What if... Robert had married Lyanna

[Alexia]

You've said all this and more before, but i'm rereading the Cersei POV chapters now and honestly I don't know how you can sympathize with the woman. She is without redeeming quality. Her disdain for everyone around her marks her unique in this series.

I lost most of my (previously substantial) sympathy for Cersei once she gained a POV but I don't need to sympathize with Cersei to NOT sympathize with Robert. They are both asses and terrible spouses.

She does have some redeeming qualities though. That would be her love for her children...a redeeming quality our Robert lacks. ;)

[undertow]

I lost most of my (previously substantial) sympathy for Cersei once she gained a POV but I don't need to sympathize with Cersei to NOT sympathize with Robert. They are both asses and terrible spouses.

She does have some redeeming qualities though. That would be her love for her children...a redeeming quality our Robert lacks. ;)

In hindsight, I'd say Robert looks more in the right about their children than Cersei

[Yakman]

Actually, Robert did deserve Cersei and no other woman in this story deserves Robert. For crying out loud, he was such a good man he took a girl up to his brother's wedding bed and screwed her during the wedding party. When he thought Lyanna was kidnapped and being raped, he was having an orgy with all the whores in the Peach. He treated Cersei just as nastily as she treated him, beating her in public and humiliating her and his children at Winterfell when he demanded that everyone wait for him while he went to moon over the body of his dead love.

I think you are going a bit overboard on Robert here.

A) this is Westeros. There are very different attitudes towards fidelity, particularly amongst the nobility.

B) demanding that Robert stay "faithful" to Lyanna when they aren't married is not only a bit unrealistic, but is more than a tad demanding, particularly when he's fighting a war from the frontlines. In the few hours where he's not risking his life from a Mad King's assassins and a thousand swords aching for his blood, letting him drink and whore... well, that's more than understandable.

C) Robert was TRASHED when he took that Florent girl to Stannis' bed. he had no idea whose bed he was getting into. And Cersei had already had 10 years to wear him into a nub.

d) Cersei was the arch-bitch to end all arch-bitches. she dared question him in a matter that was far, far, far, beyond her purview, and she'd gone out of her way to humiliate him in front of his court. there's no telling how many times she'd done that before we see Robert react... which may well have been the first time he'd done so.

[Alexia]

In hindsight, I'd say Robert looks more in the right about their children than Cersei

What's wrong with Myrcella and Tommen? And perhaps with some love and proper discipline, Joffrey would have turned out better. He clearly idolized Robert.

[Alexia]

B) demanding that Robert stay "faithful" to Lyanna when they aren't married is not only a bit unrealistic, but is more than a tad demanding, particularly when he's fighting a war from the frontlines. In the few hours where he's not risking his life from a Mad King's assassins and a thousand swords aching for his blood, letting him drink and whore... well, that's more than understandable.

He fucked every whore in the Peach while thinking his betrothed had been raped. Sleeping with one of those women would have been understandable. He crossed the line from understandable to disgusting.

C) Robert was TRASHED when he took that Florent girl to Stannis' bed. he had no idea whose bed he was getting into.

Maybe he should refrain from drinking then, since he clearly can't handle his liquor? I don't count drunkenness as an excuse for that kind of behavior; it was simply appalling and shows what a self-absorbed person he is and his lack of regard and respect for those around him. What the heck kind of jackass treats their own sibling that way?

And Cersei had already had 10 years to wear him into a nub.

So its Cersei's fault that he screwed around in Stannis' wedding bed? :lol:

d) Cersei was the arch-bitch to end all arch-bitches. she dared question him in a matter that was far, far, far, beyond her purview, and she'd gone out of her way to humiliate him in front of his court. there's no telling how many times she'd done that before we see Robert react... which may well have been the first time he'd done so.

We know that he brutalized and hurt her during sex. We know that he showed no regard for her feelings from the first. We know that he'd beaten her in the past. I understand that Robert is bad-ass and all, but I thought we'd made it past the days when it was the woman's fault her husband decided to beat her and now recognize that its the man's (or violent spouse of either sex) lack of self-control and anger-management issues that are responsible for domestic violence. Only a coward beats on someone weaker than s/he.

[undertow]

What's wrong with Myrcella and Tommen? And perhaps with some love and proper discipline, Joffrey would have turned out better. He clearly idolized Robert.

Maybe my use of the plural was wrong, but what did Robert do to Myrcella and Tommen, other than be inattentive? And I would disagree with Joffrey idolizing Robert; I would attribute his worship instead to Sandor. Cersei had her claws too deep into Joffrey for him to become anything other than a sociopath. Perhaps Robert could have changed some of that with a little attention to Joffrey, but I doubt it. If anything, Robert should have hit Cersei and Joffrey harder. Just a wee bit harder, and we wouldn't have to worry about most of this story.

[Alexia]

Maybe my use of the plural was wrong, but what did Robert do to Myrcella and Tommen, other than be inattentive?

He certainly didn't love them, which is the point I was making.

And I would disagree with Joffrey idolizing Robert; I would attribute his worship instead to Sandor.

Joffrey parrots everything Robert said and tried to impress him and be like him. From sending a knife after Bran b/c Robert said he should be put out of his misery, to telling Sansa how he could have her b/c his father had any whore he wanted, to his contempt for Cersei and his derogatory comments about the weak hearts of women. He was desparate for his father's attention - look who he brought those kittens to show them to.

If anything, Robert should have hit Cersei and Joffrey harder.

Posts like this make me fear for the world. But you are right, we'd be facing a very different story and war after Jaime Lannister cut off Robert's abusive hands and shoved it down his domesticly violent throat, or Cersei carried through on her threats and killed Robert in his sleep.

Cersei's no saint, but Robert is responsible for his own actions and decisions. As are we all.

[undertow]

He certainly didn't love them, which is the point I was making.

Joffrey parrots everything Robert said and tried to impress him and be like him. From sending a knife after Bran b/c Robert said he should be put out of his misery, to telling Sansa how he could have her b/c his father had any whore he wanted, to his contempt for Cersei and his derogatory comments about the weak hearts of women. He was desparate for his father's attention - look who he brought those kittens to show them to.

Posts like this make me fear for the world. But you are right, we'd be facing a very different story and war after Jaime Lannister cut off Robert's abusive hands and shoved it down his domesticly violent throat, or Cersei carried through on her threats and killed Robert in his sleep.

Cersei's no saint, but Robert is responsible for his own actions and decisions. As are we all.

Well, Robert wasn't the best of father figures. However, if Joffrey wanted to please his father, he would have dueled Robb at Winterfell, and, win or loss, he would have had as a positive. A non-frontal attack is an affront to his father. Joffrey wasn't raised by his father but by his mother. My aunt is just like Cersei, an overprotective bitch who refused to allow her eldest boy to grow up. But that's out of place. As for the argument for Joffrey's respect towards Sandor, refer to that thread.

Either way, I meant to be a little humorous, but, in hindsight, the sooner Cersei's and Joffrey's death, the better.

and Cersei pretty much ignores Tommen and Myrcella as well, if I remember correctly. Of course, Joffrey's death changes this.

[undertow]

Well, Robert wasn't the best of father figures. However, if Joffrey wanted to please his father, he would have dueled Robb at Winterfell, and, win or loss, he would have had as a positive. A non-frontal attack is an affront to his father. Joffrey wasn't raised by his father but by his mother. My aunt is just like Cersei, an overprotective bitch who refused to allow her eldest boy to grow up. But that's out of place. As for the argument for Joffrey's respect towards Sandor, refer to that thread.

Either way, I meant to be a little humorous, but, in hindsight, the sooner Cersei's and Joffrey's death, the better.

The sooner Cersei carries out her threat to murder Robert, the more Stannis's claim gains.

[nategator]

Rhaegar would have become King, Robert and Lyanna would have some children, Robert more than Lyanna, and the whole fricken world would have been doomed.

Dany wouldn't have awoken the dragons, Jon wouldn't be alive (R = L = J) and the Others would have swept the race of men from the face of Westeros. All in all it'd be a much more boring story.

No Neddard + Cat, since Brandon wouldn't have been murdered. Dany would still have woken the dragons since she is the Prince That Was Promised. It is known.

[Maia]

demanding that Robert stay "faithful" to Lyanna when they aren't married is not only a bit unrealistic, but is more than a tad demanding, particularly when he's fighting a war from the frontlines.

Then he shouldn't pretend that she was his great love and that he was doing all of this for her. IMHO, Robert was unable to truly love and that was his main tragedy.

she dared question him in a matter that was far, far, far, beyond her purview,

And fiery Lyanna would have been a good little wife and wouldn't have "dared"? Please. Lyanna was as interested in male pursuits as Cersei, perhaps more, even if for different reasons. No happy end there.

As to kings and nobility - sure, they cheated on their wives massively with few exceptions, but then, nobody should be claiming that they tended to have happy marriages as a result.

STDs?

You may not have noticed, but they are a concern. Eggs' brother Daeron and one of Tywin's brothers died of them and of course they could have deleterious effects on the wife's and children's health, too.

AND (as is commonly assumed, but not proven) SHE RAN OFF WITH A MARRIED MAN!!!

So? Even Ned agreed that that the married man was not a philanderer - unlike Robert. There would have been only one other woman in his life, not a legion.

Alexia:

I also sympathized with Cersei in AGOT. Then less and less in every subsequent book. Still, her bitterness is understandable, in part.

[Datepalm]

I think the presence of Lyanna, a woman more mature than he ever would've become, could've done a lot of good for the evolution of the man and king. We know the things Jaime would do for love...what about Robert?

I don't get this. Lyanna, to the contrary, comes off as massively immature. Wild, temepestuous, strong willed, boyish, emotional... ran off with a married man...Where is "willing to dedicate her life to being mature caretaker for drunken sot" in here?

[Lady Blackfish]

My point is that it is my suspicion that a Lyanna-Robert marriage may well have been happy. Which was the point of the thread.

Yeah, I got your point :) I just read the point of Lyanna's story differently than you do. W.R.T. her role in the story, she's not a person so much as a fable, there's nothing very real about her, she's uber romanticized, and probably at the heart of this difference of opinion, some readers take her romanticization straight and others think it's there to be deconstructed (I'm in the latter group).

Anyway, she may have been happy, yes, but I don't see any particularly likelihood for it, and the impetus for insisting that she would have been seems to come only from Robert's fantasies (the vibe I get from ASOIAF is that GRRM has a lot of heady romantics who often ignore reality because of what they want to believe; YMMV). Moreover, I would say that Lyanna's unwillingness to be happy with her fate at marrying Robert, her father's choice, is the whole point of her inclusion in the series (there is a lot in various female characters' stories about the lack of choice, even if the fate written for them is one of supposed honor and esteem -- it's still not their choice). People change, she may have changed, but in the context Martin has given for her, it would have represented a "taming" of her individual spirit. Which is not wholly sympathetic.

Because really, Robert can be inspired by her independent nature all he wants. That doesn't mean that that independent nature was inclined to want him back. We have only little to indicate she was unhappy with Robert, but we have none in the other direction whatsoever.

Robert slept with many women but only obsessed over Lyanna. Really feel like there had to have been something there beyond simple beauty for him to romanticize her so.

Even if it's her wild, strong spirit that he was attracted to, though, that doesn't mean he realistically perceived that spirit. It's entirely possible that that's the wild spirit that impelled her to run away from him, to Rhaegar. So Robert, it seems to me, has a superficial perception of her nature, in a sense. He romanticizes it much like Disney romanticizes the rebellious nature of beautiful princesses who daringly defy their fathers, blah blah.

I think when we're talking love (and it's clear he did love Lyanna), it's never a question of beauty alone. It's the sum of a set of qualities.

I think ASOIAF does a good job of questioning what love even is, if subtly. Since I tend to get deflated from arguing semantics, I'll just say that love, as is presented in ASOIAF, isn't always a good thing, it doesn't always guarantee happiness, and it doesn't always mean that someone is being perceived for who they truly are. For some values of "love", Jorah loved Lynesse, Petyr loved Cat, I believe them when they say that, doesn't make it sensible to say that Lynesse or Cat could safely be predicted to have been happy just because that was true. I probably shouldn't have suggested Robert loved only Lyanna's physical traits, but neither do I think that we're supposed to read a line like "You never knew the iron underneath" and think that Robert had a deep understanding of Lyanna. If Lyanna wasn't going to be happy with Robert, and if she is supposedly this strong, untameable wild spirit, I don't really see her just swallowing her fate. That's the thing that I find contradictory: if Robert loved her wild strength, and if that's the kind of wild strength that inclined her to defy her socially prescribed fate in the name of love, then why do people think she would have wanted to stick around and mother Robert and be his angel of the home?

I think there's a tendency to say "Robert is what he is", but part of me wonders if: "Robert is what he is....because Lyanna died." I think she was the one person who could've inspired him to be a better man.

Well see, I think Lysa Tully needed a mother, or an older sister. Someone to offer her companionship and commiseration and understanding of a woman's lot. Does it make sense to say that Lysa Tully isn't responsible for her own actions though? Everyone could have been affected by other people, and everyone has to deal with the cards they're dealt. And for everyone, how you deal with that says a lot about you.

Ned also was rumored to have been in love with Ashara Dayne (a love so strong it made her kill herself?), Hoster Tully was never the same after his wife died (the light went out of him), Jorah lost his first wife to death too and seems to have been very in love with her IIRC. They dealt better than Robert, didn't they? I think it's the romantic impulse to take the sheer sense of size in Robert's character and use that to imbue his love for Lyanna with some kind of magic, but ... I'm not sure that's true. Which is not to say that life couldn'tve been different for Robert if he married Lyanna instead of Cersei, plus I agree that it would have been a less disastrous marriage. But there's something a little wish fulfillment-like in Robert's musings that Lyanna would have made his life perfect.

Think there's little question her death fundamentally changed Tywin...so why not Robert?

I agree that these big life events affect people, but where we might disagree is whether or not it changes who the person responding to the events fundamentally is.

this is Westeros. There are very different attitudes towards fidelity, particularly amongst the nobility.

I think Lyanna is supposed to represent an indictment, of sorts, of the attitudes of Westeros. Even if they're prevailing, they're not necessarily meant to be sympathetic.

--------------------

I don't think the perception of Lyanna suggested in this thread is consistent. Is she mature for her melancholy, resigned utterance to Ned, "Love is sweet, but it does not change a man's nature"? Or is she impetuous and wild, the kind to ignite Robert's imagination with her unwillingness to accept fate like chattel?

[nategator]

Maybe my use of the plural was wrong, but what did Robert do to Myrcella and Tommen, other than be inattentive? And I would disagree with Joffrey idolizing Robert; I would attribute his worship instead to Sandor. Cersei had her claws too deep into Joffrey for him to become anything other than a sociopath. Perhaps Robert could have changed some of that with a little attention to Joffrey, but I doubt it. If anything, Robert should have hit Cersei and Joffrey harder. Just a wee bit harder, and we wouldn't have to worry about most of this story.

When a little kid murders kittens, he generally turns out to be a psycho. In Westeros, incest can produce crazy-evil, which is disastrous if that person ends up king. Joffrey was a lost cause and should have been killed/sent to the Wall much, much sooner.

[undertow]

Alexia:

I also sympathized with Cersei in AGOT. Then less and less in every subsequent book. Still, her bitterness is understandable, in part.

This I don't understand. What has Cersei ever done to elicit sympathy? GRRM has depicted her, from the beginning, as a terrible mother and a sociopath. The only thing that's changed over the course of the books is her competency, which took a contrived (in my view) swan dive.

[nategator]

I think Robert and Lyanna, if they had married, would have been a somewhat difficult and mismatched marriage, but one that would have ultimately worked.

Why? Because in GRRM's Westeros true love doesn't work out. And Rhaegar and Lyanna had fallen in love post-Knight of the Laughing Tree. I'm inclined to think that after the KotLT fled, Rhaegar chased the knight, discovered that it was Lyanna, and they fell in love. Rhaegar then returned, won the tourney, and crowned Lyanna queen of beauty.

If Lyanna had done her duty, and if Rhaegar had accepted, then odds are Robert's Rebellion would have never turned out. Assuming this development did not prevent the birth of the Prince Who Was Promised, then somehow there would have been a successful Stark + Targ match down the line but that is pure speculation.

The reason why Robert and Lyanna would have grudgingly worked is because such marriages usually do in Westeros. The only exception being Cersei and Robert, although arguably that marriage was poisoned by Cersei pursuing love over duty by hooking up with Jaime. Cat + Ned (neither of whom deeply loved each other, especially Ned who desired Ashara Dayne) and Genna Lannister + Emmon Frey are perfect examples. But when folks follow their heart and pursue love over duty, disaster ensues. Doran Martell + Mellario Norvis was a rare love match that ultimately failed. Jenny + Robb led to the Red Wedding. Peytr + Lysa leads to the poisoning of Jon Arryn and Lysa's death, Cersei + Jaime = Joffrey, enough said. Sansa + Joffrey (thereby not fulfilling her duty to House Stark) = beheading of Ned and the start of the War of the Five Kings. Tyrion + Tysha = defiling of Tysha.

Choosing love over duty, so far, in GRMM's Westeros usually ends in tragedy not happiness. Which is interesting because it breaks so dramatically with the cliche in the fantasy genre among others that following one's true heart results in a perfect match instead of being paired with someone that would have brought about evil. GRRM takes an interesting thematic position here and he seems pretty consistent. What I am very interested in seeing is whether he stays true to this theme beyond the beginning and middle (when he needs to keep his characters miserable instead of happily ever after) and allows love matches to have some degree of success in the end.

Right now in Westeros, sad to say, romantic love kills.

[Yakman]

This I don't understand. What has Cersei ever done to elicit sympathy? GRRM has depicted her, from the beginning, as a terrible mother and a sociopath. The only thing that's changed over the course of the books is her competency, which took a contrived (in my view) swan dive.

Cersei coming to Eddard in the Godswood is one of the most sympathetic--and best--scenes in the series.

She's entirely sympathetic, and both her and Eddard show who they really are--despite his love for Robert, and his duties as Hand, he's willing to accept that she loves her children so much that she be given a chance to run before he tells Robert. She comes to him, and acknowledges not only her crime, but her deep and unending love for her children, who would have been murdered, along with her and Jaime.

[Alexia]

Cersei coming to Eddard in the Godswood is one of the most sympathetic--and best--scenes in the series.

Agree. Also, her conversation with Sansa during the Battle of the Blackwater. On one hand, she's completely Cersei, taking her fears out on a young girl. On the other, you see how terrified she is of what will happen if Stannis takes the city (with good reason...remember Elia?) and its plain Sansa wore on her last nerve with her naivete. At the same time, her resentment of the cards she was dealt in life shows through plainly. In my opinion, that was Cersei's greatest scene.

[Maia]

The reason why Robert and Lyanna would have grudgingly worked is because such marriages usually do in Westeros. The only exception being Cersei and Robert,

Don't forget Lysa and Jon Arryn! Also, doesn't Genna and Emmon Frey's marriage "work" only because Emmon is more of a doormat than Robert and is also deathly afraid of her family? Finally, isn't the story of Aegon the Unworthy and Naerys pretty much the opposite to Robert and Lyanna? I.e. the woman _did_ sacrifice her great love to do her duty... and her philandering husband still gave her hard time and was in no way improved.

[bearisland]

There have been some excellent and fascinating arguments already in this thread about why Lyanna would have been profoundly unhappy with Robert, most of which argue based on authorial intent for the characters and for the author's points about love and marriage overall. Disregarding authorial intent for a moment, I want to add that I think that arranged marriages of duty like Ned and Cat's work as well as they do because it's based on duty for both of them. I suspect it's easier to eventually love someone you married for duty if she/he is also coming to it from a "let's make the best of this" situation. But Robert + Lyanna would have been an even worse marriage, in my opinion, than Robert + Cersei, because in this case only one person married for duty and the other is madly infatuated. Delusionally, almost stalkerishly infatuated, as I read Robert, with his perception of Lyanna that bears no relation at all to the memories her brother has of her. And I think that would have not only have prevented almost anyone in Lyanna's situation from coming to love him, but made her come to hate and fear him. Given his strength of feeling I am certain she would not have had the success keeping him out of her bed that Cersei did. How appalling it would be, to have an obsessed admirer who was entitled to rape you any time he felt like it.