Westeros Blog: Multi-ethnic Dothraki?

[Padraig]

I don't think that I can convince anybody around here, but I wanted to say that there are some elements that can appear offensive and unintentional racist because the Dothraki do not exist in a vacuum, and their portrayal is one of the more problematic aspect of the books.

Yes. Well. I don't see what the casting directors (or even GRRM originally) can do to assuage your fears.

Should Westeros have been full of Asian/ African and Native Americans as well as whites? Make the Dothraki white? Given the context of the story, i'm not sure how it would work but as it is.

Anyhow, we'll see how it all works out in less than a year. :)

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Maybe they're actually trying to show the Dothraki as a more tolerant and cosmoplitan, in some ways, compared to the backwards, inward looking, homogenous westerosi culture.:) Optimism, optimism!

I see your point that now the problematic "barbaric" culture isn't merely going to be speecific, but serve as an umbrella to anyone "dark and exotic". I would expect them, if they're taking a multi-racial (logical enough, I suppose) route to go contrariwise and now add some caucasians to the mix as well, just as random background spear carriers. If the dothraki are intermarrying with captured summer islanders, they should be doing the same with those ever popular blonde Lyseni slave girls.

But all the Dothraki seem to do is fight, ride horses, steal, and have sex/rape. This is cosmopolitan to you? :worried:

[Sekhmet]

But all the Dothraki seem to do is fight, ride horses, steal, and have sex/rape. This is cosmopolitan to you? :worried:

That's often how the Huns and Mongols are pictured. I think any culture is more than that!

Certainly Genghis Kahn and Atilla are very much more than that. I imagine that the Dothraki culture takes after them.

Yet the Mongols and Huns had their claim to brutality as well. It was part of their great success.

I just think that an assortment of Riders will do well to portray the Dothraki. It will show that a man is judged by his horse, his skills, and not by his skin. Rather than being racist, it's quite the opposite!

[Red Sun]

Regarding the multiethnical Dothraki, let's see how it plays out. I hope the optimism is justified and not my scepticism. :)

That's often how the Huns and Mongols are pictured. I think any culture is more than that!

There lies one of my general problem with the Dothraki. When she lives with them for quite a long time, Dany should be able to identify indivuduals and have (mundane) interactions with them, so that it becomes apparant that there is more to the culture than "fight, ride horses and sex/rape". Regarding the real Mongolians, we don't have accounts from the those who lived among them. However, we do have such accounts from the Mongolians, and those Francisans, who are explicit outsiders, give glimpses into a rather complex society.

[Sekhmet]

There lies one of my general problem with the Dothraki. When she lives with them for quite a long time, Dany should be able to identify indivuduals and have (mundane) interactions with them, so that it becomes apparant that there is more to the culture than "fight, ride horses and sex/rape". Regarding the real Mongolians, we don't have accounts from the those who lived among them. However, we do have such accounts from the Mongolians, and those Francisans, who are explicit outsiders, give glimpses into a rather complex society.

Try going to this excellent Genghis Kahn museum exhibit when it comes to your neck of the woods and I think it will change your opinion!

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Sekhmet, the Dothraki aren't Mongols. Genghis Khan does not feature in the series. They are a fantasy culture.

Seriously now.

[Red Sun]

Try going to this excellent Genghis Kahn museum exhibit when it comes to your neck of the woods and I think it will change your opinion!

Intesting exhibition, even though I have some problems with the featured paintings ;)! However, my point still is that there is more to Mongolian culture than "riding horses, fighting and sex/rape". ;) However, I feel that we are somehow talking over each others head, because my problems are the narrative tropes of Dany's story, her interaction with the people around her and the dimensions or logic of Dothraki culture, not the historical image of Tshingis Chan.

[Sekhmet]

Sekhmet, the Dothraki aren't Mongols. Genghis Khan does not feature in the series. They are a fantasy culture.

Seriously now.

Yes, I know. But didn't you, at least in the smallest way, think of the Mongols when you read those chapters? Doesn't have to be an exact match. But the Mongols and the Huns come closest in my mind.

Spirito, I just don't see how a racially homogeneous Dothraki horde solves your problems.

And on exotic. Isn't anything different considered exotic by some?

[Red Sun]

Spirito, I just don't see how a racially homogeneous Dothraki horde solves your problems.

And on exotic. Isn't anything different considered exotic by some?

Regarding the first point, some arguments made by you and Datepalm give me a little optimism that it could actually be interesting, if done in an interesting way. And as I said, I have not problems with multiethnic groups per se, most "ethnicities" started out as such anyway. ;)

Regarding the second point, I feel uneasy by many narrative tropes that have their roots in colonial perspectives and 19th century literary stereotypes, because they are pervasive up till now and do still harm to people who are not considered the default in most literature, i. e. white and often male. That's not the point of this thread, but it is the root of my unease. However, I do appreciate the points you made, and I know that my reasoning comes out as overthinking, but this is nothing I can simply shake off, so let's just end this now and in friendly disagreement, because we'll start to run in circles. :)

[Datepalm]

Regarding the first point, some arguments made by you and Datepalm give me a little optimism that it could actually be interesting, if done in an interesting way. And as I said, I have not problems with multiethnic groups per se, most "ethnicities" started out as such anyway. ;)

I feel like they do have to adress it though - explain that the Dothraki have intermarried with many captured slaves or some such. (not really unlikely with a nomadic population - bedouins tend to run a pretty wide gamut of physical types, for example) and not just go for a hodgepodge of races as some kind of pandoras box of exoticism, like in 300 - the multi racialness of the Persians there was all to show how evil and decadent and colored they all were: an oriental menagerie with human skin color another aspect of the freakshow, compared to the clean cut, very white Sparftans.(and never a thought for the fact that this was likely a much more varied and interesting place than Sparta)

OTOH, a lot of the Dothrakis problematicness is in the source, but at least not that freak-show of humanity aspect. (Unlike in, say, Quarth, where variety does contribute to decadence and exoticism.)

[FilliamHMuffman]

HBO has some leeway with how they portray Dorne in the series. If they want to add more diversity to the casting, they could bring in actors of Arab and South Asian descent to play the Dornish. While it wouldn't be completely faithful to the books, neither is having black Dothraki, and it would add some balance to how nonwhite people are depicted in the series.

[Padraig]

HBO has some leeway with how they portray Dorne in the series. If they want to add more diversity to the casting, they could bring in actors of Arab and South Asian descent to play the Dornish. While it wouldn't be completely faithful to the books, neither is having black Dothraki, and it would add some balance to how nonwhite people are depicted in the series.

There are supposed to be 3 types of Dornish people, so that could work. But the ruling family did marry into the Targaryens (and vice versa), so they are unlikely to look very different from the rest of Westeros.