really that isn't necessary).

Rhaegar takes 3 KG from KL with him in the field army to fight the rebels and leaves 1 KG behind with several thousand troops and a fleet, in an impregnable castle at the centre of Targ power, to guard the King and the rest of the Targ family.

At this stage there is no reason to recall the KG that are with Lyanna - they won't get back in time anyway and Rhaegar already has 3 experienced KG members to assist him in battle. He surely doesn't want to leave Lyana unprotected either, whether or not the child she is carrying is key to prophecy.

Why not?

Let us momentarily put aside the whole dishonourable thing, fleeing with a baby king and leaving the kings mother to die alone, when it is not a life and death situation for the king - and in fact puts the kings life at greater risk than waiting (newborn, travelling, no mother)!

Let us look ahead 10-15 yrs to a youthful Targ royal in exile...

Targ: "So, let me get this straight, the war was lost but you were in no immediate danger and you fled, leaving my mother to die?"

KG: "Err, yes your majesty. We fled before danger was imminent. We let your mother die alone. She might have lived, she might even still be alive. ... It seemed like a good idea at the time..."

Given the circumstances, it does seem odd that Rhaegar would send his three best men to guard Lyanna in the Tower of Joy when there was imminent threat elsewhere where they could have been infinitely more useful. First, why bring Lyanna there? Why not bring her somewhere even safer for the birth? (Perhaps even into King's Landing?) Second, why send those three, specifically?

Send? Bring Lyanna there?

Surely they were already there with Rhaegar and Lyanna (his closest companions remember, and 3/7 KG with the heir to the throne who is lying low having just eloped with an extremely important young noblewoman) having a quiet little 'holiday' together (lying low), when it was interrupted by news that Connington the Hand had lost a battle and been exiled and Rhaegar was required to come home and deal with the pesky rebels.

So he leaves them there, protecting Lyanna. He can't easily take her back to KL. Not only are the original reasons for lying low still valid, but she must be at least 7+ months pregnant and unable to travel fast.

To me the idea that Rhaeger had convinced the kingsguard about the importance of the prophecy to such a degree that they broke their vows to help doesnt really wash.

They seem swelled with pride when they face Ned and his men,contemptous of all that have failed the king, it seems strange to me that they would be that arrogant if they forsaken their vows. and for the same reason "we swore a vow" make no sense if they if its not in reference to the kingsguard vow. There is no point in a forsworn person taking an oath.

Agreed. No way had they broken any vows. Not those men, not with their history, their reputations, their attitude or their deeds.

They may or may not have known about the prophecy and been convinced of it's applicability and importance, but they surely did not (need to?) put it ahead of their existing vows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Umm, they were already at ToJ with Rhaegar and Lyana, right?

I'm fairly certain that all we know was a couple of them were sent by Aerys to recall the crown prince.

3-4 KG with the King and the rest of the Targs, 3-4 with Rhaegar and Lyana, secluded away at the ToJ. Oddly enough, the ones with Rhaegar are his closest friends.

Barristan said that Rhaegar was quite reserved and that Dayne was his oldest friend, nothing about the others.

Rhaegar takes 3 KG from KL with him in the field army to fight the rebels and leaves 1 KG behind with several thousand troops and a fleet, in an impregnable castle at the centre of Targ power, to guard the King and the rest of the Targ family.

At this stage there is no reason to recall the KG that are with Lyanna - they won't get back in time anyway and Rhaegar already has 3 experienced KG members to assist him in battle. He surely doesn't want to leave Lyana unprotected either, whether or not the child she is carrying is key to prophecy.

No one argues that he should leave her unprotected, just that leaving the lord commander of the kingsguard, guarding his mistress when the war hangs in the balance and there is no immediate threat to her makes no sense.

They may or may not have known about the prophecy and been convinced of it's applicability and importance, but they surely did not (need to?) put it ahead of their existing vows.

Well I guess its possibly that they ditched their vows in order to safeguard "the prohepcy that would save the world" TM, but in that case they shouldnt be so high and mighty speaking of those that stayed true and actually saved what was left of the the royal family they failed to protect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's assume for a second that Rhaegar had indeed send 3 KG to protect the Tower of Joy, before either Lyanna or the realm were in imminent danger. He left 4 to guard the king and realm. I can accept that. Especially since it went from a near standstill to bam lost in the blink of an eye. No one could have predicted that a member of your own KG would assassinate the king, and your gates would simply be opened to an ally turned traitor.

Now the question remains, why did he send his three best KG to the Tower of Joy. Surely he could have foreseen some kind of battle looming where those 3 men would make or break the outcome. Why didn't he send 3 other KG? Or 2 even?

My guess is that the prophecy was so important to him, or his love for Lyanna so strong (and secretive) that he sent his most loyal and trustworthy KG to defend his newborn child. (Who also just happened to be his best chance at winning a battle) Stupid, in hindsight. But love makes people do stupid things.

That's all I got. =\

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is this clear?

Good question, but first let me say, "Wow, just Wow," it's good to see you back posting in these threads! ;) For those who haven't read all the eight parts of the R+L=J threads Enguerrand is the poster, as far as I know, who came up with, and championed, the theory that some of the members of the Kingsguard Trio were likely used for other missions as well as guarding Lyanna. I've always thought of it as an intriguing idea and valued your contributions to this debate. Welcome back to them. We need snake, Sarella, Shewoman, and many of the other old contributors back as well.

How do we know the orders that place the Kingsguard at the Tower came from Rhaegar or Aerys? First, there is the quote by Martin saying,

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." Jon Targaryen's Post

bold emphasis added

The quote makes it clear something we know from other sources, that the Kingsguard must follow the orders of not only the King, but other members of the Royal Family as well. Baelor Breakspear and Prince Maekar’s orders to the Kingsguard in preparation at the Trial of Seven at Ashford Meadow would be other examples of this. The Kingsguard undoubtably are bound by their oaths to follow the orders of all the members of the Royal Family, but it is also clear from the reaction from Darry to the rape of Rhaella by Aerys that not all Royals are equal. If the King says to do one thing and the Crown Prince or the Queen Mother say to do another, the King’s order prevails.

So, who gave the orders to the Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy? Aerys and Rhaegar have to be the logical candidates. Loyal members of the Kingsguard would follow Aerys’s orders, and when Rhaegar takes up command of the response to the rebellion when he comes North this includes the positioning of the Kingsguard. This is shown when it is to Rhaegar that the young Jaime goes to plea to be allowed to go to the Trident. Rhaegar tells Jaime the reason he doesn’t allow Jaime to go is to pacify his Father’s paranoia regarding Tywin (is it “paranoia” when they ARE out to get you?) but it is Rhaegar who makes the decision. Given all of this, and Martin’s unprompted volunteering of Rhaegar’s name in the quote above, Rhaegar is almost certainly the person responsible, with Aerys a very distant second. I think we can safely rule out Rhaella, Elia, or the children.

I disagree it's not about hindsight, These are celeberties with command experience. Not placing them in a position where they can have an impact for the preservation of the Targaryen dynasty requires an explanation.

We know Hightower has command experience leading a small body of men to guard the King, but do we know he has commanded large bodies of troops in the field? Dayne was in command of doing away with the Kingswood Brotherhood, so he would fit your characterization, but I don’t know that other than being well known that Hightower and Whent do. It’s a honest question. Do you know of any references to Ser Gerold or Ser Oswell commanding troops?

But regardless of the facts surrounding the nature of their undoubted experience, I disagree with one aspect of your statement. The assignment to guard Lyanna does have an impact on the war, and if L+R= a legitimate Jon, then on the survival of the Targaryen dynasty. Some have characterized guarding Lyanna as little more than babysitting the Prince’s mistress, but I disagree. As I’ve said before, it is a very dangerous assignment needing extremely trustworthy folks to carry it out. Why is is dangerous? Because Lyanna is the most wanted person in Westeros. Both Ned and Robert would likely drop all plans and rush, if possible, to her rescue if they knew her location. The Martells likely are not sympathizers with the woman who has humiliated Elia, at least in some eyes, and placed the threat of a rival to the succession, any legitimate son of Lyanna, into becoming a very real possibility. There is a very real reason why Aerys is worried about Dornish loyalties and won't let Elia and her children go to Dragonstone. Others, wavering Reach lords or the Lannisters, would love to have hold of her to bargain with the rebels. So, anyone who guards Lyanna must both be immune to corruption and bribery, but must be experienced bodyguards who will guard against enemies everywhere. I can’t think of three better candidates for this job than the Trio.

And that doesn't even deal with the dangers coming from Aerys towards Lyanna, but that's a topic for another post.

That doesn’t mean your idea that they may well have had other assignments as well couldn’t very well be true. For instance, a diplomatic mission to the Free Cities would carry a tremendous amount of weight if it was Hightower as the representative. Going to the Golden Company, either to enlist their aide, or to seek the return of Blackfyre would be extremely valuable to the Targaryen cause. Sending Dayne to pacify the Martel brothers makes some sense. And I’m sure many other scenarios can be thought of that make a lot of sense. But what we come down to in the end, I think, is that whatever other tasks these men are, or are not, given, some of their number, and likely all of their number at some point, are ordered to guard Lyanna by either Rhaegar or Aerys.

As for the rest of the discussion. My theory was that Dayne Higtower and Whent were sent on a mission of some kind involving the prohepcy, See the "far away" comment when they are asked what they were actually doing when the king died.

They simply are compelled to move to TOJ when its clear that Lyanna's child would be first in the succession order.

My main problem with this is that all of them would be sent away on missions and Lyanna, particularly a pregnant Lyanna, would be left with others for her protection. I see no evidence of that.

I was just wondering...

How do we know that the ToJ thing didn't happen before the battle on the Trident?

Many things make this extremely unlikely, if not just impossible. Here are a few of them:

  • If you believe Ned’s dream discussion with the Kingsguard remotely reflects reality, then the events of the Trident, King’s Landing, Storm’s End, and Rhaella and Viserys’s flight to Dragonstone obviously take place before the confrontation at the Tower of Joy. If nothing else, I think we can be certain that Ned’s questions reflect his trying to understand why these three were not in other places and he instead finds them there. It would be very peculiar for him to be wondering why these men where not at the Trident or King’s Landing if he already had killed them.

  • The location of the Tower (with the red mountains of Dorne at their back) make it extremely unlikely that Ned has run away from his responsibilities as a rebel general and led a small party through large swaths of loyalist held territory to get to the Tower. Not that he wouldn’t try if he knew where Lyanna was, but successfully doing so is pretty unbelievable. If we separate Lyanna from the Tower of Joy, and believe, Ned has led a small group of men through large swaths of territory only to kill these three men, I think we are in crackpot territory.

  • When Ned leaves King’s Landing to finish the final battles of the war, he and Robert leave each other on extremely bad terms - because of the deaths of Rhaegar’s children. We are told they only come back together because of their shared grief concerning Lyanna’s death. Obviously, Lyanna’s death takes place after Ned leaves King’s Landing.

  • When Ned leaves King’s Landing he does so with an army used to lift the siege of Storm’s End. When he shows up at the Tower he has a party of seven. Could he have left his army on the march to Storm’s End to go to Lyanna? Possible, but again we have to wonder why he questions the Kingsguard as to why they weren’t at Storm’s End, even in his dream, if those events didn’t already take place.

More later, and, again, great to see your posts Enguerrand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wrote up a general theory based on some information we got from the spoiler readings, but I don't want to include it here under spoiler tags since it may not be appropriate for this forum. What do you guys think? Regardless, I'm curious to hear the reactions to the theory in that forum since you guys are likely far more familiar with the issues and nuances.

Since the title of the reading is itself a potential spoiler, I'll wrap it up in tags here:

It's Davos 1

Also, a brief explanation on why I think it might be useful:

It draws from a lot of the FAQ post on this site and some other in depth summaries, while fitting in some additional information we get from the GRRM readings.

Thanks! And if the consensus is that I should eliminate this post or use even more spoiler tags, I'll edit it further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many things make this extremely unlikely, if not just impossible. Here are a few of them:

  • [*]If you believe Ned’s dream discussion with the Kingsguard remotely reflects reality, then the events of the Trident, King’s Landing, Storm’s End, and Rhaella and Viserys’s flight to Dragonstone obviously take place before the confrontation at the Tower of Joy. If nothing else, I think we can be certain that Ned’s questions reflect his trying to understand why these three were not in other places and he instead finds them there. It would be very peculiar for him to be wondering why these men where not at the Trident or King’s Landing if he already had killed them.

list]

Hehe, just went back and reread the flashback. D'uh!

It really sounds to me as though they were on some kind of quest whilst the whole rebellion was taking place - probably not even in Westeros. They don't sound like they think they made some wrong/questionable descision in their KG duties, just sad that fate put them in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Dorne is probably the only place they would have been able to safely land after crossing the narrow sea. The only reason (baring posthumous orders or completely some unknown quest) they would not be attempting to hook up with Viserys that I can think of would be if they were accompanying a heavily pregnant (with Rhaegar's child) Lyanna. As a kingsguard it would make more sense to protect her whilst she gave birth than leave her with uncertain allies or split up and risk enemy waters to try and recross the narrow sea and try to find Viserys - they could do that later.

Especially if they had been informed that Ned and Co were on their way from KL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wrote up a general theory based on some information we got from the spoiler readings, but I don't want to include it here under spoiler tags since it may not be appropriate for this forum. What do you guys think? Regardless, I'm curious to hear the reactions to the theory in that forum since you guys are likely far more familiar with the issues and nuances.

I've posted my response in the other thread.

my response

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nearly every boarder has their own favorite theory regarding the KG's presence at the Tower of Joy. I'm no exception.

I've always thought the 3 most trustworthy guards staying at the TOJ to protect their prince's pregnant wife/lover must only be part of the truth. I suspect there was something else at the TOJ which required protection and secrecy.

I doubt Rhaegar spend so much time away from King's Landing just to be with Lyanna. I wouldn't be surprised if he had been doing something else about the prophecy(ies) and the future battle to save the world. That "something else" could be trying to hatch dragon's eggs, no? He wouldn't be the first Targ to try to and that attempt would certainly not be the first to bring about death and destruction.

I don't have any proof to support my crackpot theory but to me it can explain why the KG chose to fight Ned (he wasn't likely to hurt Lyanna or her baby) and why the TOJ was taken apart (there's no way Ned would have left dragon eggs or any trace)

I already feel the flames...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have the right to ignore "huge field army, thousands of defenders in never-stormed fortress and unchallenged fleet to flee on" if you wish. It doesn't do much for your argument though.[...]There is still a KG to guard the King himself as well, and no time, or particular reason, for him to recall the KG he left in the south with the pregnant Lyana, carrying the child of prophecy (or so he believes).
You've the right to ignore that Rhaegar thought it was not enough, came back and could have taken with him the trained and experienced army commanders.

The fact that they are Ned's friends mean that, Howland Reed possibly apart, they are a relatively elite group.
No, it means they are Ned's friend, people he likes and trusts. You cannot dismiss Howland like that... So Ned brings him despite the fact Howland is bad at fighting, because he's his friend and Lyanna's, and supposedly, it should mean that Ned friends are good at fighting?

Not that they suck, mind you, they are trained nobles, but they outnumber the others two to one and don't need to be the cream of the fighters. However, given the size of the group, they surely need to be friend to Ned, or else he would have brought more. (I mean, how hard is it bringing a dozen bowmen, pikemen and light cavalry?)

And who said raiders don't exist? That is exactly what Ned's group is. A fast raid by a small group with a single objective.
Uh, yeah, a group that would not have been there had the loyalist won at the trident. And a group that they were unable to foil.

Didn't I prattle enough about the certainty of the threat to KL (that came to pass) versus the uncertainty of problems in Dorne + the uselessness of only three guys alone?

I'm not sure why the third quote needs to be reconciled, unless you think that having KG who can be trusted more than any other possible party to protect Rhaegar's family means that no one else at all can be trusted.
Well, that's your argument, that noone else can be trusted therefore the Kingsguard had to stay. Do you go back on it, or something?

Because there is no reason whatsoever for them to suspect the rebels are closing in.
What information they get seems awfully convenient for your argument. They seem to be able to be found and informed instantly (and given the truth (or maybe they are anive idiot believing rumours)) when it's about knowing a kid becomes king, but when it's about movements of the armies rather than specific deaths and flights, they can't know...

No. Dying trying to protect the King from rebels (the brother aspect is irrelevant) is fine. And they almost succeeded.
Let us momentarily put aside the whole dishonourable thing, fleeing with a baby king and leaving the kings mother to die alone, when it is not a life and death situation for the king - and in fact puts the kings life at greater risk than waiting (newborn, travelling, no mother)!
Define for me what "protect" mean for you precisely, please. Since apparently it's fine dying for things that are no life and death matters.

Also, it's awfully inconvenient how legality of marriage can change "It's dishonourable to leave a dying woman to immediately flee and go protect the king in exile, but I'll do it" into "It's dishonourable to leave a dying woman to immediately flee and go protect the king in exile, so I won't do it"

Let us look ahead 10-15 yrs to a youthful Targ royal in exile...

Targ: "So, let me get this straight, the war was lost but you were in no immediate danger and you fled, leaving my mother to die?"

KG: "Err, yes your majesty. We fled before danger was imminent. We let your mother die alone. She might have lived, she might even still be alive. ... It seemed like a good idea at the time..."

"Yes, I fled with you since one cannot flee when danger is there, and we would surely have all died, leaving you to the usurper's dogs mercy, if the opposition was strong enough to kill the two I left behind to guard your mother"
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the welcome back Danny :)

and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Saying that they would obey an order from the crown prince, is a far cry from saying that he ordered them to guard the TOJ and Lyanna/child.

Besides I dislike this reply from Martin since if its taken as an absolute, it's absurd. Would they kill the king if prince Rhaegar ordered them?

Would they obey a order they had good reason to believe would be harmful to the king's interests and would meet with his dissaproval?

I would think of course not, they would even be dutibound to disregard such commands.

This is shown when it is to Rhaegar that the young Jaime goes to plea to be allowed to go to the Trident. Rhaegar tells Jaime the reason he doesn’t allow Jaime to go is to pacify his Father’s paranoia regarding Tywin (is it “paranoia” when they ARE out to get you?) but it is Rhaegar who makes the decision.

Really? I think the scene shows exactly the opposite. Jaime stays in King's Landing because there is were the king wants him to be. Rhaegar disagrees but accept not to try changing Aerys mind to keep him calm. "I dare not take his crutch away from him" doesn't seem like he does what he pleases with the kingsguard.

Given all of this, and Martin’s unprompted volunteering of Rhaegar’s name in the quote above, Rhaegar is almost certainly the person responsible, with Aerys a very distant second. I think we can safely rule out Rhaella, Elia, or the children.

Given "all" of this I find your conclusion farfetched to say the least.

We know Hightower has command experience leading a small body of men to guard the King, but do we know he has commanded large bodies of troops in the field? Dayne was in command of doing away with the Kingswood Brotherhood, so he would fit your characterization, but I don’t know that other than being well known that Hightower and Whent do. It’s a honest question. Do you know of any references to Ser Gerold or Ser Oswell commanding troops?

No I don't, but Hightower is the commander of the Kingsguard, a very old distinguished one at that,a authority figure, someone people who desired to be loyal to the dynasty could turn to if things went wrong, like say if the prince died in battle among other things.

Why is it dangerous? Because Lyanna is the most wanted person in Westeros. Both Ned and Robert would likely drop all plans and rush, if possible, to her rescue if they knew her location. The Martells likely are not sympathizers with the woman who has humiliated Elia, at least in some eyes, and placed the threat of a rival to the succession, any legitimate son of Lyanna, into becoming a very real possibility. There is a very real reason why Aerys is worried about Dornish loyalties and won't let Elia and her children go to Dragonstone. Others, wavering Reach lords or the Lannisters, would love to have hold of her to bargain with the rebels. So, anyone who guards Lyanna must both be immune to corruption and bribery, but must be experienced bodyguards who will guard against enemies everywhere. I can’t think of three better candidates for this job than the Trio.

If Robert or Tywin or any random major lord know of her location and desired to go for it those 3 would be a very inadequate protection, You are assuming the Martell's know that Lyanna is having a child, and that this child somehow would be more threatening to Aegon then another bastard, a really flimsy reason to make a mortal enemy of the prince and likely his father. I fail to see why taking appropriate step safeguarding the person who is the justification for the war would make them rebel. I really don't understand this reasoning at all.

And that doesn't even deal with the dangers coming from Aerys towards Lyanna, but that's a topic for another post.

If the kingsguard lets the king abuse the Queen herself, I doubt they would go to any lengths protecting Lyanna from him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Enguerrand, let me approach this from a different route. Let's start with finding out what we agree on, ok?

  • I went to great lengths to try to establish the authority of the royal family members to give orders to the Kingsguard. I'm assuming from your response that you don't disagree that as a member of the royal family Rhaegar had the authority to command the Kingsguard - assuming there isn't a contradictory order from the king - to take up certain tasks and do certain things. Do we agree?

  • I too have problems with some absolutist interpretations of Martin's quote and have gone round and round about what it does and doesn't mean. I agree that the idea that the trio would just follow the last order of Rhaegar, regardless of circumstance - like the presence of a new unguarded king - or content of the order - like killing the king - would be absurd. What it does tell me is that the Kingsguard trio are there on orders from someone, and, because Martin volunteers Rhaegar's name plus the fact their location and Lyanna's presence all point to Rhaegar, it is most likely this order comes from the Crown Prince. Do you agree?

  • In case you don't agree with the last question, who do you think could have given the order that sends the Trio to the Tower of Joy? Your response to the last post seems to rule out Aerys as well, am I right in thinking so? Do you think another Royal - Elia or Rhaella for instance - could have been behind it? Perhaps the Hand of the King? If so which of Aerys's Hands are we talking about? Or do you think, contrary to Martin's response, in this case the Kingsguard did make up their own order?

  • I agree that at least some of the Trio would not do anything to protect Lyanna from Aerys, but I don't think that means Aerys is no threat to Lyanna. I don't think it is an accident that Rhaegar doesn't take Lyanna back to King's Landing with him. Aerys actions from Harrenhal through his torture and murder of Brandon and Rickard and his paranoia about the Dornish alliance all seem to give good reason for Rhaegar to hide Lyanna from his father. It also maybe the one of the reasons he chooses - for the sake of argument assume he chooses - the three men he does, especially Hightower, for the assignment in the south - is he keeps them away from his father's orders. Do you agree?

Ok, let's start there and see where we can get, ok? I have to go to work soon, but I'll look later on for your response. Thanks. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings,

This is my first post on this site and I'm so glad I found it. I gravitated to this thread

because the subject of Jon Snow's parents as been a subject of great intrest to me for

several years now. Am I correct in assuming that the "promise" Lyanna begged of Ned

was to raise Jon as his own? As I thought about it, I went back and re-read AGoT, specifically the

chapter near the beginning when Ned and Robert are riding across the north and

recalling old times. Robert expresses utter hatred towards all "dragonspawn" and demonstrates

no remorse at the memory of Rhaegar's murdered children. If this was true then

Lyanna would have known that Robert would have murdered Jon so she begged Ned

to save her son. To take him north, claim him as a bastard and thus save him from

Roberts rage.

I'm sorry if this is a re-hashed subject but as I said, I'm new to the board and haven't

read all the hundreds of posts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am I correct in assuming that the "promise" Lyanna begged of Ned

was to raise Jon as his own?

You're correct in assuming that this is a common interpretation by fans. If it's actually true, we don't know yet for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone ever made comment on Howland Reed during Lyanna's death? The major drama in that scene is certainly going to be Ned making his final promise to Lyanna and grieving as she dies but what interests me is that there is an exellent chance that Howland saw the whole thing. No doubt the "little crannogman" would have been in the background, saying nothing but seeing everything. This would make him the only person left in the realm to know the "truth" about Jon Snow.

My guess has always been that Howland Reed is going to play a vital role before this tale is finished. I also

have a suspicion that one of the three dragons will obey Jon in an upcoming book. That'll be quite a sight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone ever made comment on Howland Reed during Lyanna's death? The major drama in that scene is certainly going to be Ned making his final promise to Lyanna and grieving as she dies but what interests me is that there is an exellent chance that Howland saw the whole thing. No doubt the "little crannogman" would have been in the background, saying nothing but seeing everything. This would make him the only person left in the realm to know the "truth" about Jon Snow.

My guess has always been that Howland Reed is going to play a vital role before this tale is finished. I also

have a suspicion that one of the three dragons will obey Jon in an upcoming book. That'll be quite a sight.

Yes, Reed's shadow does loom large over Jon's tale, just as you have suggested. Even it it turns out R+L=/=J, Howland would still know the truth of Jon's mother's identity, most likely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, Reed's shadow does loom large over Jon's tale, just as you have suggested. Even it it turns out R+L=/=J, Howland would still know the truth of Jon's mother's identity, most likely.

I'm of the sneaking suspicion that Martin will kill Reed before he can make the big reveal, since it would be so devastating to the fans as we've built Reed expectations up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...