A Thread for Small Questions III

[Mad Monkey]

Small question:

Which characters proved to be very good in archery or take the bow as their primary weapon?

There's Anguy, a member of the Brothers without Banners who beat everyone at Eddard Stark's tournament.

[Datepalm]

There's Anguy, a member of the Brothers without Banners who beat everyone at Eddard Stark's tournament.

Theon appears to favour archery too. Other noted archers are Jalabahr Xho and Kojja Mo (Archery seems to be popular in the Summer Islands.) and Jon sometimes, or at least more than I can remember with any other major character.

[Ran]

Ygritte seemed to favor the bow. Balon Swann is said to be better with a bow than he is with any other weapon, though of course in battle he'll fight with the typical knightly arms. Alleras is an exceptional archer, too.

[lacuna]

Aggo, Daenerys' bloodrider, might be, if the gifts Dany gives her bloodriders are reflective of their skill sets. He gets a lavish dragonbone bow, while Jhogo is given a whip and Rakharo an arakh.

Or maybe it means nothing? Can't remember if his archery skills are mentioned outright.

[Alexia]

Aggo, Daenerys' bloodrider, might be, if the gifts Dany gives her bloodriders are reflective of their skill sets. He gets a lavish dragonbone bow, while Jhogo is given a whip and Rakharo an arakh.

Or maybe it means nothing? Can't remember if his archery skills are mentioned outright.

I was under the impression that in general, the Dothraki are horse archers and that is their strength overall moreso than the arakh.

[Mara Jade]

It matters to the readers. Would we consider Tyrion the same way if he'd slept with Sansa, though it was totally legal? (and not to get into the whole deabte, but shes terrified, was coorced into the marriage, is regualrly beaten, and her life is threatened on a daily basis, so i'd say by modern standards that would be rape.) It does matter to me , especially if he becomes a more prominent character, whether Lyn Crobray is just a gay guy with a thing for younger men (even granted that most westerosi would probably consider 14 or so a perfectly adequate age of consent) or someone who mollests children.

Very interesting. I never thought of it that way. Personally so much is made of women's oppression in these books that if Tyrion slept with Sansa I would not think of him any differently. How can anyone in these books be held to a standard they're ignorant of? After Dany's sexual escapades with Drogo I think any "modern standards" were thoroughly conditioned out of me. In fact I would have preferred Tyrion to have slept with Sansa because now she can be married off AGAIN to whomever her next manipulator (Petyr) wants. As a reader I'm tired of her being used as chattel, I'd like it to stop, but it's a huge part of the books, society, every female character, and her journey. Otherwise she wouldn't be a lady, just as knights without brutality wouldn't be knights. At least Tyrion IS a good guy (despite being across the sea now and Sansa's annoying difficulties recognizing good people under ugly faces).

Certainly it matters as to the mostly good or mostly evil-ness of the character "whether Lyn Crobray is just a gay guy with a thing for younger men (even granted that most westerosi would probably consider 14 or so a perfectly adequate age of consent) or someone who molests children." But character, how that would play in the plot & world of the books is as far as it goes for me. I really don't apply modern age standards. If I saw Dany, Jon, Arya* as children even though the society of the books does not it really confuses the intentions of the author and the plot. Sansa is surely held captive and abused, but she is no more a child than Dany, Jon, and Arya just because she's gentler. GRRM makes clear that Jon is in no way the youngest LC, in another drop in about age.

*I realize that Arya is considered a child by most, but for some reason it was my instinct to include her. Her cunning, killing, and the horrors she's seen...

[Alexia]

How can anyone in these books be held to a standard they're ignorant of?

Except Tyrion's not ignorant of it; he is fully aware that raping and hurting little girls is wrong and that's why he didn't do it. Matter of fact, he says himself that it would be wrong and cruel and Tywin never argues with that - he basically says, "who cares?"

but it's a huge part of the books, society, every female character, and her journey.

It is, but I think we're intended to realize that its wrong. Did anybody think Viserys was right in telling Dany that he would force her to sleep with the whole khalasar and their horses too if he had too? Did that not shape their perceptions in finding him to be a bad guy? What about the Tysha incident and how that factors into opinions on Tywin? Didn't people come to like Drogo because Dany cared for him and he stopped the abuse of her by Viserys? The Tyrells were so disturbed by Joffrey's treatment of Sansa that members of the family had him killed to stop it from happening to Margaery. I don't think abuse of women is ever depicted in a positive light in these books, nor are the characters who engage in it. Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is certainly not depicted positively, Sansa is terrified of him and the Lannisters threaten to have her dragged if she doesn't walk, Joffrey threatens to rape her during her wedding party, Tyrion himself is miserable (as well he should be), and the marriage is sold to him with the idea that he will take her inheritance after they have her family murdered. Sansa's brother talks about having Tyrion beheaded when he learns of the marriage. This is a clear cut, deliberate depiction of abuse.

Also, Jon was 17 when he became Lord Commander which is young but above the Westerosi age of majority. I consider the characters children if the other characters in the books do: so that covers Sansa and Arya. Dany is more ambiguous, she's still a legal child by Westerosi standards but in charge of her own destiny and without a guardian so I've been thinking of her as a adult (which she may be by the Dothraki standards, dunno).

[Evrach]

Small question:

Which characters proved to be very good in archery or take the bow as their primary weapon?

There is also Brynden Rivers - Bloodraven - too. He killed Daemon Blackfyre and his twins with his white weirwood longbow. :rolleyes:

[Mara Jade]

Except Tyrion's not ignorant of it; he is fully aware that raping and hurting little girls is wrong and that's why he didn't do it. Matter of fact, he says himself that it would be wrong and cruel and Tywin never argues with that - he basically says, "who cares?"

It is, but I think we're intended to realize that its wrong. Did anybody think Viserys was right in telling Dany that he would force her to sleep with the whole khalasar and their horses too if he had too? Did that not shape their perceptions in finding him to be a bad guy? What about the Tysha incident and how that factors into opinions on Tywin? Didn't people come to like Drogo because Dany cared for him and he stopped the abuse of her by Viserys? The Tyrells were so disturbed by Joffrey's treatment of Sansa that members of the family had him killed to stop it from happening to Margaery. I don't think abuse of women is ever depicted in a positive light in these books, nor are the characters who engage in it. Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is certainly not depicted positively, Sansa is terrified of him and the Lannisters threaten to have her dragged if she doesn't walk, Joffrey threatens to rape her during her wedding party, Tyrion himself is miserable (as well he should be), and the marriage is sold to him with the idea that he will take her inheritance after they have her family murdered. Sansa's brother talks about having Tyrion beheaded when he learns of the marriage. This is a clear cut, deliberate depiction of abuse.

I also think that everything that happens in the books is ok, except giving birth to shadow babies.

I kid.

I think you misunderstand me, and I don't see what anything you say has to do with age. Perhaps you should re-read my post. I said she was abused. I also discussed that it does influence the mostly-good or mostly-evil perceptions of a character. Sansa's challenges of being a woman in this society and her abuse as a hostage are discussed separately. I think you must have ran together somehow that being abused is just a woman's journey and I'm ok with that. None of these things are because of age, if they happened to anyone they'd be evil. I was talking about age only. Certain morals attached to specific ages are specific to their societies; I think you'd be hardpressed to explain to Westerosi why 17 is a better age of consent than 14. More people die earlier in this society, so they have sex earlier, so doing everything later makes no sense.

You say that Sansa was terrified of Tyrion on their wedding night, and well Tyrion certainly made that about age. From Sansa's perspective I thought we were meant to see that she doesn't have her mother with her to explain to her that being terrified is to be expected. She's terrified that he's a Lannister, but at that moment in bed she doesn't think he's going to kill her, she's terrified that he's ugly, something she personally has difficulty with, and of having sex, like any bride on her wedding night. Catelyn describes her own terror on her wedding night with Ned, a situation where there was no abuse. After I read those thoughts of Catelyn's I felt Sansa's loneliness going through this without her mother, not her age.

I'm sorry if I didn't explain my perspective adequately. I'm new here, I don't appreciate the attack, and it does discourage one from coming back to the board. Perhaps that's your intent. Regardless, I consider the issue shut.

[Alexia]

Mara Jade, I'm not sure how you interpreted my response as an attack because it was not intended as such. I interpreted your post to say that you would not think of a character differently even if he forced himself on another person and I believe that GRRM uses that sort of thing to show us that a character is evil. I'm snipping the parts I seem to have misunderstood...

if Tyrion slept with Sansa I would not think of him any differently.

How can anyone in these books be held to a standard they're ignorant of?

In fact I would have preferred Tyrion to have slept with Sansa

Having snipped...

I also discussed that it does influence the mostly-good or mostly-evil perceptions of a character.

You also said that you have preferred that Tyrion had forced himself on Sansa because at least he's a good guy. IMO, a good guy would not do such a thing.

Sansa's challenges of being a woman in this society and her abuse as a hostage are discussed separately.

Which is why I addressed them separately and responded to age in a different paragraph.

I was talking about age only.

In that case, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you would have preferred it if Tyrion had forced himself on Sansa which is the point I was addressing. Being 12 makes it worse (as Tyrion himself thinks) but it would make him a bastard regardless of how old she was. My musings about age were in the final paragraph; the portion you quoted was strictly a response to your thoughts about Sansa and abuse of women, not age. And your first paragraph appears to discuss "women's oppression," with your second discussing age, maturity, and modern standards.

I don't appreciate the attack,

Attack? That post was not intended as an attack, it was a response to your perspective on the way women are treated in the story that used examples of character perspectives to show that Sansa's treatment is not socially acceptable. Could you perhaps point out what you felt was an attack on you so that I can modify the post to delete it?

[mormont]

Alexia, MJ - if it's not a 'small question' any more, start another thread. ;)

[Cormac the Drunk]

This will probably wake the dragon, but I was wondering about the Night's Watch. I think it's a pretty safe bet that Bran's three-eyed crow is not an literal bird, but is most likely a member of the Night's Watch, perhaps something to do with their origins. It seems that mostly people from beyond The Wall refer to the Night's watch as 'crows'. And seeing as Bran opens his 'third eye' throughout the series, it stands to reason, that this Three-Eyed Crow would be a person of similar abilites, perhaps Uncle Benjen? I used to subscribe to the theory that Coldhands was Benjen, but after re-reading Bran's last chapter in ASOS, Sam states that Coldhands was sent to find Bran, to me it seems unlikely that Benjen would be someone to do the fetching. What do you think? :cheers:

[DizoakiusMaximus]

This will probably wake the dragon, but I was wondering about the Night's Watch. I think it's a pretty safe bet that Bran's three-eyed crow is not an literal bird, but is most likely a member of the Night's Watch, perhaps something to do with their origins. It seems that mostly people from beyond The Wall refer to the Night's watch as 'crows'. And seeing as Bran opens his 'third eye' throughout the series, it stands to reason, that this Three-Eyed Crow would be a person of similar abilites, perhaps Uncle Benjen? I used to subscribe to the theory that Coldhands was Benjen, but after re-reading Bran's last chapter in ASOS, Sam states that Coldhands was sent to find Bran, to me it seems unlikely that Benjen would be someone to do the fetching. What do you think? :cheers:

I agree with the assumption that the TEC isn't a literal bird, or even an animal. But rather some sort of warg (like the wilding who could control the eagle, or like Bran's already burgeoning ability to "posess" Summer and Hodor) that is trying to get Bran to where he/she/it is in order to pass on information or some-such. The other weird possibility is that the TEC is some part of Bran's subconscious, and that HE is telling himself that he needs to do these things. If the TEC is a member or somehow related to the NW, then who would it be? (Obviously thats a dumb question for me to ask, but if they have someone who can warg out and do telepathy and stuff, would the NW not know about it? If they do, why doesn't Jon know? If they don't, what are this guy/girls motivations?

I don't think Coldhands is Benjen, although it is possible. If he was "sent" to find Bran, that means someone is pulling Coldhands strings, and it might be Benjen (or Benjen is some sort of non-evil semi-sentient version of a wight that now rides an Elk around and saves fat kids from wights)

Sorry, I realize I didn't really answer any of your questions (and definitely asked a few myself)

[Mara Jade]

I think questions of the TEC, who is Coldhands, and who sent him don't have answers (so might not be small questions). I certainly think the TEC is a person and has something to do with the Night's Watch, otherwise I feel like GRRM wouldn't have had them called crows. Feels like a lead-in.

[mormont]

Yes, while the identity of the three-eyed crow is a very interesting topic, a question that needs a theory to explain the potential answers isn't really the type of thing this thread is for. :)

[Guest Other-in-Law]

However there is a very short answer for why Benjen is unlikely to be the TEC: Jojen Reed met the TEC when he was little years before when he almost died from Greywater Fever. So for it to be Benjen, he would have to have been the TEC all the while we actually met him, rather than undergoing some magical awakening after being lost beyond the Wall.

But make a new thread by all means, if you want.

[schrecklich]

There is also Brynden Rivers - Bloodraven - too. He killed Daemon Blackfyre and his twins with his white weirwood longbow. :rolleyes:

Tyrion deserves at least a mention. He isn't necessarily a practiced marskman, but I'd say he has probably the most prominent scene involving a bow in the whole series.

[feardeathbywater]

Tyrion deserves at least a mention. He isn't necessarily a practiced marskman, but I'd say he has probably the most prominent scene involving a bow in the whole series.

And he's hit every shot he's taken. Best archer in the series (technically.)

[Seerow]

Been lurking the last few days, my first post is a pretty simple question:

I see a lot of people talking about UnGregor, who is presumably an undead gregor clegane, brought back to life by Qyburn doing some sort of necromancy. Is there anything in the books actually indicating he works with Necromancy or is capable of anything remotely close to this? Or is this just a popular fan theory?

I always took Qyburn to be an extremely inquisitive, extremely creepy guy, who has no problem torturing live people for whatever insight/experiment he is working on, but never took him as being prone to the arcane or thought that he might be making zombies. Basically I'm just wondering if there's something major I missed, or if UnGreg is just a popular fan theory.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Is there anything in the books actually indicating he works with Necromancy or is capable of anything remotely close to this?

Yes. aSoS appendix:

"-QYBURN, a chainless maester and sometime necromancer"

He also related his reasoning on why ghosts could be real to Jaime, and when he talks to cersei about the venom used on Gregor he says:

"But this poison...it would be useful to know more about it would it not? Send a knight to slay a knight and an archer to kill an archer, the smallfolk often say. To combat the black arts..." He did not finish the thought, but only smiled at her.

Shortly after that he admits that his expulsion from the Citadel was because he had been vivisecting humans. So we have him called a necromancer, his interest in what remains behind after death, evidence of ruthless cruelty to living human subjects in pursuit of his studies, and he practically calls him self a dark sorcerer. Yeah, he's a necromancer.