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A Thread for Small Questions III


Lady Blackfish

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I have another question. How the Vale of Arryn and the Mountains of the Moon fall under Targaryen rule ? Is there some battle ? A kneeling king ? I don't remember anything about it reading the books.

It's not stated but quite easy to understand. The king in the vale would have retreated ultimately to the (impreginable) Eyrie. Aegon would then pick a good time in the summer season (no snows to inhibit him) to fly a dragon to the top and melt the fortress to slag. Aegon could even bring his 2 sisters along on their own dragons as well. No doubt the king in the vale realized this and decided to bend the knee. The wise choice indeed. An army in the vale means nothing when dragonflame is streaming through every window in your fortress. Black Harren could tell you all about it (if he hadn't died).

A much better question to ask is why Dorne did not yield to Aegon. They bent the knee later to another king.

Other-in-law...can you weigh in on that?

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Red gold is simply gold alloyed with copper, which gives it that reddish hue. The more copper in the alloy, the redder the color is.

What you say makes sense but it does not explain why the kindly man told Arya that Valyarian slaves mined for red gold. As an alloy the material would have been worked at Valaryan forges as yellow gold and copper were combined, not mined as a raw good as the kindly man describes.

Could it be that Martin made a mistake in his prose? Perhaps the kindly man meant to say that the slaves mined for "Silver, yellow gold, and copper".

And there is still the question as to the "unknown substance" that the slaves searched for that was worked into the spellforged steel to create Valaryan Steel. Perhaps the next book will shed some light on that.

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Don't suppose Dany was actually Willem Darry's kid do you? I mean he did always refer to her as "My little princess." :P Run with it my fellow conspiracy theorists, run!

No sorry. I'm not running with that. Darry was a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to father no children (recall Arys Oakheart's guilt when he lay with Arianne Martell). Also, Arthur Dayne told Eddard Stark at the tower of joy that Darry was a man of honor. From that statement alone I am certain Darry would never lave laid with the Queen.

Also, Jaime has a memory of the mad king not calling upon his wife often, but at a time around 9 months before Dany's birth he guarded the door to the queen's chambers when Arys got it in his crazy mind that he wanted to rape his wife. Jaime thought about going in to defend the queen before he was told that his duty was to protect the Queen from all threats....EXCEPT the king. This occured just before the War of the Usurper and nine months later Dany was born on Dragonstone.

So yea...Dany is the daughter of the king.

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Darry was a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to father no children (recall Arys Oakheart's guilt when he lay with Arianne Martell).

Sorry but no, Darry wasn't in the Kingsguard, the lines of the White Bull, I think, state that he isn't and that the KG doesn't flee, but it's true he has honor. However I'm convinced that Dany is Aerys daughter.

It's not stated but quite easy to understand. The king in the vale would have retreated ultimately to the (impreginable) Eyrie. Aegon would then pick a good time in the summer season (no snows to inhibit him) to fly a dragon to the top and melt the fortress to slag. Aegon could even bring his 2 sisters along on their own dragons as well. No doubt the king in the vale realized this and decided to bend the knee. The wise choice indeed. An army in the vale means nothing when dragonflame is streaming through every window in your fortress. Black Harren could tell you all about it (if he hadn't died).

Yes I think he bend the knee but why ? I stay convinced that using dragons to fight in the Mountains of the Moon isn't the best tactical choices: if dragons keep the same proportions as adult as they have at birth their wingspan is gigantic, which is not appropriate to fight in narrow valley, etc; also remember that dragons aren't immortal, many died in battle, I think that fighting the Vale would have a dire cost for the Targaryen.

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A much better question to ask is why Dorne did not yield to Aegon. They bent the knee later to another king.

Other-in-law...can you weigh in on that?

At a guess - Aegon I did not pursue Dorne for the same reason every one else hesitates; logistical problems. Those great dragons are useful when there are ample supplies of food and water, but Dorne largely consists of wastes of rock and sand, and the Dornish are used to taking advantage of that against invaders. Aegon thought better of it, the Young Dragon did not, and in the end the Dornish had to be lured in through marriage.

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I understand Joffrey was older than Tommen and I also understand he was far more headstrong than Tommen, but I thought they're respective situations were the same (underage, requiring a Regent). Why was everyone in such a hurry to do everything Joffrey ever wanted and yet Tommen has to fight just to get a kitten???

In addition to all the other points brought up, there is also the point that Tommen actually is a decent child. One of Cersei's favourite methods of controlling Tommen is through his whipping boy, and it works because Tommen does not like to see others punished on his behalf.

Joffrey, charmer that he is, probably would not care to piss on Pate if Cersei put him on fire...

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StrongBelwas, on 28 August 2010 - 08:10 AM, said:

A much better question to ask is why Dorne did not yield to Aegon. They bent the knee later to another king.

Other-in-law...can you weigh in on that?

At a guess - Aegon I did not pursue Dorne for the same reason every one else hesitates; logistical problems. Those great dragons are useful when there are ample supplies of food and water, but Dorne largely consists of wastes of rock and sand, and the Dornish are used to taking advantage of that against invaders. Aegon thought better of it, the Young Dragon did not, and in the end the Dornish had to be lured in through marriage.

Actually we already have the answer in the books. I don't have the exact quote but it's something like: "Where everyone gathered or hid behind their walls, the dornishmen scattered and hid in the mountains where even the dragons could not find them."

Yet there could have been logistical problems too, but it's mainly the fighting style of Dorne, which is more a sort of guerilla that keeps Aegon out.

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At the Event Horizon Chat, GRRM answered my question on this topic:

The Dornishmen were protected by their mountains, but also by their style of fighting. They didn't assemble huge armies to face Aegon (like the Two Kings), nor hole up in impregnable castles (like Harren the Black). They melted away before the dragons, and returned to snipe and murder when they could. Guerrilla warfare, in other words.

The answer implies that Aegon did make an attempt, and the Dornishmen proved too elusive (and their country too inhospitable) for it to make sense. Rather than get mired down, he turned back and went home. I do imagine him proclaiming victory just for propaganda reasons.

My take on the Young Dragon is that the Dornishmen, having grown cocky over the fact that this boy king didn't even have dragons, forgot the lessons of their ancestors and tried to go toe-to-toe out of a misguided hunger for glory. But it may just be that Daeron was damned brilliant (Stannis gives a large part of the credit to Oakenfist -- who, doubtless, was executing an agreed-upon plan anyways -- but I'm suspicious that he may be biased towards the naval side of things). What broke his brief conquest was the fact that the Dornish went back to guerrilla resistance with a vengeance and bled the occupiers dry.

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Some additional things, looking over the past page:

1) Willem Darry was master at arms at the Red Keep. His brother Jonothor Darry was in the Kingsguard, and was killed at the Trident.

2) There are some naturally occuring alloys of gold (and other metals) in the real world, such as electrum (a gold-silver alloy, often with traces of copper). I'm not sure if gold-copper alloys ever occur naturally in real life. If it does, well, there's your answer. If it doesn't, we can take one of three things out of it: George made a mistake, or gold-copper alloys exist naturally (or at least, did so beneath the Fourteen Flames) in the setting, or the Kindly Man isn't a metallurgist and probably a previous Kindly Man once said to his pupil, 'They looked for silver, and yellow gold, and copper with which to make red gold', and by the present they've forgotten the 'copper to make' part. ;)

3) There is no reference that I'm aware of to "unknown substances" used in Valyrian steel swords, and certainly no mention of such a thing in the Kindly Man's tale.

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Ned Stark has said that she died of illness in the mountains, and I assume that is the public story.

Robert has explicitly said that he believes Rhaegar repeatedly raped Lyanna, and I suppose he presumes that this fact -- and the physical and mental stresses involved -- directly led to her death.

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Here's another small question. :) Targaryen women inherit after men - so father, sons, brothers, then daughters, then sisters, etc.

Danaerys is a woman. Now that Viserys is dead, she claims to be the last Targaryn heir. However - would Robert actually come before her? Can someone explain the finer points of inheritance law on this one?

Of course, it all comes down to competing claims and the army to back said claim, and Robert can be well said to have forfeited any claim after massacring the Targaryen household. But I'm wondering, had things gone down different and Danerys was the only Targaryen with no brothers or uncles, would Robert have had a strong claim to inherit ahead of her?

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2 questions...

Who is this great other and where is it mentioned?

Cold Hands says something like, "The last green seer," when talking about the 3EC. This has lead some people on these forums to believe that he is the last child of the forest. Where does it state that all the children are green seers? I thought only some of them where.

Edited by Ran: Please use the Spoiler BBcode. :)

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Danaerys is a woman.

What kind of crazy fan-theory is that!?

Now that Viserys is dead, she claims to be the last Targaryn heir. However - would Robert actually come before her? Can someone explain the finer points of inheritance law on this one?

That seems implausible to me, because Robert's claim relies on an entirely unique instance of feminism and anti-ageism in his argument. His grandmother -- Rhaelle Targaryen -- was the younger sister of the late Jaehaerys Targaryen (who was Daenerys's grandfather). Generally, the King's children come before the King's younger siblings -- you can see that by how Joffrey became King of Westeros upon Robert's death instead of, say, Renly and how Jaime Tyrion Cersei became Lord of Casterly Rock after Tywin's death instead of Tywin's little bro Kevan.

So, when Jaehaerys died, his throne didn't pass to his sister (Robert's grandmother) but to his children (Mad King Aerys and his sister/wife), and when they died the throne passed down to their child (Prince Rhaegar). The tricky part is that Rhaegar and his children (his legitimate heirs) died more or less at the same time. Solely because of that fluke, the throne didn't pass down to his children but passed sideways to his younger sibling (Viserys -- then later Daenerys herself). This would not have happened if Rhaegar's children had lived, and Daenerys would have never had a legal claim to the throne if not for Robert's Rebellion.

In order for Robert to come before Daenerys, King Jaeharys (his grandmother's brother and Daenerys's grandfather) would have had to die without producing any legitimate heirs. Since obviously that didn't happen, Robert's legal claim is as spurious as, well, as that of his own brothers, Stannis and Renly.

But, of course, all that really matters is weapons. :D

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Who is this great other and where is it mentioned?

Cold Hands says something like, "The last green seer," when talking about the 3EC. This has lead some people on these forums to believe that he is the last child of the forest. Where does it state that all the children are green seers? I thought only some of them where.

GO is mentioned by Melisandre.

I think 3EC isn't the last.

prologue mentioned a woman who went on the sea with lot of people because she had vision that there will be ships which will take them away

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Since we're spoilering stuff from ASOS for some reason...

There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light. .

You can read this speech in the third book, when Davos SPOILERSPOILER gets nailed for conspiracy to commit murder. And no, I didn't change anything; she really is that pretentious and overwrought.

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Since we're spoilering stuff from ASOS for some reason...

There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light. .

You can read this speech in the third book, when Davos SPOILERSPOILER gets nailed for conspiracy to commit murder. And no, I didn't change anything; she really is that pretentious and overwrought.

I didn't know exactly where the idea came from so I just wanted to make sure not to spoil anything for anyone.

I thought melisandre was referring to something else; not a physical entity at all which some here on the boards do. People talk of the great other like it is the king of the others and not their god. I guess this just kind of gets into opinion stuff.

So do/did all the children have green seer abilities?

What are the special abilities the faceless men have that we know about (obviously they can change their faces/appearance)?

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Special abilities like superpowers, right? I'm not sure if this falls under shapeshifting, but:

The Kindly Man from the fourth book had the ability to create an illusion that made his face look like a monstrous skull. It didn't resemble "true" shapeshifting; when Arya touched his face, the illusion melted away, which we've not seen when people come in contact with a shapeshifted Faceless Man

Outside of that, they seem to rely on non-supernatural but still pretty badass abilities. They're proficient in the use of poisons, are almost preternaturally relentless (the whole "a man takes a step and then another and then another and then another and then another and then a king dies" thing).

I thought melisandre was referring to something else; not a physical entity at all which some here on the boards do. People talk of the great other like it is the king of the others and not their god. I guess this just kind of gets into opinion stuff.

I don't think it is a physical entity either. I agree that it's more like a god counterpart of R'hllor, similar to the Storm King who opposes the Greyjoys' Drowned God (or, in real life, Ahriman and Ahura Mazda).

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