Westeros Blog: Multi-ethnic Dothraki?

[Westeros]

It seems likely that the production for HBO’s Game of Thrones has decided to present the Dothraki culture as a multi-ethnic one, a realization that dawned on us today when an Irish actor of African origin, Yare Jegbefume,

[Spastic Plastic]

Please, please, please say they're not doing that. I want the Dothraki to be like Mongols, and not token blacks.

It would feel ridiculous, and there would be lots of unintentional racism.

[daimonion]

It would feel ridiculous, and there would be lots of unintentional racism.

How is that possible? Can only black people be victims of racism? Unintentional or not? I don't see how casting people of a mogol-like ethnicity would be "better" in that respect.

Either way - as long as they're not too far cast from Momoa, it would be okey. The guy looks part black, i guess, so this seems rather obvious.

[Ran]

Momoa doesn't really look mulatto to me, to be honest. He's pretty strongly Hawaiian/Pacific Islander in appearance. The Dothraki don't look Mongolian, for that matter -- much too tall, skin the wrong color, faces apparently not so flat.

It seems to me that the upshot of this is that:

a ) It doesn't really matter to the plot,

b ) it opens the door to more actors, so you get a wider selection of talent,

c ) it highlights the foreignness of the Dothraki.

Historically, horse nomads defined themselves and their fellow travellers primarily by lifestyle rather than ethnicity. The Huns and the Mongols, to pick two examples, readily confederated with other horse nomad tribes against more settled, agrarian groups. So that the Dothraki are, in fact, defined more by a shared culture rather than a shared ethnicity fits this historical model pretty well.

It's obviously a change from the novels, where the Dothraki are ethnically homogeneous (tall, copper skin, almond-shaped eyes), but as per point (a), it's simply not important to the plot. It just matters that they're foreign.

[Ran]

Here, BTW, is another actor who seems likely to have auditioned (he stated he was auditioning for a project that involved Northern Ireland, the U.S., and Morocco): Errol Clarke

[Red Sun]

While the idea of an culturally, but not ethnically homogenous group is interesting per se, within the storylines and the setting of ASOIAF, it just adds to the exotism. And I do find it very unsettling that it will just highlight the perception of dark skinned people being "Barbarians", which is already so stereotypical that it does reek of unintentional racism. I do think that it makes the already exoticed "East" even more problematic, especially with the visuals of Dany as the super white girl among Barbarians.

If the Dothraki culture was really well-thought, instead of just being "foreign" and "barbarian", I wouldn't have such a problem with them being not ethnically homogenous.

[Brude]

I want the Dothraki to be like Mongols, and not token blacks.

The physical description of the Dothraki in the books was meant to be sort of Native American-looking. Their culture is very much based on the Mongols and other horse tribes of that region, of course, with certain fantasy flairs.

[daimonion]

And I do find it very unsettling that it will just highlight the perception of dark skinned people being "Barbarians", which is already so stereotypical that it does reek of unintentional racism.

I think it's unintentional racism to say that they can't be black since they're barbarians. This attitude makes race matter in an unsettling way.

I expect some controversy too, but if noone dares, then we'll never move forward.

[Sekhmet]

I like the idea of presenting the Dothraki as a mixed people, much like the Cubanos. It's their nomadic horse culture that holds them together.

Also, let's face it, as the Mongols conquered, I'm sure they intermarried or interbred with the conquered. I think that fits quite well with the description of their city with it's conquered god statues.

[Red Sun]

I think it's unintentional racism to say that they can't be black since they're barbarians. This attitude makes race matter in an unsettling way.

I expect some controversy too, but if noone dares, then we'll never move forward.

I guess different people react differently to certain tropes. I tried to explain that my uneasiness stems for the entire bundle of tropes that surround Dany, since they have their roots in colonial times and perspectives. The Dothraki are already a bundle of stereotypes, making them a culture of all sorts of dark skinned people doesn't seem like a good way to subvert these stereotypes.

I have to admit some of my worries come from being sceptic about the possible subtlety of the TV show. In the book, the halfformed picture of Dothraki society can be explained with Dany's limited perspective. The TV show will have to create an objective picture. I do already have some problems that the language is supposed to be a hybrid of languages that result from very different cultures (Russian, Turkish, Estonian, Inuktitut and Swahili), but all have the quality of sounding and looking "very alien" to English speakers. And I think it would be have been better to take inspiration from one real life culture and unse it to give more depth to their portrayal, just like Westeros is inspired by relatively clear images/cultures from the European Middle Ages.

I almost hope that I'm wrong, though, and that the TV show will not simply contribute to the stereotyping of non white people that is so pervasive in Western Literature or Movies.

[Padraig]

The Dothraki are already a bundle of stereotypes, making them a culture of all sorts of dark skinned people doesn't seem like a good way to subvert these stereotypes.

If subverting sterotypes is what you are looking for, I can't see how either option is more or less preferable. Its just different from the books.

Similarly I don't undertsntand the language issue. The vast majority of people wouldn't realise that the Dothraki langague is a hybrid of very different cultures. And I don't see why assuming that they are Mongols or Native Americans means that they automatically have depth. (In fact, taking inspiration from one real life culture is rather boring. That's why for Westeros there are major differences between Dorne and the North for example).

[Ran]

Dothraki is not a hybrid of those languages, BTW. That's not really what they're doing with it. He was citing certain syntax and grammar and tonal things inspired by those other languages, but it is no way those languages. You'll not be able to pick out words of Russian or Estonian in Dothraki.

[Red Sun]

If subverting sterotypes is what you are looking for, I can't see how either option is more or less preferable. Its just different from the books.

Subverting is probably the wrong word, but I would rather not see yet another story in which only white people are multidimensional, while the dark skinned people only serve as exotic background. As I said, I hope that I'm wrong.

(In fact, taking inspiration from one real life culture is rather boring. That's why for Westeros there are major differences between Dorne and the North for example).

But both of them are inspired by real life cultures, like Medieval Spain or Northern England/Scotland. In a whole, Westeros is much more realised as a world, the characters are treated like more than one-dimensional stereotypes. If not the readers wouldn't have such a sympathetic reactions to the Cassel's who are barely tertiary characters. However, people barely feel that there is really a difference between the Bloodriders or Dany's handmaids. If they died, it wouldn't matter, nobody would feel sad like when Jory Cassel died.

I just don't see that happening with the Dothraki, especially not if they are even more exotised. It's not as if all Nomadic people had the same culture or structures of society. And even so, the Dothraki have almost nothing in common with (formerly) existing, functioning Nomadic people, starting with their weird gender relations.

My problem with the languages is the missing common denominator between them, except that all but Russian are Agglutinative Languages. If they hadn't mentioned Russian I would have understood the system, but so it really sounds just like an attempt to make it sound very foreign on a superficial level.

[fitheach]

Here, BTW, is another actor who seems likely to have auditioned (he stated he was auditioning for a project that involved Northern Ireland, the U.S., and Morocco): Errol Clarke

He (the actor in the picture linked above) looks North African to me, which fits with the vibe I imagine they were going for when filming in Morocco. I think they (casting) are seeing the Dothraki as a Mogol/Moorish/Berber people, rather than Native American people. As nomads I would imagine they would be mixed, some people looking one way- some another.

As an example look at the Afghan people, some look Asian, some look European, some Indian, some Middle Eastern...

[Ran]

Indeed. These are all multi-ethnic groups, and history shows it's fine. I think it'll work fine for the Dothraki as well. :)

[Padraig]

Spirito, you may be over-thinking the whole issue.

Subverting is probably the wrong word, but I would rather not see yet another story in which only white people are multidimensional, while the dark skinned people only serve as exotic background.

Are the Dothraki exotic background? Are you suggesting that making them less homogenous (in appearance) means they become so? And not been able to directly relate them to another (real) culture means they lack depth?

I don't get it. Sure, Westeros is more important to the story. Maybe your real complaint is with the books?

Yes, Westeros is inspired by a number of different cultures. The Dothraki are also. I can't see how it could be objectionable if GRRM used one or two more cultures when creating the Dothraki.

And the Cassel comment in misleading. I felt for Ned at seeing a friend die. I'd probably fee bad for Dany if one of her companions died also.

[Red Sun]

Spirito, you may be over-thinking the whole issue.

Perhaps :)

I don't get it. Sure, Westeros is more important to the story. Maybe your real complaint is with the books?

That comes pretty close. I do have already problems with book, but I fear that the TV show will make it worse, because it is a visual genre and less subtle than books, and stereotyping or exoticing the "Eastern" people has long tradition in Western visual genres.

And the Cassel comment in misleading. I felt for Ned at seeing a friend die. I'd probably fee bad for Dany if one of her companions died also.

If you look at the "Jory Cassel is awesome"-thread, you'll realise that a lot of people like the Cassels for themselves. I was certainly sad that he died, because he read like a real person. I'm just not sure if people would feel the same about Irri or Dorea or the Bloodriders. But that's certainly a diversion from the main topic.

I don't think that I can convince anybody around here, but I wanted to say that there are some elements that can appear offensive and unintentional racist because the Dothraki do not exist in a vacuum, and their portrayal is one of the more problematic aspect of the books. So, the hints I get from those casting decisions make me uneasy.

[Datepalm]

I don't think that I can convince anybody around here, but I wanted to say that there are some elements that can appear offensive and unintentional racist because the Dothraki do not exist in a vacuum, and their portrayal is one of the more problematic aspect of the books. So, the hints I get from those casting decisions make me uneasy.

Maybe they're actually trying to show the Dothraki as a more tolerant and cosmoplitan, in some ways, compared to the backwards, inward looking, homogenous westerosi culture.:) Optimism, optimism!

I see your point that now the problematic "barbaric" culture isn't merely going to be speecific, but serve as an umbrella to anyone "dark and exotic". I would expect them, if they're taking a multi-racial (logical enough, I suppose) route to go contrariwise and now add some caucasians to the mix as well, just as random background spear carriers. If the dothraki are intermarrying with captured summer islanders, they should be doing the same with those ever popular blonde Lyseni slave girls.

[Spastic Plastic]

I would cringe inwardly if Drogo's khalasar was made of both black men and blond ones. The big multicultural army, on its way to invade all-white Westeros.

Unintentional racism would be all over the place.

Just picture a scene that shows white Dany, white Jorah at her side, attended by her servile black handmaidens and obedient black bloodriders who have no characteristics beyond "the whip", "the bow", and "the arakh".

[Datepalm]

I would cringe inwardly if Drogo's khalasar was portrayed as a big multi-cultural army, with both black men and blond ones.

Unintentional racism would be everywhere.

Just picture a scene that shows white Dany, white Jorah at her side, attended by her servile black handmaidens and obedient black bloodriders who have no characteristics beyond "the whip", "the bow", and "the arakh".

Beacuse its just fine when they're asians/native americans/pacific islanders/whatever was eventually going on there.