What if... Robert had married Lyanna

[Lady Blackfish]

I dunno. I think her rebelliousness and tomboyishness are definitely deliberately invoked by GRRM.

Yeah I worded that poorly. What I mean is that he means for her tomboyishness/wildness/etc to be unaligned with the attention she gets from Robert, thus it's easy for Robert to be interpreted as an unsympathetic w.r.t. the issue of her freedom of choice, without her tomboyishness/wildness/etc being seen as unsympathetic in the process. However, it's arguably suggested that it is something that appeals to Rhaegar, if you buy that she was the knight of the laughing tree and her exploits as such are what made Rhaegar notice her in the first place. Which is why I'm attracted to the idea of Rhaegar basically wanting her for her womb -- it's less nice to Lyanna, but that makes it more tragic, and truly tragic instead of wanky emo tragic. Because it's already clear to me that I'm supposed to find Lyanna tragic, all that remains is how trite her tragedy is or isn't.

[Datepalm]

that appeals to Rhaegar, if you buy that she was the knight of the laughing tree and her exploits as such are what made Rhaegar notice her in the first place. Which is why I'm attracted to the idea of Rhaegar basically wanting her for her womb -- it's less nice to Lyanna, but that makes it more tragic, and truly tragic instead of wanky emo tragic. Because it's already clear to me that I'm supposed to find Lyanna tragic, all that remains is how trite her tragedy is or isn't.

Oh, agreed. We do have the prophecy hanging over the whole thing though, so no matter what its sure to be an aspect. Theres just no way to read Rhaegar/Lyanna as a pure love story unaffected by any surroounding political/prophetic circumstances.

(Oh, and poor tomboy Mulan is in the same position (5:57) - and they even sing "When we're through, boys will gladly go to war for you" when giving her the makeover. :shocked:)

[Lady Blackfish]

Oh, agreed. We do have the prophecy hanging over the whole thing though, so no matter what its sure to be an aspect.

It is so much more sinister if Rhaegar is more utilitarian though.

(Oh, and poor tomboy Mulan is in the same position (5:57) - and they even sing "When we're through, boys will gladly go to war for you" when giving her the makeover. :shocked:)

Yeah but! In that one, the whole point is that this doesn't appeal to Mulan, and neither does she find her place by being beautifully rebellious in the face of all rules (she goes to war to fulfill her family's duty - duty!). And while there is romance in the movie it's an afterthought to the climax and resolution of the plot; the love interest serves as auxiliary validation at best. By Disney standards that movie actually gets a pass from me, at least on this note.

[Datepalm]

It is so much more sinister if Rhaegar is more utilitarian though.

I think he is too, becuase he can't be a convincing romantic hero as far as i'm concerned while hes being rude and callous to Elia. So either he's a two timing asshat, or hes a coldly pragmatic manipulator. Either works for me, but in no case can he be worthy of Lyanna. (unless Elia was completely in on it and he has her permission and so forth, but thats pretty cold too.)

Yeah but! In that one, the whole point is that this doesn't appeal to Mulan, and neither does she find her place by being beautifully rebellious in the face of all rules (she goes to war to fulfill her family's duty - duty!).

Oh, definitely - but thats why I tend to think Lyanna too was running off not because shes in love with Rhaegar, but more to get away from Robert and that whole domestic vision he's got planned for her - she'll be the strong woman who'll dedicate her life to keeping him from becoming a pathetic slob while nevertheless never loving him and still being cheated on! What fun! Rhaegar offered rebelliousness and adventure and prophecy (oh, and, he's totally hot. Bonus!)

Not necessarily that Lyanna was thinking that way conciously, and more importantly, I don't think the story at this point has done anything to downplay the romance aspect of it (to the contrary!) but I just can't buy the googly eyed romance there, so I have to look for alternative explanations.

At the risk of too much disney, I think Rhaegar/Lyanna is Beauty and the Beast, only its not clear at all whether the Beast ever actually turned into a Prince. (

)

[Lady Blackfish]

I think Rhaegar/Lyanna is Beauty and the Beast

Well it's GRRM, so ... isn't everything BatB?

What I am waiting to see is how one-sided the romantic aspect is. I do think we are supposed to think that Lyanna wanted to get away from Robert, and even if not, then at best it'll be ambiguous, because I don't see GRRM as even defining what "real love" is in the first place. So we could potentially always debate if Lyanna is running to Rhaegar or running from Robert, and it may be one of those discussions that reveal more about us than the characters.

[Datepalm]

Well it's GRRM, so ... isn't everything BatB?

What I am waiting to see is how one-sided the romantic aspect is. I do think we are supposed to think that Lyanna wanted to get away from Robert, and even if not, then at best it'll be ambiguous, because I don't see GRRM as even defining what "real love" is in the first place. So we could potentially always debate if Lyanna is running to Rhaegar or running from Robert, and it may be one of those discussions that reveal more about us than the characters.

It goes back to the whole atmosphere and imagery of Rhaegar/Lyanna though. On the one hand, that atmosphere seems to somewhat be GRRMs default when writing tragic love stories, but on the other, he writes much more complex and nuanced characters when he's doing messy, complicated, uneven love affairs, like Jaime/Cercei or Jorah/Lynesse.

I guess for the most part its that R/L are, well, dead, so naturally everyone remembers them through a floaty haze of nostalgia. But that haziness dosen't really serve any of the living characters (unlike say Neds recollections of young Robert serving Roberts characterizations or the Rashomon of Aerys death wrt Jaime.) so I do think theres more information that needs to come out there.

ETA - totally unrelated, we give Disney unfair flack sometimes, I think. Sure, their gender politics are usually dreadful, but they have their moments of plumbing the depths. Frollo (in the Hunchback of Notredame) turning lust into self-disgust and self pity through a religeous prism in song? with latin? Win! (I can't believe that was a kids film, really.)

[Dryvus]

So you're basing the 'Lyanna didn't love Robert' argument over that one paragraph about how she knows he likes to sleep around? Incredibly flimsy.

[Lady Blackfish]

And there's, uhh, what in the other direction, exactly?

[Lummel]

It goes back to the whole atmosphere and imagery of Rhaegar/Lyanna though. On the one hand, that atmosphere seems to somewhat be GRRMs default when writing tragic love stories, but on the other, he writes much more complex and nuanced characters when he's doing messy, complicated, uneven love affairs, like Jaime/Cercei or Jorah/Lynesse.

Oh Datepalm, please don't be sad, at this stage we know so little about Rhaegar and Lyanna we can believe almost anything about their relationship, it can be as conflicted as you can imagine it.

Hmm, if Robert had married Lyanna I wonder how long it would have been before hot blooded Brandon Stark was at Robert's throat for his infidelities.

[Yakman]

Lots of stuff

My point is that it is my suspicion that a Lyanna-Robert marriage may well have been happy. Which was the point of the thread.

We have no way of knowing this. We see Robert only after Cersei, gluttony, and sloth have broken him, and Lyanna through fleeting flashbacks.

BUT we don't know how Robert would have turned out as the Lord of Storm's End, married to the Lady Stark. We DO KNOW that he was devoted to her enough to beg off marriage when he became King (despite being presented with Cersei Lannister) out of mourning for Lyanna, and that Ned thought that he was a good man.

We know that Lyanna was a fierce soul, brave and independent. We know that Robert was of a similar nature.

Yes, Lyanna ran off/was stolen away by Rhaegar. Yes, she does voice some concern over Robert's dalliances in the Vale. But... does this mean that Rob+Lya would have been an unhappy match--say if Rhaegar got himself unhorsed in the Tourney or was too busy staging a coup against his father to go to Harrenhal? I don't think this is necessarily the case.

[Maia]

We see Robert only after Cersei, gluttony, and sloth have broken him

Perhaps, but we also know that Robert was bedding legions of girls (and fathered at least 2 bastards) and generally feeling very happy during the War of the Usurper, when he supposedly thought that Lyanna was suffering terribly. This doesn't speak well of him or of his feelings for Lyanna.

And also, there is a huge difference between sharing a guy you love with _one_ other woman or the guy you don't with a regiment of them and possibly getting STDs as a result. Lyanna didn't need to be a hypocrite to prefer Rhaegar over Robert, IMHO.

Finally, I just don't see Lyanna settling into domesticity with Robert with a good grace. In some ways, she wasn't that dissimilar from Cersei - she chafed at her role in society and wanted to engage in male pursuits. She was also hot-tempered and didn't suffer insults (which Robert's cheating definitely would have been) gladly. I just don't see any rosy perspectives there.

[Spastic Plastic]

Robert and Lyanna would almost certainly be an unhappy match, Yakman. Whatever you say, there's absolutely nothing that indicates Lyanna would happily accept marriage to him. They were both willful and hot-tempered.

Robert deserved Cersei. In fact, they really deserved each other.

[3idcrow]

My point is that it is my suspicion that a Lyanna-Robert marriage may well have been happy. Which was the point of the thread.

I think it is definitely a possibility.

I also suspect that our assessment of the effect of Robert's infidelity on the quality of their marriage has a clear 21-century signature. I mean, c’mon, kings did it. Take English medieval kings as an example, nearly each of them had mistresses and bastards. And I only mean acknowledged bastards, whose names survived the centuries.

The one who comes to mind is Edward IV. I think our Robert has a lot of common with him: big and handsome man, great fighter in his times, extraordinary military commander never defeated in battle and also a famous Casanova. He literally had scores of bastards, both before and after his marriage. Yet his marriage was not unhappy one and he definitely married for love.

(Honestly, there are too many commonalities between these two, I should probably start a new thread.)

What I’m trying to say that such things were socially acceptable, not praised, but acceptable. Even Lyanna’s remark on Robert’s inability to stick to one bed has an air of acceptance, IMO. Regret, but acceptance. She said it sort of casually, without any high drama, and most definitely without suggesting that such a quality of her fiancée was important enough to break the marriage agreement. She knew Robert to be what he was, yet she was going to marry him anyway and accept his flows.

And then Rheagar came into her life…

[Yakman]

Perhaps, but we also know that Robert was bedding legions of girls (and fathered at least 2 bastards) and generally feeling very happy during the War of the Usurper, when he supposedly thought that Lyanna was suffering terribly. This doesn't speak well of him or of his feelings for Lyanna.

And also, there is a huge difference between sharing a guy you love with _one_ other woman or the guy you don't with a regiment of them and possibly getting STDs as a result. Lyanna didn't need to be a hypocrite to prefer Rhaegar over Robert, IMHO.

Finally, I just don't see Lyanna settling into domesticity with Robert with a good grace. In some ways, she wasn't that dissimilar from Cersei - she chafed at her role in society and wanted to engage in male pursuits. She was also hot-tempered and didn't suffer insults (which Robert's cheating definitely would have been) gladly. I just don't see any rosy perspectives there.

STDs? AND (as is commonly assumed, but not proven) SHE RAN OFF WITH A MARRIED MAN!!!

[undertow]

And I don't know that Robert really admired the wild tomboy Lyanna we know - Ned says "you didn't know her as I did," and all those recollections are from Ned, not Robert - all Robert thinks about is how pretty she was and how she should have been buried on a pretty hill - its Ned that cares that she was a Stark, (and not just Idealized Girlfriend of Lost Youth of Awesomeness) and that there are things that go with that, quite outside her relashionship with Robert. (my personal theory is that Rob was so infatuated percisely because she was Neds sister, but thats a digression.)

If he didn't admire her for her wildness, why admire her at all? Take away her wild tomboy streak, she's just another hot chick among many and has no discernible traits. I always figured that he loved her because he recognized another wild child.

[Lady Blackfish]

Admiring her wildness is different than realistically living with it, IMO. The alluring wildness of Lyanna is rather romanticized. In domestic reality it could translate to far different things than what Robert would anticipate.

But in any case, Ned's words did seem to indicate that he only saw her beauty and not the stronger elements of her personality underneath.

[Yakman]

Robert and Lyanna would almost certainly be an unhappy match, Yakman. Whatever you say, there's absolutely nothing that indicates Lyanna would happily accept marriage to him. They were both willful and hot-tempered.

Robert deserved Cersei. In fact, they really deserved each other.

Both willfull and hot-tempered? plenty of marriages of that sort work out. there are fights, certainly, but they can work out.

robert did NOT deserve Cersei. he was a much better man than that... the only men who deserve Cersei are fiends like Theon.

[Alexia]

Actually, Robert did deserve Cersei and no other woman in this story deserves Robert. For crying out loud, he was such a good man he took a girl up to his brother's wedding bed and screwed her during the wedding party. When he thought Lyanna was kidnapped and being raped, he was having an orgy with all the whores in the Peach. He treated Cersei just as nastily as she treated him, beating her in public and humiliating her and his children at Winterfell when he demanded that everyone wait for him while he went to moon over the body of his dead love.

[Jaime L]

Admiring her wildness is different than realistically living with it, IMO. The alluring wildness of Lyanna is rather romanticized. In domestic reality it could translate to far different things than what Robert would anticipate.

But in any case, Ned's words did seem to indicate that he only saw her beauty and not the stronger elements of her personality underneath.

Well, we don't know that for sure.

Robert slept with many women but only obsessed over Lyanna. Really feel like there had to have been something there beyond simple beauty for him to romanticize her so. After all he ended up with another of the realm's most beautiful women and felt little if any affection to her. I think when we're talking love (and it's clear he did love Lyanna), it's never a question of beauty alone. It's the sum of a set of qualities. Even for a horndog like Robert. Lyanna believed Robert would never change and perhaps she's right. I think it was almost guaranteed to be a tempestuous marriage but that's different from a failed one. I think there's a tendency to say "Robert is what he is", but part of me wonders if: "Robert is what he is....because Lyanna died." I think she was the one person who could've inspired him to be a better man. Not that he would completely stop sleeping around or no longer lose his temper at the drop of the hat. I don't think she's a miracle worker. But he might actually stop and consider who he's hurting every and now then.

Kinda like how Tywin ruled the Kingdom but Joanna ruled him and how it's explicitly stated how different of a man he was back before Tyrion was born. Descriptions of him laughing, can you imagine?! Think there's little question her death fundamentally changed Tywin...so why not Robert? Where Tywin became colder and perhaps harder, I think it's clear Robert just stop caring: about himself, the people around him, the kingdom as a whole. I don't think Lyanna living could've changed the sum of the man, but could've been a positive influence to help soften his worst tendencies. Robert's not a strong man. He gives in to his base instincts, he needs instant gratification, he can't not be loved. I think the presence of Lyanna, a woman more mature than he ever would've become, could've done a lot of good for the evolution of the man and king. We know the things Jaime would do for love...what about Robert?

Actually, Robert did deserve Cersei and no other woman in this story deserves Robert. For crying out loud, he was such a good man he took a girl up to his brother's wedding bed and screwed her during the wedding party. When he thought Lyanna was kidnapped and being raped, he was having an orgy with all the whores in the Peach. He treated Cersei just as nastily as she treated him, beating her in public and humiliating her and his children at Winterfell when he demanded that everyone wait for him while he went to moon over the body of his dead love.

You've said all this and more before, but i'm rereading the Cersei POV chapters now and honestly I don't know how you can sympathize with the woman. She is without redeeming quality. Her disdain for everyone around her marks her unique in this series.

[Dougsmum]

So you're basing the 'Lyanna didn't love Robert' argument over that one paragraph about how she knows he likes to sleep around? Incredibly flimsy.

There are plenty of women who DO make lists of pros and cons when deciding on a husband. It depends on what you are looking for, but if you want true love you then discard any suitors that have a wandering eye. Robert's cheating ways could be tolerated by the gold-digger type, but cheating was Lyanna's first and foremost concern. Perhaps she was strong-willed enough to not allow herself to get attached to him in the first place.