What if... Robert had married Lyanna

[Lady Blackfish]

No, Robert wasn't Rhaegar--who was handsome, soulful, mighty, and brilliant. But Robert was close enough. No, he didn't play the harp, or joust at tourney or compose beautiful songs or have violet eyes and long silver hair. But no man in the realm could have faced Robert when he wielded his warhammer, and while everyone loved Rhaegar, I doubt that the Prince of Dragonstone could have made them laugh as heartily as Robert Baratheon, or be as filled with cheer by his jokes or have loved him like Robert's enemies turned allies did.

And yet, Lyanna didn't love him, which is all that really matters. Even if someone seems like they ought to be loved by all, if it's not there it's not there. Personal prerogative (which, incidentally, happens to be the core theme in Lyanna's little story: choice).

Lyanna was the love of the two Greatest men of her generation. Methinks that we ought to count her lucky, at least in that regards.

Lucky, as in, she somehow derives worth through male attention? She didn't want Robert, I would count him as an encumbrance rather than flattery (and quite hope that Lyanna did too, if we are supposed to regard her as a perfect ethereal dream girl type).

[Spastic Plastic]

I really don't know. Maybe Lyanna would have run away from him, maybe she would try to make the best of it instead of constantly galling him like Cersei did.

I lean towards the former, since Ned says Lyanna was similar to Arya and to his brother Brandon. Both of them have a very nasty temper.

I can't really judge, because the young Robert Baratheon was not the pathetic wreck we all know and love. I doubt Lyanna gave a shit if Robert was, as you say, a Great Man (in bolded letters!) or not - most Westerosi people agree that Tywin Lannister was the Great Man of the century, and he was a sociopath by our standards.

[Yakman]

And yet, Lyanna didn't love him, which is all that really matters. Even if someone seems like they ought to be loved by all, if it's not there it's not there. Personal prerogative (which, incidentally, happens to be the core theme in Lyanna's little story: choice).

Lucky, as in, she somehow derives worth through male attention? She didn't want Robert, I would count him as an encumbrance rather than flattery (and quite hope that Lyanna did too, if we are supposed to regard her as a perfect ethereal dream girl type).

We don't know anything about Lyanna's side of the story or have any sense of a timeline of the critical events.

Did she run off with Rhaegar willingly? did she get stolen away by him as Robert says? we don't know with any certainty.

We don't know if she met Robert once when they were promised to one another (and we don't have a timeline for this either... did it happen when they were children?) or did she know him on a personal level?

My point is that Robert was not only a good man in his youth, but that he was an exceptional man, brilliant and valorous and charismatic. He was almost everything that Rhaegar was--and more in some regards. Not as learned, nor as filled with purpose perhaps, but Robert had other qualities in spades. Moreover, Lyanna was only what, 17?, at Harrenhal. Remember how Sansa acts with Ser Loras at the Tourney of the Hand. She's swept away by his handsomeness and gallantry and knows nothing about his personal... how shall we say... issues? Had Loras asked Sansa to run away with him, she would have said yes in a heartbeat and damn the consequences. Perhaps L+R was the same?

Robert was a Great Man in his youth, as was Rhaegar. We shouldn't be so quick to judge him by the sad sack that he is as a King sixteen years later, after Cersei and tubs of wine had had their way with him. And we shouldn't be so quick to say that Lyanna wouldn't have loved him if they had wed. I say again, Lyanna had the Wolf and Robert had the Fury. Eddard loved him as a brother after all his faults, and it is possible that their marriage would have been happy and fruitful.

[Yakman]

I can't really judge, because the young Robert Baratheon was not the pathetic wreck we all know and love. I doubt Lyanna gave a shit if Robert was, as you say, a Great Man (in bolded letters!) or not - most Westerosi people agree that Tywin Lannister was the Great Man of the century, and he was a sociopath by our standards.

They only say that about Tywin once he is dead.

Robert was the one who overthrew the Targaryen dynasty, something that even the mighty Blackfyres couldn't achieve.

[Spastic Plastic]

Yet the peasants Arya meets yearn after the good old Targaryen days.

[Yakman]

Yet the peasants Arya meets yearn after the good old Targaryen days.

There was peace--at least for part of the time. It is in the Baratheon days (the present) that there is war.

Rose-colored glasses work wonders.

[Liadin]

My point is that Robert was not only a good man in his youth, but that he was an exceptional man, brilliant and valorous and charismatic. He was almost everything that Rhaegar was--and more in some regards. Not as learned, nor as filled with purpose perhaps, but Robert had other qualities in spades. Moreover, Lyanna was only what, 17?, at Harrenhal. Remember how Sansa acts with Ser Loras at the Tourney of the Hand. She's swept away by his handsomeness and gallantry and knows nothing about his personal... how shall we say... issues? Had Loras asked Sansa to run away with him, she would have said yes in a heartbeat and damn the consequences. Perhaps L+R was the same?

What point are you trying to make here? It seems like you're trying to argue that since (in your view) Robert objectively had as many good qualities as Rhaegar, Lyanna should have been equally willing to fall in love with either one of them. That just seems ridiculous--do you really think people deliberately decide whom to fall in love with by making Venn diagrams and lists of pros and cons?

Or are you arguing that we just don't know how Lyanna felt? That's very true. It's possible that she was amenable to marrying Robert, but was kidnapped by Rhaegar. Doesn't seem likely, but possible. Not sure what your Sansa example proves though: the fact that one 12-year-old girl was enamored of a young stranger doesn't prove that a very different 16-year-old girl would have carelessly run off with a different stranger without considering the consequences or having a plan for the future. Maybe Lyanna was swept off her feet and maybe she did make the decision rashly, but we don't know.

One of the most ironic things about all of this is that Lyanna's only voiced objection to Robert was that he was a cheater. What did she think Rhaegar was doing with her, exactly? I wouldn't call it "keeping to one bed."

[Lady Blackfish]

We don't know anything about Lyanna's side of the story or have any sense of a timeline of the critical events.

I think we do:

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some young girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature."

It is not 100% conclusive but it's suggested as strongly as GRRM's dreamy impressionistic style allows that she isn't thrilled about the prospect. Further, there's Ned's line that Robert really didn't know the girl he thought would have made him happy. Nothing is conclusive in these statements, but from a narrative standpoint it'd be pretty cheap set-up if what we found contradicted the implications there.

Did she run off with Rhaegar willingly? did she get stolen away by him as Robert says? we don't know with any certainty.

True, but even if Rhaegar had to kidnap her, it doesn't necessarily follow that she loved Robert.

We don't know if she met Robert once when they were promised to one another (and we don't have a timeline for this either... did it happen when they were children?) or did she know him on a personal level?

Well the above quote indicates that they were affianced around the same time that Mya Stone was born, but many questions remain about their level of acquaintance, for sure.

My point is that Robert was not only a good man in his youth, but that he was an exceptional man, brilliant and valorous and charismatic. He was almost everything that Rhaegar was--and more in some regards.

Be that as it may, young Robert does not have to be the awful man he later became in order for Lyanna to simply not love him. And if I read my tropes right, the core of Lyanna's story (which connects with snippets of other women's lives throughout the series) is about choice. So what if he was awesome? Lyanna, who is practically focus-grouped to appeal to modern female readers, seems to speak to some idea of feminine discontent about limitations, and those limitations exist and are still unfair even when a particular guy is feasibly attractive to some theoretical woman X (it just doesn't have to be her in particular who feels the attraction).

Which is to say, maybe some young woman could have been initially apprehensive about marrying Robert at first, because she knew that he slept around, and later could have found herself happy after marrying him anyway. But I don't think that's where GRRM is going with the uber romantic, uber tragic Lyanna.

One of the most ironic things about all of this is that Lyanna's only voiced objection to Robert was that he was a cheater. What did she think Rhaegar was doing with her, exactly? I wouldn't call it "keeping to one bed."

Indeed, though for a 14/15 year old girl, it may well have been different rules when her own attraction was involved. Perhaps Rhaegar made assurances that Elia's Dornish views of sexuality and Targaryen polygamy covered any potential for discontent. All we have of Lyanna is this tragic aura that targets a vague though vivid sense of feminine discontent, we really don't know how cognizant she was of various political and social particulars.

[Datepalm]

Robert was a Great Man in his youth, as was Rhaegar. We shouldn't be so quick to judge him by the sad sack that he is as a King sixteen years later, after Cersei and tubs of wine had had their way with him.

The question isn't whether he might have had a nice summer fling with Lyanna, its exactly the one of years and years of marriage with all its ups and downs. The "great man" theory of storytelling has little appeal to me, to be honest, and I don't think that its GRRM preferred method either - that is, he does set up these larger than life characters, but he also goes out of his way to humanize them and bring them down into the dirt. Robert was not a great man in any possibly sense of the word, not in this story.

do you really think people deliberately decide whom to fall in love with by making Venn diagrams and lists of pros and cons?

Startling new infromation. I may have been going about this all wrong. :leaving:

Given the situation, Lyanna (or her father) really would be making lists and considering options based on everything but love - I think part of Lyannas whole image is that she rebels against that though, and runs off (presumably) with the guy she really loves, in blatant disregard for all the rules.

[Lady Blackfish]

and I don't think that its GRRM preferred method either -

Well, I do think GRRM is fond of viewing history as the actions of influential individuals, but that is not to say that he views all those influential individuals as heroes, especially in the conventional genre sense that the traits that make them influential also make them deserving of all possible plot points (such as The Girl).

I think part of Lyannas whole image is that she rebels against that though, and runs off (presumably) with the guy she really loves, in blatant disregard for all the rules.

Thus cementing her symbolic status as the tragic face of feminine discontent!

[Datepalm]

Well, I do think GRRM is fond of viewing history as the actions of influential individuals, but that is not to say that he views all those influential individuals as heroes, especially in the conventional genre sense that the traits that make them influential also make them deserving of all possible plot points (such as The Girl).

True, hes certainly never going to write about how history hinged on who had better deepwater ports or more accessible coal deposits. ("A Strike of Miners") but he does subvert his great influential characters - his Ceasars and Napoleons don't change history becuase they are Great Men with Vision and A Plan, but rather becuase dad never loved them enough or they're trying to impress their girlfriend and so on. People do change history in ASOIAF, but its in the course of living their extremely flawed lives, and it clear that under different circumstances history would have shifted just as much if it had been someone else there.

Thus cementing her symbolic status as the tragic face of feminine discontent!

If only she had some interesting men to work with. Can you imagine if the guy Lyanna ran off with at Harrenhal has been Jaime?

[SingleMort]

I'm pretty sure Robert loved Lyanna judging from what he and Cersei say on the matter. And I think a marriage between them whilst certainly not that happy (at least on her part) would have perhaps made Robert a better man. I think Lyanna would have been able to stand up to him and reign him in a lot better than Cersei because he would have loved and respected Lyanna. Whether he'd have been able to stay faithful is another matter.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before and perhaps it is just me but does anyone else see several similarities between Lyanna and Helen of Troy?

[Spastic Plastic]

Oh, definitely. It's a twist on the classic story of a man going to war with the man who carried away the woman he loved.

Lyanna is obviously Helen of Troy, Rhaegar is Paris, and Robert is Menelaus. Arthur Dayne is Hector, Aerys is Priam, and maybe GREGOR is Achilles...

Okay, I don't know where I'm going.

[SingleMort]

...maybe GREGOR is Achilles...

Riiiight. If you say so. I picture him more like the minotaur, but that's a different story.

[Lady Blackfish]

but he does subvert his great influential characters - his Ceasars and Napoleons don't change history becuase they are Great Men with Vision and A Plan, but rather becuase dad never loved them enough or they're trying to impress their girlfriend and so on. People do change history in ASOIAF, but its in the course of living their extremely flawed lives, and it clear that under different circumstances history would have shifted just as much if it had been someone else there.

Well said, well said.

If only she had some interesting men to work with. Can you imagine if the guy Lyanna ran off with at Harrenhal has been Jaime?

On the plus side for her, Jaime does believe in monogamy. On the minus side for her, she doesn't resemble his reflection.

I think Lyanna would have been able to stand up to him and reign him in a lot better than Cersei because he would have loved and respected Lyanna.

If she wanted to. Man, I'd hate to be in a marriage where I'd have to be some guy's mommy as well as his wife.

Lyanna is obviously Helen of Troy, Rhaegar is Paris, and Robert is Menelaus. Arthur Dayne is Hector, Aerys is Priam, and maybe GREGOR is Achilles...

I think Robert is an amalgam of Menelaus (who was never that badass IIRC) and Achilles.

[Dhampire]

I think we're leaving something out. Lyanna wasn't as Sansa, all full of romantic crap. She was quite realistic; remember the tale Meera tells Bran, about how Lyanna helped Howland Reed and could tell good and evil; and how she saw what kind of man Robert was and didn't deceive herself telling "I will change him". I think she was willing to marry Robert because that was what she had to do, and she intended to do her best, but... Rhaegar happened, she fell in love and followed her feelings to her death. So if Rhaegar hadn' happened, Robert would have been Lyanna's life; he loved her, so he would have been more prone to make her happy; and Lyanna was a tomboy in some aspects, a thing which I think Robert liked.

[Lady Blackfish]

Lyanna does seem to me to have a romantic streak, though it is perhaps difficult to distinguish if she is romantic or romanticized. I don't think she would've been interested in changing Robert, but running off with a guy who made you cry at a party and then gave you flowers, just like that? I know we don't know how much communication Rhaegar and Lyanna might have had in that year after the tournament at Harrenhal, but as it stands now it doesn't seem like it took much to get her going (which may speak more to how desperate she was to avoid Robert, rather than how desperate she was to be with Rhaegar ... or it could not, or it could be both).

Personally I think Lyanna's alluringly wild spirit appealed to Robert out of some vague sense of conquest. I get a very sylvan hunter/prey vibe from those two.

[Datepalm]

I think we're leaving something out. Lyanna wasn't as Sansa, all full of romantic crap. She was quite realistic; remember the tale Meera tells Bran, about how Lyanna helped Howland Reed and could tell good and evil;

Thats....not realistic. Shes idealistic and determined and critical, which are all certainly admirable characteristics, but none of them are conductive to settling for less or making do with what you have when it comes to your personal life. It seems like Lyanna, in running off with Rhaegar (If run off she did, I am as yet not etirely convinced.) did it as much for the adventure and the excitement as she did because she was - or thought she was - in love.

And I don't know that Robert really admired the wild tomboy Lyanna we know - Ned says "you didn't know her as I did," and all those recollections are from Ned, not Robert - all Robert thinks about is how pretty she was and how she should have been buried on a pretty hill - its Ned that cares that she was a Stark, (and not just Idealized Girlfriend of Lost Youth of Awesomeness) and that there are things that go with that, quite outside her relashionship with Robert. (my personal theory is that Rob was so infatuated percisely because she was Neds sister, but thats a digression.)

[Lady Blackfish]

And I don't know that Robert really admired the wild tomboy Lyanna we know - Ned says "you didn't know her as I did," and all those recollections are from Ned, not Robert - all Robert thinks about is how pretty she was and how she should have been buried on a pretty hill - its Ned that cares that she was a Stark, (and not just Idealized Girlfriend of Lost Youth of Awesomeness) and that there are things that go with that, quite outside her relashionship with Robert. (my personal theory is that Rob was so infatuated percisely because she was Neds sister, but thats a digression.)

You know, I think you're right. Lyanna's tomboyishness and wildness is supposed to stand out as something that Robert did not see, and that Disneyfied romanticization surrounding those traits of hers that we talked about before are more a happenstance of the modern state of tropes, not something GRRM intentionally invokes. But it still makes her a little irritating for me as a figure, because I know that GRRM is trope savvy and it feels like an unimaginative choice, though of course he can't help how fatigued I am on various tropes, and conventional tropes do have amassed narrative power. /slightly off-topic

[Datepalm]

You know, I think you're right. Lyanna's tomboyishness and wildness is supposed to stand out as something that Robert did not see, and that Disneyfied romanticization surrounding those traits of hers that we talked about before are more a happenstance of the modern state of tropes, not something GRRM intentionally invokes.

I dunno. I think her rebelliousness and tomboyishness are definitely deliberately invoked by GRRM. They're not what endear her to Robert, (or even Rhaegar, who may well have wanted her for a prophecized womb) but thats part of it - she's the princess locked into a loveless marriage with someone who dosen't understand her. My Disney-foo is weak, but I think maybe Jasmine had that plot? Where they kept trying to marry her off to guys who only saw her as a pretty face? Its not that they weren't crazy about her, it just wasn't for her real self, which the narrow bounds of society never allowed her to express...etc, etc....<_<

ETA - ahem, distracted by listening to the Aladdin soundtrack for a bit, but here it is, starting 2:25 (after Aladdin is emo and yet class warry for a bit.)